General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
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Not even counting Miracle as an analog of Wish, I count 5 spells on the 9th level Cleric list that aren't on the Wizard list. Which ones are defining features of the Cleric class-- just the healing and resurrecting?
I'm not exactly sure why you're asking that question, but why not reverse it? Wizards get quite a few spells that aren't on the cleric list (17, to be exact). Clerics are arguably powerful enough, and giving them access to wizard spells as well would be a bit much, IMO.
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I find it interesting how the arrival of 4E and the announcement of Pathfinder motivates people to _really_ look into the problematic issues and not just post stuff intended as a mere house-rule, but actually consider ways to publish them. You guys should have been active 4-6 years ago (perhaps before 3.5 was in the works!)
As has been pointed out, some of us have been around since before 3.5 came out. The fact that WotC's stopped support of 3.5 is what has really allowed us to mess with larger rules issues (like the skill system) than modular bits and pieces like crafting, turning, and base classes. I can't speak for anyone else here, but only the (very likely) probability of a future Wizards release invalidating any work I've done prevented me from doing large-scale revisions before.
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Since the Paizo is trying to make core classes that will steer people fropm multiclassing...
It's not to discourage multiclassing so much as to encourage staying in a single class longer. Rampant multiclassing is usually the result of base classes having no features (or none worth taking), so the player chooses levels in another class for the desired features or because it fits the concept. With base classes having more features and being more clearly defined, it makes it more likely that players will be able to develop their PC within the scope of that class alone instead of a mix of umpteen different classes.
Getting on to the discussion at hand... if I'm understanding this right, all spell slots will just go into a big pool and you choose what spells you want from a given class list (assuming you're high enough level)? I think it could work (especially with the restrictions), but unfortunately for me, it invalidates the changes I made to the sorcerer - I gave sorcerers the ability to learn and cast any spell from any list, though they keep their spells known/per day. It greatly enhances what kind of sorcerer you want to play without seriously increasing their power, and makes them completely unique from wizards.
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
Multiclass spellcasters use only their highest applicable ability score to determine [...] the DC of their spells, regardless of which spell list they use to ready and cast spells.
I would instead use the appropriate stat for each spell list.
Since some spells cross lists, that's not as clean/easy.
I see what you mean... perhaps one could use the best applicable stat. It's an extra step, but it's a piece of information that can be written down along with the other info for each spell (duration, range, etc...). Of course, if the players normally just use the spells out of the PHB without writing down the basic stats, it doesn't work as well.
I don't really see that big of a multiclassing problem with non-spellcasters. Was there something in particular you see as a weakness in multiclassing, say, a fighter with a rogue, or a sohei with a swordsage?
No... to be honest I've only recently picked up the Beta version of the PFRPG and found very little in there about multiclassing. And since my friends and I are going to be playtesting soon... I was seeking opinions.
thanks, CP
__________________ I think I can, I think I can....I thought I could
I'd also like to reiterate that I think, "Discourage people from multiclassing" is a spurious design goal. [quote]
I was leaning in that direction anyways, so thanks (its more of a re-assurance than anything). I'm quite new to PFRPG and I like it. I just wish there some loose ends tide up (like multiclassing) and more care to editting (they left out the soften landings part in the jump-acrobatics skill). And yes... I agree with you about the spurious design goal thing, and perhaps go further to say it might deter some people from playing if their ability to complete customize their character is removed/discouraged
thanks, CP
__________________ I think I can, I think I can....I thought I could
Since Bards are said to be somewhat weak... wouldn't it be a good idea to take this opportunity to boost the Bard's ability and give it 3/4 casting?
That way you can have the same as BAB (+10, +15 and +20)... keeps the math cleaner too.
Or... you could just say that the Bard is a half caster with a little bonus... so +1/2 levels and every couple levels or so he gets an extra boost (based on class features, not BMB or BCL or whatever you call it).
Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not ready ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any readied spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name, including the mass cure spells of higher levels). The cleric may not use his bonus domain spell slots for spontaneous casting. Once a readied spell is used in this way for spontaneous casting, the prior spell is no longer considered ready.
Why are you requiring the cleric to lose a readied spell in addition to using a slot?
Why are you requiring the cleric to lose a readied spell in addition to using a slot?
BTW, let me add that I really like your system!
It more closely simulates the old system. The "cost" of spontaneous casting was choosing which of your "useful" spells you could afford to lose to cast emergency healing.
So in this instance, if you have readied (for example) Bless, Magic Weapon, Shield of Faith, and Sanctuary, you have to choose one of those readied spells you won't have access to again until you rest and ready new spells.
You could, of course, drop that restriction if you find it too draconian.
Yes, I would probably let clerics have cure spells as extra prepared spells.
OTOH, I would add some stipulation about only adding spells to the known spell list if they are the same level or less as the level in the corresponding class, so that a character would need to have 6 levels as cleric before adding 6th level spells (of course, he would still need to be at least 11th level character in order to actually cast them). I don't like too much the idea of a Wiz 16/Clr 1 being able to cast 9th level clerical spells.
Thoughts? One could certainly fiddle with the numbers a bit, but I feel that some kind of restriction of that sort is warranted...
Yes, I would probably let clerics have cure spells as extra prepared readied spells.
FIFY-- I assume that's what you mean. I'd tie the free "Readied" cure spell to the cleric class levels.
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OTOH, I would add some stipulation about only adding spells to the known spell list if they are the same level or less as the level in the corresponding class, so that a character would need to have 6 levels as cleric before adding 6th level spells.
Sure. Let me know what 7th and 8th level Bard spells you want to add.
Illusion and charm spells from the sorcerer list come to mind as a thematically appropriate group open to expansions from both open and closed expansion sources.
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