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General RPG Rules Discussion[WAS CALLED "Pathfinder/OGL/D20 GAMES"] Discuss the rules of Pathfinder, d20 Modern and any other game except D&D, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, and the like.
Has anyone tried this? I have spent a bit of the past weekend doing this for my homebrew game for the classes found in Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, and Complete Adventurer, as well as Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, (to a degree) Races of Destiny, and Player's Handbook II. I didn't add any abilities to any of the classes;the document mostly consists of changing Skills and Hit Die where necessary. However, some classes and races do have a few significant changes. For example, I made some changes to the goliath to try to remove the LA +1, and the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality now works quite similarly to the PF paladin's Lay On Hands.
I'm not finished with this project yet, but if you'd like to see what I've written email me at carg72.at.gmail.com and I can email you a copy of the rtf file.
I have an artificer and a shugenja in my newly-converted-to-PF Eberron game. The shugenja needed literally no changes. (The player's happy with his abilities and power level. He was glad for the two extra feats, though, and of course the changes in skills applied.)
The artificer got the bump in HD to d8. Also, because the artificer has some abilities that rely on XP-cost, we changed that. Technically, we changed the main issue for the whole game, making magic item creation costs include a 5 gp/XP charge. He can now use Craft Reserve (at a 5-to-1 ratio) to pay that extra cost. He also has an infusion that costs XP to use, and he convinced me to leave that as-is. For this campaign I've left it alone, but in the future all former XP costs will be converted to gp-costs.
While i'm impressed by your seeming determination to convert all of the 3.5 non-core classes and races, I'm just going to do so as I need them. It is, in general, so simple to do on the fly that "need" is easily swamped by "laziness." But then, if Laziness were a feature for a prestige class, I'd be taking epic levels in it.
__________________ Jeff Wilder, San Francisco Bay Area
"And if you bore me ... you lose your soul to me." -- Belly, "Gepetto"
I have an artificer and a shugenja in my newly-converted-to-PF Eberron game. The shugenja needed literally no changes. (The player's happy with his abilities and power level. He was glad for the two extra feats, though, and of course the changes in skills applied.)
You're right about the Shugenja. The only changes I made to that class were some minor changes to the class skills (replaced some with the new amalgamated skills, and added Fly), and there was a reference changed from the PHB to the equivalent reference in the PFRPB.
Quote:
While i'm impressed by your seeming determination to convert all of the 3.5 non-core classes and races, I'm just going to do so as I need them. It is, in general, so simple to do on the fly that "need" is easily swamped by "laziness." But then, if Laziness were a feature for a prestige class, I'd be taking epic levels in it.
It's just a matter of being prepared for me. I've been running my homebrew for closing in on two years, and in that time, I've had a grand total of three PCs that have been composed of purely core races and classes.
Quite a few of them have alternate class abilities in PHII and other books, if you are looking for new class abilities. I redid the warlord and added Adrenaline Boost as a core ability and shifted it up one level.
Last edited by Achan hiArusa; 12th September 2008 at 02:54 PM..
I've actually covered the Expanded class abilities from the PHB2 in my change document. I haven't done anything with the Expanded Marshal from the PHB2 or the Illumians from RoD, simply because they don't appear in my homebrew.
I may next tackle the "Other Races" in the "Races of" series.
I'm finding that most of the non-core classes that I use in my game have only really required some skills re-assortment, (and Presto2112's document has helped on that) but I've taken the advantage to house-rule some things I wasn't too happy with, and have alternate versions of some classes - especially those that fit better with my Ravenloft game. For example Ravenloft Paladins don't get Detect Evil and Aura of Courage, since they'd run the essence of the game - so as per the rules they get Detect Chaos and the Courage feat. But I've made variants which follow along with the Complete Champion and dump the spells in lieu of extra bonus feats, or instead of Detect Evil (or Chaos) getting Detect Undead.
At the end of the day I'm fairly willing to let a player customise a class to a degree, if I think it fits with concept. I brought in "negative feats" which are basically flaws that negate feats (e.g. Armour Ineptitude - which removes an armour proficiency) that can be used to buy more feats and buy flavour.
For example a Fighter from a Culture Level 9 realm is supposed to get heavy armour proficiency, but in CL9 it says that heavy armour is frowned on, since they see them as barbaric and use light weapons and armour. So imo allowing a player to "remove" the armour proficiency and get weapon finesse instead is more in-keeping with the theme of the game. Of course that same character may realise later on that that Paladin with Plate armour takes a lot less damage than he does...
What I AM having trouble with is the Prestige classes - especially Wizards. If I have a class get to say Wizard 6, then carry on with a wizard class, do they carry on getting the bonus abilities? In the old system they'd lose the familiars and bonus feats, but carry on improving in spellcasting, including the +1 spell for specialty school per level. To me not allowing them access to the bonus spells/abilities is like denying them that +1... but is it now a class special quality?
The players in my game like to think of PrC as something to aspire to, but the new core classes feel so good that it seems almost pointless to dump the exra abilities for some of the usually lame-but-concept-feeling ones of Prestige classes.
Just remember that one of the ideas behind Pathfinder was to bring the original core classes up to par with the prestige and later core classes. Since they're now balanced, there really shouldn't be a reason to give the other core classes a bump in power - just adjust the skills to that they match and call it good.
Of course this is all theoretical. My group decided not to pull in any of the later core classes and are instead getting reacquainted with the PHB core classes.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
Oh I agree, I haven't actually bumped any core (non-PH) classes up in power with only one exception, and that was a change akin to the new rules for Rangers and Druids. But I have taken advantage to just smoothen things a bit to what I thought was preferable.
My house-rule on negative feats isn't designed to make a character more powerful, but more in-concept or give more depth. Some of the old classes imo had very generic abilities or dead levels, and this allowed a bit of smoothening. If a player wanted to take a negative feat that would never really hinder the character, in exchange for a great feat, as a DM I'd not allow it for game balance.
The only class I changed was the "Healer" class presented in the miniature's handbook. I always wanted to keep that class as the best possible healer there is, and Clerics (especially now) had an edge. If a player is choosing to take only a class dedicated to maxing the ability to heal others, I wanted them to be the best at it.
Healers get a Unicorn companion, so what I did was just give them a choice like Druids, where instead of getting a Unicorn companion they can instead take the Healing Domain (or use the Extra Domain feat to buy it). Still balanced imo but players can now choose to be good healers without being lumped with a Unicorn (that in a Ravenloft game can be more trouble than a benefit).
Anyone else done any house-rule modifications of classes? Would be interested in hearing your variants.
I've debated that too. As-is I've currently given them the ability to be able to spontaneously cast any CURE spell just like Clerics.
I'd also debated giving them a +1 bonus to Heal checks per Healer level as a class ability.
But the ability to spontaneously cast any spell is tempting, maybe convert the spells/day to the same as Sorcerers/Favoures soul, and perhaps give a spells known rather than "all or nothing."
What is the healer's spell list like again? I was considering pruning the list if need be, to allow them access only to healing/restorative spells and nothing else.
At the moment, good clerics can spontaneously cast any cure spell, as well as restoration if you use the dungeonscape variant, potentially more depending on what other prcs/feats you allow. How the heck is the healer supposed to fight with that?
Healers have actually got NO combat spells at all. Almost all the spells are healing/restorative in some way, shape or form (other than an occasional errant like Speak to Animals), though some can indirectly be used in combat at times (e.g. Heal, Cure Wounds, etc...). But according to the Miniatures handbook they can't spontaneously cast Cure (or at least, it doesn't say they CAN).
This means you can have a healer with a poor BaB and skills, and if he doesn't have the right spell for the right time then he's useless (since he can't convert spells to Cure - and if he prepares only Cure, then what's the point of other spells?).
But hey... they get a Unicorn (at level 8)! (anyone else hate the fact that half the classes either get an animal or magic? I'd love a non-magical Bard variant!)
So atm I've given them the Healing domain and spontaneously casting Cure. And am debating going on Runestar's option and just letting them spontaneously cast. Beguilers get a larger spell list (and more class abilities) and they can spontaneously cast... so why not?
To be honest, I also don't quite like the idea of a healer automatically getting a unicorn cohort, but then again, I am one of those who buy the "unicorns only follow elven maidens" fluff.
Any suggestions for an alternative class feature? I did quite like the healer class when I saw it in the mininature's handbook, but the only problem was that it seemed so restrictive that I saw no reason whatsoever to play one over a cleric.
Well since in Pathfinder Healers drop from d8 to d6 hp (due to poor BaB progression) I think it makes it worse.
I'm quite happy adding the healing domain to them, since it gives them bonus spells and a couple of abilities (Rebuke Death, Healer's Blessing) which I think helps a bit, and they get class abilities which Clerics essentially don't (other than domain powers), but ultimately more or less balances. I definitely think they should spontaneously cast Cure, but considering their limited spell lists, I may revise the spells/day to be more like Sorcerers and let them spontaneously cast at will instead.
So as a alternative choice for the Unicorn I'm considering some of the following:
- Divine Shield (Su): When a healer attains 8th level the deities recognise her devotion and grants her the ability to protect herself and those she is healing. The Healer is able to cast Mass Sanctuary on herself and those she is healing a number of times to her day equal to 3+her Cha bonus.
- Resuscitate (Su): Once a week a healer can bring back to life the recently-deceased. If she can get to a fallen comrade within a number of turns equal to her Charisma bonus (or alternately Healer level) she can restore him to life as if casting Revivify (Spell Compendium).
Instead of Revivify there's the possibility of Raise Dead, but I prefer Revivify since it goes more on the field-healer concept, and has a very finite time limit of expiration. This helps balance instead of allowing them to Raise Dead before curing blindness... In effect it's like a doctor resuscitating someone within moments of death (before they're truly dead).
only non-standard class I've converted so far is the Order of the Bow Prestige Class. HD got bumped and two 'dead levels' had a bonus feat added to them. Otherwise it needed no major changes.
Just remember that one of the ideas behind Pathfinder was to bring the original core classes up to par with the prestige and later core classes. Since they're now balanced, there really shouldn't be a reason to give the other core classes a bump in power - just adjust the skills to that they match and call it good.
Yeah, but the OP specifically (with the exception of the PHB2 classes) was talking about the earlier alt core classes; the complete books. I think that's fair; some of those weren't even on par with the original 3.5 core classes, much less the Pathfinder ones.
I think doing the Psionics classes (including the ones from Complete Psionic) would be a nice touch too.
some of those weren't even on par with the original 3.5 core classes, much less the Pathfinder ones
Agreed.
The aforementioned Healer class for example had promise, but even though the miniatures book stated that the Healer was better at healing than even a cleric, it was obvious that (with no spontaneous casting of Cure, or domain access) that they were seriously inferior. If they'd got access to spells at a lower level, that at least would have been something - but they didn't. All they got was a few SLAs (which arguably would be more than offset by domain spells). On Pathfinder conversion they'd get weaker still (losing HD). So whilst I haven't felt a need to power up the Warlock or Beguiler classes, I did think the Healer needed to be pumped up to make it viable for a player (or left as-is as an NPC class).
Personally, I've always wanted a PC-worthy version of the Aristocrat class. Anyone have any mods on this?
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