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General RPG Rules Discussion[WAS CALLED "Pathfinder/OGL/D20 GAMES"] Discuss the rules of Pathfinder, d20 Modern and any other game except D&D, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, and the like.
So I'm interested in learning about others experiences with this version of Call of Cthulhu RPG. I've played the d20 version and after loaning it out and never having it returned I've been asked to run a call of Cthulhu game, which is difficult without a book!
So I figured that I should try the other system, since I had to buy a new book anyways.
Please tell me about your experiences with the system.
I own the BRP version (4th I think) and though I used it heavily for inspiration in D&D I have never used it as its own system.
The stats are mostly like d20 but with percentile skills including combat skills.
One neat thing is the xp system. Succeed on a skill check and at the end of the night at the end of the game make a skill check. If it fails your percentile skill goes up by 1d6 I believe. Simple to track, rewards using your skills, but slows advancement as you master your skills.
In my opinion, the brilliant thing about CoC BRP system is it's simplicity. Sure, it's not that technically advanced, but that rather helps the game than hurts it. Due to it's simplicity it's much easier to get into character, and thereby feel the tension and horror.
As a Keeper it is quite easy to run, but the important thing is how you prepare. A good CoC scenario should be like an onion with multiple layers, and for each layer the players peel the tension should build. The truly horrific parts of the scenario should be the climax, if nothing else due to the fact that they could very well result in a TPK.
It's also the first horror RPG that incorporated mental health as a game mechanic and statistic, which is pretty historic. Every horror game since CoC has incorporated mental health mechanics to one degree or another.
The system is largely unchanged since it was first published in 1981 -- whether you consider that a bug or a feature probably depends on temperament -- and is fast and simple, but for myself there are little things that irk me, such as the relative unimportance of your character's actual ability scores once the character is built (most rolls are skill checks, which are mostly unrelated to your ability scores). On the other hand, you can pick up a module written in 1983 and still run it straight off the shelf with little-to-no modification, which is very handy.
Really whether you'll like the system or not depends on how crunchy you'd like it to be. CoC as written is heavy on fluff light on crunch and most of its adherents prefer it that way. I like a little more crunch myself, but only as much as needs to be without interrupting the flow or killing the mood.
At the risk of self-pluggery, I've assembled a Saga-edition kitbash game that borrows heavily from CoC that you might find useful:
"Not everybody likes the same sort of games.
Everybody ought to play the sort of games they like.
It's not a stupid idea to sometimes try something you're not sure if you like or not.
Just because somebody likes or dislikes something you feel differently about doesn't make them (or you) stupid or a jerk.
Except Julie Andrews. If you dislike Julie Andrews, you're a jerk. And Golden Retriever puppies." --Barsoomcore
"There is a handsome and mysterious stranger in your future. He will try to kill you and take your stuff." --Sejs
Huge fan of the BRP version (and most BRP games). It was one of the first non-D&D games I picked up back when it was originally released. Of course, it's great for one-shots It has remained relatively unchanged for 27 years because the system is fast and it works. Great fun. Not a game for the power-gamer or "build" gamer. I liked D20 as well, but the BRP version suits the game better IMO.
__________________ "Maybe I'm just getting too old to want to have to deal with a heap o' rules and the steaming heap o' rules lawyers who go with them."-Gary Gygax
"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976
I love both systems, but I've found that when my players play d20, they play it more like a D&D game (more heroic, "fight the monsters!"), while with BRP they take more seriously the potential lethality of the game, and are more likely to play cowardly (which is a good thing in CoC, as long as they don't run away from the adventure altogether!).
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
The immortal Stan! of Super Genius Games convinced me BRP was simple and intuitve enough that my feeling I was not a master of the system would not prevent me from writing an adventure for it. I trust Stan! on things like this, which is why I agreed to write Super Genius' Halloween game, Midnight Harvest.
I think there is a distinction worth making about this. For d20 games, there is often a strong leaning curve, and "system mastery" can be an important element for GMs and players alike. I think BRP does lend itself to a much more relaxed gaming environment, and a looser style of game play.
Once you grasp the core concepts, running a game is easy enough, and it leaves your mind free to focus on thematic and story elements, which are critical to a good CoC game.
I've just picked up the BRP system in preparation for dual-statting future Cthulhu books I release, and so far I really love it.
So far it's very easy to understand and has some nice mechanics for applying the effects of age to character skills. I like derived characteristics. They just make sense to me.
Something that's surprising me is Hit points. From what I understand so far, there's actually a ceiling (35 hp). It seems to me that people are going to be getting killed a lot in this game if the focus is on combat. I still need to read the rest of it though, so who knows.
Not to totally ignore the OP's questions, but more of a sidenote: I played CoC for the first time about 2 months ago, and the GM used the Silhouette rules (SilCORE, actually; Heavy Gear/Tribe 8/Jovian Chronicles). It was very nice because the rules totally blended into the background and we all had a blast.
Not sure how the BRP rules work comparatively, but my understanding is that they are much the same; simple, easy to forget about until you need 'em. I like that for a CoC game.
__________________ --neuronphaser
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A Quote from Lord Ernie @ ENWorld.org:
"So... as I understand it, this whole thread comes down to a couple of things.
1. Attack and AC curve in such a way that high levels no longer result in auto-miss or auto-hit depending on your BAB.
2. Ability scores and racial influences matter strongly across the board (related to point 1)
3. At all levels, PC's need to work together to survive.
It seems to me that people are going to be getting killed a lot in this game.....
Welcome to CoC. Chances are your character won't live long or stay sane long enough to care. That's the nature of the game. It's not a cinematic/heroic RPG. If you go into the game with a "kick some ass" mentality you will be sorely disappointed.
__________________ "Maybe I'm just getting too old to want to have to deal with a heap o' rules and the steaming heap o' rules lawyers who go with them."-Gary Gygax
"D&D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules." Tim Kask, Foreword, Eldritch Wizardry 1976
Welcome to CoC. Chances are your character won't live long or stay sane long enough to care. That's the nature of the game. It's not a cinematic/heroic RPG. If you go into the game with a "kick some ass" mentality you will be sorely disappointed.
Don't get me wrong. I totally dig that!
I wonder though, about that for other genres though (say fantasy). I guess there better be a darned good healer on hand
It works, obviously. But it shows its age in some areas, especially in comparison to more modern systems. For each thing it invented that was once unique, a new game has come along with refinements (for example, Unknown Armies uses a more comprehensive sanity system, and GUMSHOE is geared towards investigatory horror). Most of these latter games have been made by ardent admirers and CoC fans, though.
Two things I hate about playing BRP CoC are that every third or fourth NPC has totally useless skills included for comic relief, and that many groups tend to use random temporary insanities in the same way. I suppose it's one's way of whistling past the graveyard, but it tends to ruin the mood for me.
__________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
Welcome to CoC. Chances are your character won't live long or stay sane long enough to care. That's the nature of the game. It's not a cinematic/heroic RPG.
If you consider that most investigators are doing the right thing, knowing that they are doomed, it's incredibly heroic.
The lethality factor is highly dependent on the Keeper, too. As I hate making new PCs, my games tend to be quite survivable.
__________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
Something that's surprising me is Hit points. From what I understand so far, there's actually a ceiling (35 hp). It seems to me that people are going to be getting killed a lot in this game if the focus is on combat. I still need to read the rest of it though, so who knows.
So far though, 5 stars. Great stuff.
And with the Mythos, sometimes Hit Point is really irrelevant to how an Investigator gets killed. That's usually reserved for mundane perils such as gunfire, ordinary animals and accidents natural or otherwise. It's more of a technique to convey the ordinary human being's fragility and insignificance compared to the universe as a whole, rather than actual stats.
I think it's safe to say that many fans of CoC see a high lethality for PCs as a feature, rather than a bug. And, it does encourage people to resport to violence when they see no other choice, rather than as a first option.
I've never tried BRP for basic fantasy, but I imagine there are certainly fantasy settings where fights should be just as lethal and avoided as in CoC. Just try to warn players coming from a more kicik-in-the-door system if you want to avoid assumption clashes.
Personally, I don't see high lethality as being a bad thing in any rpg setting.
The knowledge that your character can die just as easily at max health as she could at lower health underscores the inherent danger of combat much more so than if the character had 100 hp to burn off before needing to worry about death.
It's especially relevant in a CoC game, where characters are encountering truly menacing creatures; things they probably never should have gone looking for in the first place.
But really, you can use this system for great effect in a modern setting, a futuristic setting and even fantasy settings.
Right now I'm reading about resistance checks, and I'm not sure how well I like those. They seem a bit convoluted to me, but I confess I was reading them at 1 a.m.
The whole skills going over 100% is confusing right now. I'm not sure how you make a check above 100% -again, late reading might be the problem.
I understand how that can increase the chance for heroes to score crits, but it just seems that they are going to succeed at everything they do, so in effect, at that skill level, you are only really rolling to see if there's a fumble or a crit.
The lethality factor is highly dependent on the Keeper, too. As I hate making new PCs, my games tend to be quite survivable.
Well I had a an idea for using the Luck % as a "fate point" mechanic. If you'd otherwise be killed, you lose 10% - 20% of your luck stat and survive, worse for wear [see WFRP]. If your Luck % runs out, your luck runs out.
I've found the system to be simple and flexible, but with alot of options for the GM to decide how he wants to resolve something.
While Skills go above 100%, any role of 96%+ is always a failure, however, the high skill can be relevant if:
its a hard task with a modifier (halved skill % is a common one).
rolling an "impale" involves a success at 1/5th your normal skill.
if a roll is resisted skills (e.g. two characters competing on who can climb a cliff fastest might use such a roll)
Typically though, your right - anything above 96% is fumble or pass most the time.
The resistance table is good once you get the hang of it - kicking in a door?
resisted str against the Door's "Str", chasing someone down? Resisted Con roll. Debating Society? Resisted Persuade skill check.
The resistance table is good once you get the hang of it - kicking in a door? resisted str against the Door's "Str", chasing someone down? Resisted Con roll. Debating Society? Resisted Persuade skill check.
Actually it does not specifically work to compare skills, just attributes, although it could be easily modified to do so. For skill contests the rules use a different procedure which is independent of each contestant's relative skill ratings.
__________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
It has remained relatively unchanged for 27 years because the system is fast and it works. Great fun. Not a game for the power-gamer or "build" gamer. I liked D20 as well, but the BRP version suits the game better IMO.
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