SW Saga SW saga edition problems and gotchas?

[Plane Sailing]

I'm thinking about dusting off my SWSE and giving it a go again (and possibly using it as a basis for a fantasy game too, taking advantage of good work that some here have already done in that respect).

I've got a question for you good people who have done a fair bit of SWSE gaming though... What are the problem areas, or the gotchas in the system?

Is there any vital errata (or suggested errata) which I ought to know about?

Are there any loopholes to the system that could cause problems (e.g. stacking effects which drive people down the condition track too quickly, for instance)?

Looking forward to your collected wisdom!

Cheers

[The_Gneech]

I haven't noticed any major holes, although the official SWSE boards have a few topics that come up over and over again, especially about Move Object and Fool's Luck (see below).

My only real hangup has been the encounter-building guidelines, but I finally figured those out while I was building my XP Budget conversion. The book says one thing, the errata says another, and the current lead developer says a third! But to put it real simply, your average party level x3 = the total number of enemy levels to throw at them (roughly), with no single enemy element being more than +2/-2 from the average -- adjust up or down to tweak the difficulty. (Or, for that matter, you're welcome to use my XP Budget conversion! )

It does take a little getting used to, but some quickie observations:

• Multiclassing is easy, doesn't screw up play balance, and is intended to be done for almost all character builds. Do it a lot!
• Recommended house rule: allow someone to take Skill Training in one of the class skills when they multiclass, particularly if they've already got all the starter feats for the new class. You won't miss cross-class skill ranks half as much this way.
• There are lots of skill checks vs. defense scores, especially Jedi with Use the Force. Scoundrels have a talent ("Fool's Luck" IIRC) that gives them +5 with skill checks during an encounter. Therefore, Scoundrel/Jedi can be a broken combination. Recommended house rule: any time a skill check is done against a defense score, it is considered "an attack" for purposes of Fool's Luck (and therefore only gets a +1).
• Remember that modifiers go +/- 1, 2, 5, 10. If something is -4 in d20, it's probably -5 in SWSE.
• Status on the condition track is more important than hit points, usually.
• Second wind can save your bacon, but is not always enough.
• Going to 0 hp knocks you out, unless it's accompanied by more damage than your threshold. It's easy to defeat someone, but much harder to actually kill them.
• Charge is a standard action. Do it a lot!
• You can take an attack of opportunity with a blaster.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head. Overall it's a very fast, clean system and I heartily recommend it.

-The Gneech

[Plane Sailing]

I'm tempted to merge together some of the things I like from 4e with SWSE - in particular the following:

• fixed hp
• healing surges & related death/dying rules
• same BAB across all classes (half level)

I'd also like to find a way of harmonising attacks vs defences and skills vs defences, since those seem a little wonky in SWSE at the moment.

Cheers

[Hammerhead]

I've seen the Condition Spike (two Force Stuns from the Jedi, and Dastardly Strike from the Scoundrel...there are many ways to knock someone down that track) take out more than a few very powerful opponents very quickly. It's more than a little unsatisfying. It creates a KO-spiral.

If I were in charge of rewriting the rules, I'd get rid of the Defense penalty imposed by conditions.

[The_Gneech]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I'm tempted to merge together some of the things I like from 4e with SWSE - in particular the following:

• fixed hp

Shouldn't be a problem as long as it's done across the board. If you set it to Max HP, fights will take forever, so I'd recommend setting it to "exactly average".

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

• healing surges & related death/dying rules

Not familiar enough w/ 4E to address.

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

• same BAB across all classes (half level)

If you do that, I highly recommend giving the Soldier something nice to compensate, because his full BAB is one his major goodies. (The Jedi gets full BAB too, but is probably fine without it.) You'll also want to examine how it interacts with defense scores, particularly at higher levels. Right now it's designed so that BAB will eventually overtake defense scores, making attacks (from both sides) hit more often as levels go up. This is kept in balance by the fact that hit points go up faster than damage done. If you drastically reduce BAB across the board, high-level fights are going to slow down considerably as it will become harder to hit than the system is balanced for. You'll either have to lower hit points or increase damage -- either of which option will tend to make combat more "swingy."

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I'd also like to find a way of harmonising attacks vs defences and skills vs defences, since those seem a little wonky in SWSE at the moment.

Over time, they even out, but yeah, at low levels there's a bit of a disparity. One way is to change the skill check vs. defenses into an attack vs. defenses, using 3/4 BAB + Cha Mod, which can only be done if you are trained in the appropriate skill.

-The Gneech

[Spatula]

IME healing is too slow for a cinematic game. There's a force power that helps, and jedi can heal faster than normal, but I don't think that the game should hinge on having one particular force power available.

Making force attacks a skill check is a big design flaw IMO. Force powers are ridiculously effective at low levels as a result.

I don't think that giving everyone 1/2 BAB would work well in Saga. In 4e, your class attack bonus is only part of the picture, and you have magic item and stat boosts making up the difference. Whereas SW isn't really about items at all.

[Obryn]

IMHO, the Force rules are kind of nuts... As mentioned above, they're skill checks vs. Defenses, and therefore can attain extremely high bonuses with little expense. Oddly, it starts out hugely overwhelming at low levels, but attains approximate parity with attacks at level 20. (Hardly an ideal situation, imho. I'd like better parity throughout the levels.)

Probably the best fix you can make for this, is to limit/restrict/nerf Skill Focus. I've seen varying solutions, like Skill Focus only granting a +1/2 or +1/3 or +1/4 level bonus to Skill rolls; or else restricting it to higher levels where the math is less wonky.

If you want the Force to be awesome all the time, it's not a huge problem. OTOH, if you want your Jedi to actually use their lightsabers, it is. (And, out of combat, it means that Mind Trick basically always works.)

I wish it would have been its own kind of attack roll instead of a skill check, but there you have it.


Also, in the errata, many powers' DC changed to the target's Damage Threshold instead of a Defense. I'd recommend, instead, that you use the appropriate Size Modifier to the appropriate Defense for these cases; otherwise Improved Damage Threshold becomes a must-have feat.


Finally, I'd consider adopting a houserule that makes it easier for melee characters to use Full Attacks. With the current system - which has Withdrawal as a Move Action - it's very easy to escape from people and get far, far away. Quick fixes include making Withdrawal a Standard action, incorporating some feats/prestige classes from KotOR, or just allowing characters to use all their attacks after a single move.

-O

[Matrix Sorcica]

If using SWSE for fantasy, how do you compensate non-force (magic) users for not having blasters doing nasty damage. Seems to me, the Force (magic) will be overpowered?

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Spatula

IME healing is too slow for a cinematic game. There's a force power that helps, and jedi can heal faster than normal, but I don't think that the game should hinge on having one particular force power available.

This is quite true. It means long recovery times after big fights.

I don't think that giving everyone 1/2 BAB would work well in Saga. In 4e, your class attack bonus is only part of the picture, and you have magic item and stat boosts making up the difference. Whereas SW isn't really about items at all.

I agree completely. I think SWSE is balanced with 1 or 0.75 BABs in mind.

-O

[drothgery]

Originally Posted by Matrix Sorcica

If using SWSE for fantasy, how do you compensate non-force (magic) users for not having blasters doing nasty damage. Seems to me, the Force (magic) will be overpowered?

You have normal weapons deal two dice of damage, ala SWSE 'advanced melee weapons' (aka vibroweapons) and lightsabers. Throw in some strength bonuses and you're dealing as much damage as blasters much of the time.

[The_Gneech]

Originally Posted by Matrix Sorcica

If using SWSE for fantasy, how do you compensate non-force (magic) users for not having blasters doing nasty damage. Seems to me, the Force (magic) will be overpowered?

Here's how I handle it:

Simple
For simple weapons, the small size die is bumped up to the normal medium size die, and the medium size die is bumped up 1 from that. For instance, a light mace is normally 1d6 (M) or 1d4 (S). For Saga Edition, a light mace does 1d8 (M) or 1d6 (S).
Crit 19-20: Medium size does 2x its regular dice; small size does +1 step from the regular "medium-size" die. For example, a dagger is normally 1d4 (M) or 1d3 (S). For Saga Edition, a dagger does 2d4 (M) or 1d6 (S). "Crit 18-20" does the same and also gets "Crit +1 die".
Crit x3: This becomes "Crit +1 die." Crit x4 becomes "Crit +2 dice."

Martial
For martial weapons, the small size die is bumped up to the normal medium size die, and the medium size damage is double that. For instance, a throwing axe is normally 1d4 (S) or 1d6 (M). For Saga Edition, a throwing axe does 1d6 (S) or 2d6 (M).
Crit 19-20: Small size does +1 step up from the regular “medium-size” die, and the medium size damage is double that. For instance, a short sword is normally 1d4 (S) or 1d6 (M) Crit 19-20. For Saga Edition, a short sword is 1d8 (S) or 2d8 (M). "Crit 18-20" does the same and also gets Crit +1 die.
Crit x3: This becomes "Crit +1 die." Crit x4 becomes "Crit +2 dice."

Exotic
Treat as martial weapons.

Large Weapons
Large weapons do +1 die to their base damage.

So here are some stats...

Simple Weapons
Unarmed Attacks/Natural Weapons
Punch/Kick: 1d3 (s), 1d4 (m)

Light Melee Weapons
Dagger: 1d6 (s), 2d4 (m), May be thrown
Dagger, Punching: 1d4 (s), 1d6, Crit +1 die
Mace, Light: 1d6 (s), 1d8 (m)

Ranged Weapons
Crossbow, Heavy: 1d12 (s), 2d10 (m), 2 move actions to reload, +4 sq. range
Crossbow, Light: 1d10 (s), 2d8 (m), move action to reload
Dart: 1d4 (s), 1d6 (m), Thrown

Martial Weapons
Light Melee Weapons
Axe, throwing: 1d6 (s), 2d6 (m), May be thrown
Hammer, light: 1d4 (s), 2d4 (m), May be thrown
Sword, short: 1d8 (s), 2d8 (m)

One-Handed Melee Weapons
Battleaxe: 1d8 (s), 2d8 (m), Crit +1 die
Longsword: 1d10 (s), 2d10 (m)
Pick, Heavy: 1d6 (s), 2d6 (m), Crit +2 dice

Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Falchion: 1d10 (s), 2d10 (m), Crit +1 die
Glaive: 1d10 (s), 2d10 (m), Crit +1 die, 1 sq. reach, may not hit adjacent squares
Greataxe: 1d12 (s), 2d12 (m), Crit +1 die

Ranged Weapons
Longbow: 1d8 (s), 2d8 (m), Crit +1 die, may not be used from horseback
Shortbow: 1d6 (s), 2d6 (m),, Crit +1 die, range as simple

etc.

Note that these numbers are different from the ones in S&S Saga -- that will change in the next revision.

-The Gneech

[Matrix Sorcica]

Thanks!

That looks very interesting, I must say. It's been a while since I looked at S&S Saga. Can you do a recap of how you do magic?


Oh, and sorry for the threadjack

[The_Gneech]

Originally Posted by Matrix Sorcica

Thanks!

That looks very interesting, I must say. It's been a while since I looked at S&S Saga. Can you do a recap of how you do magic?


Oh, and sorry for the threadjack

In S&S Saga, anyone with the Magician feat can learn spells, although some classes (particularly Scholar and Scout) have talents that take better advantage of it.

Magician
You have the gift (or curse) of true magic power, enabling you to cast spells, enchant items, and wield sorcerous power.
Benefit: You can make Spellcraft checks, learn magic spells, and be trained in the Spellcraft skill. You also have access to various feats, talents,
or other special benefits that have Magician as a prerequisite.
Special: When you take the Magician feat, your learn a number of spells from the spell list equal to 1 + your Int modifier (minimum 1). These spells are not considered “at hand,” you just have them in a book, on a scroll, or otherwise in your possession. You learn other spells by research
or tutelage picked up over the course of your adventuring. (NPC magicians simply know as many spells as the GM decides they should know.)

"Spells At Hand" works a bit like a Jedi's "Force Powers Suite" ... spells not at hand take much longer to cast (sorta like 4E rituals). There's no limit to the number of spells a character can learn, but in combat you can generally only use your spells at hand.

Spells require a Spellcraft check to cast successfully; some also require an Arcane Attack (basically a 3/4 BAB + Cha mod attack). Some spells also have a "sacrifice" element and may impart taint or madness.

Sort of a cross between SWSE Force Powers and Call of Cthulhu spells...

-The Gneech

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by The_Gneech

Shouldn't be a problem as long as it's done across the board. If you set it to Max HP, fights will take forever, so I'd recommend setting it to "exactly average".

that's pretty much it.

Not familiar enough w/ 4E to address.

Essentially when you reach 0 hp you have to start making a 'save' against dying - roll 10+ on a d20 and you remain stable, 9- and you start fading. If you fail 3 of those saves, you die. If at any point you roll a 20 on your 'save', you bounce back up with 1/4 of your normal total hp.

The 'second wind' idea is extended - everyone has about 5-10 'healing surges', each of which recovers 1/4 of your total hp when triggered. You can take one 'second wind' per encounter on your own, others can be triggered by others via heal checks of powers (4e). The various force healing powers could also be used to trigger healing surges in others or yourself in my vision of it.

If you do that, I highly recommend giving the Soldier something nice to compensate, because his full BAB is one his major goodies. (The Jedi gets full BAB too, but is probably fine without it.) You'll also want to examine how it interacts with defense scores, particularly at higher levels. Right now it's designed so that BAB will eventually overtake defense scores, making attacks (from both sides) hit more often as levels go up.

The basic idea is that everyone gets +1/2 level to attacks and defences. In the same way that classes have different bonuses to their defences, I'd give them different bonuses to attack.

This would mean that across all levels the chance to hit other people remains consistent. Hit points still go up slightly more quickly than damage, which means that higher level fights last slightly longer - which is something I'd like to see.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Spatula

I don't think that giving everyone 1/2 BAB would work well in Saga. In 4e, your class attack bonus is only part of the picture, and you have magic item and stat boosts making up the difference. Whereas SW isn't really about items at all.

Not a problem, since stat boosts can happen just as easily in SW (and will do in my version/vision) and magic item boosts aren't necessary (no magic weapons/no magic armours, thus everything stays on a pretty even keel).

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Spatula

Making force attacks a skill check is a big design flaw IMO. Force powers are ridiculously effective at low levels as a result.

Exactly.

I'd go the 4e route of having force based powers being something like Cha vs defence attacks (i.e. Cha bonus + 1/2 level vs Reflex defence or Will defence).

I'd still keep a 'Use the Force' skill (call it Spellcraft for a fantasy game) which can be used to determine the effectiveness of the power once it hits (or the effectiveness of non combat powers as-is).

This should mean that Force powers (magic) fights using the same basic rules as fighters with melee weapons do.

The SWSE had a great move in removing the 'force adept' and effectively rolling that into all the other classes, so you could be a noble force adept, a scout force adept and so forth. That would fit well with a magic-rich fantasy world where anyone can pick up a small amount of magic.

Cheers

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

The basic idea is that everyone gets +1/2 level to attacks and defences. In the same way that classes have different bonuses to their defences, I'd give them different bonuses to attack.

This would mean that across all levels the chance to hit other people remains consistent. Hit points still go up slightly more quickly than damage, which means that higher level fights last slightly longer - which is something I'd like to see.

The thing this is going to do is to the Force.

The way Saga is set up, the Force is basically useless against high level characters. Despite some pretty hefty bonuses (training, focus, ability), the progression of defenses across the levels means that a force user needs to roll a 16 or better on the die to affect an opponent at high levels (16+). This keeps the party from Force Stun / Push / etc Darth whoever into oblivion / pits / whatever.

By making things scale the same way for everything, you make the Force a powerful offensive tool against foes of all levels. Which can lead to some very short fights.


Regarding the Damage Track:
For most characters, it makes your critical hits have a lasting effect upon the fight. For a specialist (Force Stun Jedi, Bounty Hunters, a couple others), it gives foes five hp. I rolled with a party that specialized in non-lethal capture by shoving everyone down the condition track. At level 13 we ran into some new players (damage dealers) and assaulted a Sith base. Inside, we snuck up on a Rancor. While the new party panicked, I told them to calm down, "we've got this." We dropped the Rancor in the surprise round. One Force Stun, one Bounty Hunter/Scoundrel/Soldier down-you-go shot, and it was over.

The stacking effects on abusing the damage track can be nasty. On the other hand, if your players role-play it well then they'll be paragons of the light that can count the people they've killed on one hand at level 19. Except for droids; they'll hate droids because droids only respond to damage (or ion blasters).

[Donovan Morningfire]

Regarding recovery rates in SWSE, I've been using a house rule that when someone uses Treat Injury on you, you regain hit points equal to one-half their check result, which goes a fair ways towards alleviating the slow recovery times without giving players a high-fantasy degree of 'magical healing.'

Another idea is that every character gets a number of Second Winds per day equal to one plus their Constitution modifier, with a minimum of 1. Not quite the full-bore healing surges that D&D provides, but again it does lessen the downtime spent recovering in between fights.

Force usage can be overwhelming if you have someone that has over-specialized on using Force powers to the extent they can do little else. Also bear in mind that at the lower levels, most Force-users are only going to have two to four Force Powers available, and depending on their selections not all of them are going to be viable in every encounter.

By the same token, someone with Skill Focus (Persuasion) and a few of the talents off the Presence talent tree can be just as nasty. Or worse yet, they dip into Jedi and pick up Adept/Master Negotiator. So it's not just Force-users that can overpower Defenses at lower levels just by taking Skill Focus.

In terms of changes, one thing that helps keep a few powers in the corebook in check is that they target the Damage Threshold of the opponent, making things like Force Stun a little less broke-tastic, especially if the opponent has Improved Damage Threshold.

As for Fool's Luck, I dropped the bonus to +2 to make it a bit less of an "I Win" button for Scoundrels, especially the Force-using ones.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by ValhallaGH

The thing this is going to do is to the Force.

The way Saga is set up, the Force is basically useless against high level characters. Despite some pretty hefty bonuses (training, focus, ability), the progression of defenses across the levels means that a force user needs to roll a 16 or better on the die to affect an opponent at high levels (16+). This keeps the party from Force Stun / Push / etc Darth whoever into oblivion / pits / whatever.

By making things scale the same way for everything, you make the Force a powerful offensive tool against foes of all levels. Which can lead to some very short fights.

I don't think this is going to be a problem - in my proposed version everyones attack will scale with defences.

Skill Training will just give +3 (and proficiency with a weapon gives the proficiency bonus which is either +2 or +3).

High 'use the force' skill would mean greater effect on a hit, but you've still got to get the hint with your Cha + 1/2 level + 3 vs their Will defence.

There will be some areas where it is advantageous, and others where it won't be.

The same applies for non-force-user talents which use skills against defences - moving them onto this standard will keep them equally useful against same level targets through the lifetime of the campaign.

Cheers

[ValhallaGH]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I don't think this is going to be a problem

I hope you're correct.

Good Luck!