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General RPG Rules Discussion[WAS CALLED "Pathfinder/OGL/D20 GAMES"] Discuss the rules of Pathfinder, d20 Modern and any other game except D&D, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, and the like.
I agree that horror is the purview of the DM as drowbane said, but I do think the game system actually can help or hinder this.
In my experience if I make players suffer a fear/horror effect players have been known to argue that there's nothing in the rules that states it - and it goes back to me arguing DM's golden rule. Having a system that caters for this and backs you helps a lot.
I love the Ravenloft setting, and the fact the whole setting is dark and gloomy is great, so I definately recommend it. However the d20 Call of Cthulhu is also very good and dark. The White Wolf World of Darkness series are wonderful (but not d20).
But at the end of the day if a DM's idea of horror is just "there's a werewolf, kill it" then it won't be very frightening. Last session I had the players walk into their home village and it's become a bit of a ghost town, with belladonna placed on every door, and the houses of some npcs they'd met were broken open with signs of vicious struggle and gore. They never found any bodies, but they became very horrified about the deaths of old contacts and it made it more impacting than being told "there's a werewolf in town and it killed the blacksmith."
The Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide has some good hints and tips on carrying out a good horror campaign.
And I agree with Drowbane, reading up classic horror or (if you're lazy like me) watching Bram Stoker's Dracula, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and similar classic horror films are very good inspiration!
Third me for "Horror is in the DM" but mechanics help, simply because some players will feel no horror other than damage done to their PC a that cannot be handwaved away.
Its not d20 but the best Horror system I have seen is from Unknown Armies a game in which encounter the unknown or commiting horrible acts (like attacking someone) can either give you "hardened" or "failed" notches and lead to various forms of psychosis.
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Horror is in the DM, not the mechanics. Ravenloft never understood that.
The Ravenloft campaign setting understood it. Unforunately every adventure TSR published for the selling failed to understand it.
I've had great results with Ravenloft and Call of Cuthulu. I've also been in completely non-scary games using the same systems. On the other end I've been in creepy/scary games run in both Dread and Marvel Super Heroes, so I guess that just goes to show it's the GM that provides the horror, not the ruleset.
The Ravenloft campaign setting understood it. Unforunately every adventure TSR published for the selling failed to understand it.
Agreed. When TSR ran Ravenloft it was just another Dungeon Bash with only a little more history behind it. But if you look at them they're really no different to any other TSR module except more ghosties and vampires.
When DYD 3.0 came out Wizards licensed Ravenloft to Sword and Sorcery Studios, which is actually the same people who do the World of Darkness games (ie White Wolf). In their hands the system really took off and became a lot more about mood, dread and corruption, and less about beating up the next monster.
I still love the (new) Ravenloft, and am very sorry that eventually wizards pulled the plug on the line... I'd jump at buying any more Ravenloft books that come out from SSS. If you're into d20 modern, then the Masque of the Red Death campaign setting (victorian-era Ravenloft in the real world) can be easily adapted and is really good too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormborn
some players will feel no horror other than damage done to their PC a that cannot be handwaved away
Amen to that. In one of my recent games a player lost 90% of his hp and was still willing to carry on fighting, just thinking "I can take 2 more hits" and knowin the Paladin and Cleric would heal him. But when he lost a negative level to a vamp energy drain and saw the very real prospect of losing it for good, that was a whole different kettle of fish. One of the other players however saw the vamp, and even though he passed a will save still told me his character wanted to flee. You have roleplayers, and you have stat-players.
I used Call of Cthulhu d20 to great effect - but again, that was largely a result of the preparation and mood I put into it... And, most crucially, my players' buy in.
I'd just strongly urge you to find a simple rules-set where the mechanics disappear. CoC d20 worked like this for us, since we didn't worry overmuch about positioning, AoOs, and never brought out a battle map. At its core, CoC d20 is hugely stripped-down, and is very transparent. The less obtrusive your rules-set, the more the players will get absorbed into the scenario.
I'll toss in a plug for Uncanny Midnight Tales here. Faster and simpler than CoC d20, but a bit more detailed than CoC/BRP. Makes a nice middle ground, IMO.
-The Gneech
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I used Call of Cthulhu d20 to great effect - but again, that was largely a result of the preparation and mood I put into it... And, most crucially, my players' buy in.
Agreed. My last CoC d20 game went really well, but it wasn't actually the mechanics as the effort put into having the right music to set the right mood, the right props (e.g. I printed out a letter they'd find from a dead man and let them read it rather than just tell them about it), the right plotline to hook them and, most importantly, having a really good set of players who got very into character and made it a great session.
Have played CoC with other groups before and it's little more than a 1920s-era monster bash.
Personally I find that the D&D 4e rules seems a little TOO geared towards "the encounter" (which is really just combat) for my liking. Even the DMG seems to have 3 quarters of it geared towards how to make the right combat encounter. Imo this may not really be the best system for a horror game.
I've done scary Star Wars sessions before (New Jedi Order era against the Yuuzhan Vong) so I digress it's 90% DM and Players and not the system. But I'd recommend bringing in an expanded fear/horror/madness system like Ravenloft or Sanity like CoC d20 to help push statistically what the PCs (and NPCs) react like.
Call of Cthulhu (BRP) is easily the best — it's simple, plays quick, and supports the genre mechanically. I think the second best horror RPG I have ever played is SLA Industries, but that's mainly for the setting.
Like the others, horror is about 80% due to your DMing style, and keeping the atmosphere of the game tense and mysterious. Never fully let the PCs know what they are dealing with, don't let them see it in direct light, and NEVER let them know the stats. Horror relies on uncertainty, isolation, and fear, and its much harder to fear something you know completely about than the unknown.
I ran a horror D&D campaign for a number of years, and one thing I did during that time was to keep all stats secret from the PCs. Yep, thats right- the only numbers the PCs knew were their level, and their ability scores. They didn't know their THAC0 (2nd ed), HP, AC, proficiency values, plusses on weapons, etc. At first, I encountered some resistance to this idea, but after a few sessions the players LOVED it, and to this day when I run games for that group, they want me to keep the numbers out of it. I can tell you that I've never had better luck running a horror game than that one, and its largely due to keeping the stats secret and in the background. I did the same thing with a CoC campaign, NWoD game, and a Kult campaign later, with very positive results. This is the one thing I feel is key, even more than Sanity or mental illness mechanics- keep the system transparent and in the background for a horror game. Too many numbers flying around pull the player out of the fictional world and make it much harder to do horror.
That said, there are four games that if you don't own them and enjoy horror, run out and buy them.
* Call of Cthulhu BRP- 'nuff said.
* Kult- probably the darkest and most disturbing of the horror games I've ever played and run. However, some people find the imagery and themes offensive, especially if they are very religious. Probably THE best horror setting out there though, but very dark.
* NWoD- the mortals line of books are especially good, and we've used them a number of times to great effect (the best being a Silent Hill-like setting for a mini-campaign).
* Crothian mentioned Dread- and that game works great for horror, simply because there are NO numbers in it. Its based on drawing pieces out of a Jenga tower. Fun game, especially if you have players who haven't roleplayed much or at all before. I've tried this twice with a bunch of non-gamers, and they loved it.
And if you don't have Nightmares of Mine by ICE, track down a copy ASAP if you're serious about horror. Its basically a DM's trick book for running horror, and has tons of great tips.
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Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Armies and Kult are all worth investigating, and trying out if you get the chance. Certainly though, they contain elements that might inform an effective D&D horror-fantasy campaign.
I'm not sure which of these, if any, might be easy to adapt subsystems from (for 4e games), as I don't play 4e, but they should provide some insight and inspiration, depending on your needs and preferences.
Like the others, horror is about 80% due to your DMing style, and keeping the atmosphere of the game tense and mysterious. Never fully let the PCs know what they are dealing with, don't let them see it in direct light, and NEVER let them know the stats. Horror relies on uncertainty, isolation, and fear, and its much harder to fear something you know completely about than the unknown.
I ran a horror D&D campaign for a number of years, and one thing I did during that time was to keep all stats secret from the PCs.
I do exactly the same thing. I try to avoid saying "you see a werewolf" and instead describe it as a large, slathering beast - which could also be a wolfwere, werewolf lord, gnoll or ogre (system-dependent). Though my players know their stats, I track all damage (and damage rolls) so the only think they get is "the beast slashes you across the ches, and the pain nearly overcomes you... you feel woozy and are having trouble standing" (0 hp). This stops the players metagaming "I can take x more hits at this rate" and adds to the feel. The players love it too, so that's a good recommendation which I second.
I do exactly the same thing. I try to avoid saying "you see a werewolf" and instead describe it as a large, slathering beast - which could also be a wolfwere, werewolf lord, gnoll or ogre (system-dependent). Though my players know their stats, I track all damage (and damage rolls) so the only think they get is "the beast slashes you across the ches, and the pain nearly overcomes you... you feel woozy and are having trouble standing" (0 hp). This stops the players metagaming "I can take x more hits at this rate" and adds to the feel. The players love it too, so that's a good recommendation which I second.
This really is the best way to present and play a horror game, and even non-horror games can be made quite a bit more engrossing with the use of such methods.
Personally, I've played under DMs that tell everyone how many hp the creature has (at the start of the encounter), how much damage each strike did (to the creature and from the creature), and so forth - and I find it harder to really become a part of the encounter, of the game. On the other hand, I've had others that treat it more or less as FentonGib described, and I found it much easier to get into the scene and feel of the game.
Granted, the DM often gave more of a clue as to how low the PC's hp was. Most would actually state any hp lost to the PC, while another would give clues in gradation: sort of like the 'bloddied' situation used in 4e, except that he used 3/4, 1/2, & 1/4, and had another level for 'within 10 pts of 0' if a 1/4 hp would be more than 15 pts from zero.
Personally, I've been thinking hard on converting to a variant of True20 for a while now, but I'm still not entire sure about their damage save system. I can see it working rather well in horror, where you could potentially go from fine to dying in a single hit or take multiple hits and still be fine or nearly fine.
When all is said and done, horror is about uncertainty. Can we actually survive this encounter? Do we really know what we are up against? Do we still have a way out if it becomes too much? Are those sounds I hear the coming of re-enforcements? For us . . . or for it? Uncertainty is not something that can be fully supplied in the mechanics or rules. The DM has to supply it: with the setting, with the presentation, with verbal descriptions that lack just enough details to make one not quite certain what they are fighting and also give a feel of dread.
I recall one DM - never got the chance to play under him - who would hold horror games in the evenings or at night - and under candle light instead of normal lighting. He'd have more than enough candles, so seeing your character sheet wouldn't be a problem, but from what I was told, the flickering of the candles, the occasional playing of back ground music (a great way to use some mood music or some well chosen halloween tapes), and so forth really set the scene before he even said a word. If a low powered fan was in the room, just enough to flicker the flames more often - its sound overshadowed by a cd of wind whistling through branches, it could really add to the effectiveness of the situation.
Personally, I like using original monsters - or at least altered ones - during horror campaigns. If the players are ever uncertain whether their attack is working, or even what form of attack to use, it adds to their uncertainty. PCs need to act more tactically during a horror setting. If they feel comfortable enough to just wade into the fight, then it is not a well made horror scenario. They should never be so absolutely certain - either in what attacks to use or in what they are facing - in a horror campaign. You don't even need to use traditional horror monsters. Any monster can do, if the setting is presented right. And if you just happen to add a bit of DR or SR or energy resistance to the monster, all the better.
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This says I am a NG Elf Ranger This says I am a NG Elf Ranger/Druid This says I am a NG Halfling Druid and have Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12 This says I am a Storyteller 75%, Method Actor 58%, Specialist 58%, Tactician 50%, Power Gamer 42%, Casual Gamer 8%, Butt-Kicker 0% This says I am a Major Geek: 37.67258% This says I am going to Purgatory
Last edited by Nyeshet; 6th October 2008 at 12:52 PM..
Granted, the DM often gave more of a clue as to how low the PC's hp was. Most would actually state any hp lost to the PC, while another would give clues in gradation: sort of like the 'bloddied' situation used in 4e, except that he used 3/4, 1/2, & 1/4, and had another level for 'within 10 pts of 0' if a 1/4 hp would be more than 15 pts from zero.
I try to do the same, I've got markers for half hp and quarter hp and players get used to recognising the symptoms as a gauge of how they're doing. I do try to describe similarly with the antagonists. If the players knowhow many hp the villain has they tend to (imo) metagame, but when they don't know then they think twice about picking fights.
Mind you, I've had players not pick a fight with a level 1 npc commoner just by having the commoner stand up to the players and be really cocky and confident, and the players go "oooh... this is obviously one of those characters the gm has put in to kick our butts" which is always funny (yet they pick fights with a oft-meek-seeming-but-deadly rogue)
My game sessions are always done at night (though that's more a force of circumstance since we all work than anything) but when we play Ravenloft or Cthulhu my music playlist usually consists of mostly classical pieces like the Bram Stoker Dracula soundtrack, Tochwood and Dr Who soundtracks (the players scoffed when I mentioned I was adding them to the playlist, but later commented "this song is really good?" and it was often from those soundtracks) and the likes. It helps to set the mood nicely. When we played Cthulhu I darkened them even more, and prepared props to help add feel to the game (such as a final letter from someone they knew was dead). I remember in one game having a funeral scene and I played the songs "My Immortal" and "Hello" by Evanescence and it really hit well with the players, bringing the mood down. The opening score from Dracula (which starts slowly but builds menacingly) had the players jumping at rats when they were going through the caverns.
Only problem with music is that unless you spend ages pre-preparing multiple playlists, it's a headache to handle, and often ends up with a song repeating a lot (when you don't have many songs for "that scene") or in the middle of a dark scene a "happy" song coming on unexpectedly. :S
I agree, I rarely use book-stat monsters unless it's for a random encounter. I always make them along with a history (e.g. they were a succesful ranger before being bitten by a Lycanthrope they were hunting). I then try to make the players find out the history as well as meeting the monster. This means when they meet the monster, more than once, they've questioned whether they did the right think or not. e.g. killing a Paladin-turned-lycanthrope who runs around trying to do good, but during the full moon turns, and maybe doesn't even know he's a werewolf - can add to very interesting moral dilemma. I find one of the things my players enjoy about my horror games is the moral ambiguity. I like the players second-guessing whether the monster is really a monster, of if the evil ones are the players for hunting a poor, cursed, beast. My standard D&D games however have very "heroic" feels to them so the players know what they're getting into.
Little better in a horror game than making one of the players realise a loved one is an afflicted lycanthrope, vampire or some other creature - will they still have the desire to kill the creatures?
I disagree; depending on what you want them for there are some interesting mechanics. The BRP Sanity system works fine with no bells or whistles. It's not terribly interesting, basically just mental hit points.
Check out the Madness Meter in the Nemesis rules (this is essentially the same as in Unknown Armies) here (free, it's the last thing on the page): http://www.nemesis-system.com/downloads/nemesis.doc/download.html . If you want the players to fret over their mental resources eroding, this is a great system for it. But in games with a hostile/uncaring universe in which human emotion counts for little (like Call of Cthulhu), it is overkill.
On the other hand, things like WoD's Morality system or the Taint rules from a number of d20 Variants focus on a slide towards evil. Even Star Wars has the dark/light duality.
Finally, look for rules involving "Ties" to NPCs or concepts (like the inherent goodness of humanity or some such) that can be threatened during play. OGL Horror has a simple system for NPC ties, while Trail of Cthulhu has an excellent system for both people and concepts.
__________________ "When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
I disagree; depending on what you want them for there are some interesting mechanics. The BRP Sanity system works fine with no bells or whistles. It's not terribly interesting, basically just mental hit points.
Interesting? Yes. Fun? Yes. But I don't think that's where scary resides.
Although looking back I see you're addressing the OP's actual question better than the rest of us.
I created a variant Horror effect based on the 4e disease track, and it worked fairly well. (I could post it here if anyone's interested).
The thing that conveyed the proper tone however was exactly what everyone else here was saying. It is the description and gradual build up of dread that really gets people's adrenaline pumping.
By the time the creepy little blind girl sang a nursery rhyme about the party's eventual doom, the paladin in the group was ready to bolt the room.
I recall one World of Darkness game where the players where arguing over something, and I had a crazy malkavian start singing a quiet poem (which I quietly sang whilst the players argued, whilst rocking forward and backward with a crazy expression) about the rise of the ancients and the destruction of all life and in a few minutes, they'd all just dwindled to silence and sat there staring at me in abject horror! What later scared them is when they asked him to repeat it and he couldn't recall ever singing anything (they knew occasionally he sang dark prophecies).
Sometimes the little things have a greater impact than the big ones.
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