General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
Every weapon has a speed category that affects initiative using that weapon. Very Fast (VF) weapons grant a +4 bonus to initiative. Fast (F) weapons grant a +2 bonus. Normal (N) weapons neither grant a bonus nor cause a penalty. Slow (S) weapons cause a –2 penalty to initiative, and Very Slow (VS) weapons cause a –4 penalty to initiative.
If a character is using more than one type of weapon, the default rule is that the slowest weapon determines weapon speed factor for initiative.
However, if the GM agrees, a character’s actions may be divided, taking place on more than one point in the initiative count. A character making a non-attack action can have his actions divided in the same way, so that weapon speed doesn’t come into play until after his initial action.
Once a character has used his weapon (including selecting a combat mode), weapon speed affects all subsequent initiative phases of that round. For example, a character using a Very Slow weapon (–4 penalty) otherwise has a 12 initiative (a 10 on the die roll, plus a +2 Dexterity modifier), could move on phase 12 and gain an extra action on phase 2. That second action cannot be an attack with the Very Slow weapon, however, because 2 – 4 = –2. Alternatively, the character could attack on phase 8 (12 – 4 = 8).
These options increase the complexity of determining initiative phases considerably, but add to realism and the tactical choices available to players. When adjudicating hordes of creatures, the GM is advised to use the simplest method himself.
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
OK, I've skimmed through the preview and the thread here, and have some thoughts.
Classes look simpler. Lack of feats is simpler. Combat modes are more complex, but could lead to simplicity with preparation. Races are about the same - frontloaded misc grab bags of little abilities and bonuses. +/- % to xp (ie, human) first thing I ignore in rules. Dislike piddling around with xp. If humans "learn faster", give them more skill points, or skills, or a bonus talent of their choice, or the ability to start at 2nd level or something.
Combat, with surprise and initiative and weapon speed and actions and reactions, looks a lot more complex, at least in the back end/planning/prep stages (ie, you can go through and write alot of stuff down ahead of time, but it's still more complex.)
Not sure how spell power is going to balance without some kind of heavy rewrite to spells. Clerics/druids/sorcerers top out at 7th, wizards at 9th?
Do NOT like HD caps on small races. Implies hit points are solely a function of size, not ability to evade or absorb a blow as is traditional in D&D. Also will dampen "heroic" inclinations for players. Are Tiny creatures limited to d4? Do Fine creatures only get a hit point per HD? Looks like a misplaced stab at "realism" taking precedence over fun/heroism.
Explanation on ability scores, ability bonuses, and penalties to scores affecting bonuses solidified my choice to switch to bonuses only for ability scores (no more 3-18). 3-18 pointless complexity if bonuses are fixed as per d20 standard. Definition of sacred cow.
Would like to see overview/sketch definition of rules, spells, combat, etc, and all as you see them right now. Preferably in pdf.
Levels 1-15 seems arbitrary from a mechanical standpoint. not a problem, really, just looks like a perceptiual not mechanical fix. Class abilities generally OK; have not read in detail.
Like ability saves; would like to see examples of which spells require which saves. Charisma = Willpower/Wisdom=Perception intellectually understandable; emotionally or intuitively problematic. have not found good solution.
All for now!
Despite critical commentary, interest remains present and favorable.
If you like the game, except for a few pieces, by all means houserule them! If you don't like the game except for a few pieces, by all means use those pieces as houserules!
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Thank you for your in-depth commentary, Nellisir!
The RCFG philosophy is:
If you like the game, except for a few pieces, by all means houserule them! If you don't like the game except for a few pieces, by all means use those pieces as houserules!
RC
EDIT: NEVERMIND! Silly me, I just noticed you have me an "Experience Point" for the post. So, probably not snarky.
EDIT: NEVERMIND! Silly me, I just noticed you have me an "Experience Point" for the post. So, probably not snarky.
No snark...purely sincere! I very much appreciate your comments, and encourage you to use whatever bits & pieces you like.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
There are two types of combat skill use. One is using a skill to gain a combat advantage, the other is simply using a skill while in combat.
When trying to use a skill to gain a combat advantage, a character makes a skill check at a set DC (10, 15, 20, etc., in units of 5). If the check succeeds, the character can make an attack as a reaction with a bonus based on the DC. At DC 10, the character gains a +2 bonus for a success. This increases to +4 for DC 15, +6 for DC 20, +8 for DC 25, and so on. This bonus may be applied to the character’s Armour Class, attack roll, or damage, or divided equally between two of these. Any skill may be used, so long as its use can be justified within the framework of the game narrative. For example, a character can make a feint in combat using a Bluff skill check, swing from a chandelier with Acrobatics, Intimidate an opponent into a weaker attack, or even use his Knowledge to hit an enemy right where it hurts. The advantage sought, and the skill used must be defined before the roll, and if the skill check fails, the character doesn’t gain an attack as a reaction.
A character can also make a skill check in combat. Perhaps while combat rages, one character makes a Healing check to stabilize another. Or, while the fighters hold off a horde of goblins, a rogue might try desperately to pick the locked door that bars their escape. In general, characters suffer a penalty of –4 or more to mundane skill checks made under stressful circumstances unless they also succeed in a DC 15 Concentration check (this does not apply to skill checks made as part of combat, such as when using active defence or seeking to gain combat advantage). This sort of skill check may, at the GM’s discretion, provoke attacks of opportunity as well.
SIDEBAR: Advantages of Combat Advantage
Because DCs in RCFG don’t get higher as characters gain levels, eventually gaining combat advantages of +2 or higher becomes simple for characters. This is intended. Not only does combat advantage emulate pulp adventure fiction, but it helps make the increased number of reactions available to higher-level characters useful – even against a single enemy.
Combat advantage is worked into the statistics of many RCFG monsters as well. Lions and tigers, for example, prefer to initiate combat with a pounce – gambling their Acrobatics skill for a better chance to hit and extra damage. Likewise, crocodiles are notorious for their death roll – using Swim to gain a combat advantage over seized opponents to increase their damage.
RCFG combat is intended to be fast-paced and inventive. When a player suggests how combat skill use might provide his character with a combat advantage, the GM is encouraged to view the idea in the best possible light.
Even so, when the GM is not convinced that Wilderness Lore applies to fighting slimes in a dungeon environment, it is the GM’s decision that is final.
(Those familiar with “old school” RPGs may recognize this as an intentional bridge between the “player description/inventiveness determines bonus” style of those games and the “character sheet determines bonuses” style of most “modern” games. A roll still determines the outcome, but it is the force of the player’s narrative – through the judgment of the GM – that grants the ability to roll.
It is the belief of this author that immersion is greatly enhanced when PC abilities foster attention to – and a degree of ownership of – the ongoing narrative of the game. Put another way, players tend to pay more attention to a narrative when doing so grants them additional ability to control that narrative.)
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Standard saving throws are reactions. It is also possible to make a saving throw as an action. This is called an “action save”. Action saves are like skills in several ways. Unlike normal saves, action saves do not always fail on a natural “1” or succeed on a natural “20”. Depending upon circumstances, a character can even take 10 or 20 on an action save.
If an action save fail, it usually cannot be attempted again until the character’s save bonus increases. Thus, a character who cannot lift a gate on his attempt will not be able to simply keep rolling until he succeeds.
Action saves can also be used like skills to simulate contests. A contest of wills might use Opposed DS in conjunction with Willpower saves. Two opponents attempting to throw each other off a cliff might use Opposed DS in conjunction with Prowess saves to determine who falls. If the contest is close enough, perhaps both fall.
“Action Save” is abbreviated “AS”, so that “Bend Bars AS Prow DC 35” would be used to indicate bars that a DC 35 Prowess action save could bend.
SIDEBAR: Puzzles, Riddles, and Action Saves
Optionally, action saves can be used to solve riddles and puzzles. For example, “Riddle AS Reas DC 25”. Where the GM does not allow this option, he can instead opt to give additional clues on a successful Reasoning action save. For example, “Riddle AS Reas DC 25, on success character realizes that riddle is related to water.” Again, this allows a bridge between “old school” and “modern” play styles.
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Hrm. I may be in love with your combat advantage thing.
It will be appearing as OGC with an OGL license attached as soon as I finish preview 2, so use it with Darkwater if you want. Just update your OGL section when Preview #2 comes out.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Okay, first off Preview #2: Skills & Combat is available on my website for free download. Comments, criticisms, playtesting, and XP are all gratefully received.
Please do not view any replies in this thread as snark. I really, really, really appreciate the comments of everyone who has de-lurked here! Extra eyes can catch things I might have missed!
Second, one might notice that the design is somewhat reactive to various EN World threads. For example, "Shot on the Run" relates to the idea in the "Tucker's Kobolds" thread that most DM's wouldn't allow a ranged attack during a move.
If there are things you'd like your characters to do within this ruleset, that you don't see supported right now, let me know! I'm not trying to include a "rule for everything" ala 3e, but I do want to cover the most common requests.
Third, RCFG Preview #3 will be Spells & Spellcasting. A large undertaking, but one that benefits from a lot of cut & paste, so hopefully out before the end of February.
Finally, a bit of preview from the most recent release:
Preview: Getting the Drop
In some cases, one character can “get the drop” on one or more characters. Getting the drop essentially means that the character is threatened by a weapon, which the threatening character can use before the threatened character can react. A character can get the drop on another by having a readied missile weapon, holding a dagger to a throat, or any number of other means. It is even possible to get the drop on a character using unarmed attacks.
A character can get the drop on another in the following ways:
• A character can automatically get the drop on a paralyzed, stunned, sleeping, or helpless creature. This is a reaction.
• A character or creature can get the drop on any other creature it totally surprises. Getting the drop takes place in lieu of an actual attack.
• A character or creature can get the drop on any creature that it can observe for at least three rounds without that creature being aware. This allows the “getting the drop” mechanic to be used to simulate hunting from a blind or the attacks of ambush predators.
• As an action, a character can attempt to get the drop on any other creature. This requires an opposed check of some sort (but not necessarily of the same skill). The attacker has a –4 penalty to this check. The defender is allowed to make his opposed check as a reaction, and – if he wins – gains an attack of opportunity on the attacker as part of the same reaction.
A character that has the drop on another creature may make an attack as a free reaction. He gains a +4 bonus to his attack roll, and gains extra damage if he succeeds as follows:
• An Untrained character gains one extra damage die for the attack. Thus, if firing an arrow that does 1d8 damage, the Untrained character rolls 2d8 instead.
• Trained characters can spend ranks to increase damage, on the basis of 1 extra damage die per 2 ranks spent. A character with a light crossbow and 4 ranks in Crossbow, therefore, can choose to spend those ranks for 2 extra damage dice, in addition to the 1 extra damage die gained by Untrained characters. Thus, the light crossbow shot, if successful, would deal 4d8 points of damage.
The longer a character has the drop, the harder it is to maintain. The drop may be retained for three rounds without difficulty, but every round thereafter, the defender may test the character with the drop, using a Reflexes save or a skill check (such as Bluff) to do so. This is an action. The defender gains a +1 bonus to this check for every three rounds (or portion thereof) the drop is held past the first three rounds. The character with the drop makes an opposing Perception save as a free reaction. If the defender wins by 5 or more, he may negate the other character’s drop as a reaction. If the defender fails by 5 or more, it is as though the drop were just gained – it is automatically maintained for three rounds, and any bonus the defender gains for the time the drop is held must begin anew.
The character with the drop may simply attack the defender when tested instead of trying to maintain the drop. If he does so, he gains the benefit of extra damage, but loses the +4 bonus to his attack roll. Of course, if he wins the test, the character with the drop may make an attack immediately thereafter with all the benefits of the drop.
This mechanic may be used for a number of reasons:
• When a character is hunting from a blind, he may now potentially take down a game animal in a single shot regardless of its Hit Dice. Indeed, a good enough archer could potentially slay a dragon in this manner.
• The drop can be used to sneak up on and eliminate guards before they can cry out, if the attacker can manage to achieve total surprise.
• The drop can be used to initiate dialogues within adventures, either because the PCs get the drop on NPCs, or vice versa. A break in hostilities can lead to negotiation, dropped clues, or even exchanged taunts or witticisms, in the best tradition of film and television.
• The drop can be used to allow for the capture of opponents.
• The drop can be used to hold someone hostage, allowing for escape. Again, while this might mean that a villain survives to bedevil the PCs, it might also mean that the PCs survive by taking the orc chieftain hostage.
• As a more powerful, but dangerous, form of combat advantage. A character might try to get the drop using an opposed check simply to do extra damage against a powerful foe. As failure to get the drop draws an attack of opportunity, a character might attempt this simply because he believes a foe has no reactions left and has already expended an adrenalin surge.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Your 'Getting the Drop' mechanic is awesome. I fooled around with something similar in my own games for a while, but could never get it quite right. This is pretty much dead on. Consider it yoinked.
__________________ It's a big world out there. Go tear it up.
Your 'Getting the Drop' mechanic is awesome. I fooled around with something similar in my own games for a while, but could never get it quite right. This is pretty much dead on. Consider it yoinked.
Thank you very kindly. I realize that the final copy of RCFG is going to need a bit of spit & polish to organize it properly, and that there are some things that I probably haven't explained as well as possible. Everything here is first draft.
That said, you could, right now, make non-spellcasting characters and give the combat system a trial. I would suggest using monster builds from Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry for that purpose, until The Big Book of Monsters preveiws start rolling in. I think you'll have a lot of fun.
I have worked hard to make the rules tactically interesting, without relying overmuch on specifics or a grid. Not only that, but I think you'll get a lot more adventuring done than the one-combat-per-hour standard that seems to be the current norm.
I know I'd be interested in your experiences.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Is there a reason "get the drop" isn't simply called "ambush"? This is a stylistic nitpick, but I think you're excessively colloquial in some cases. It's a little bit distracting.
Is there a reason "get the drop" isn't simply called "ambush"? This is a stylistic nitpick, but I think you're excessively colloquial in some cases. It's a little bit distracting.
The mechanic is intended to cover ambushes, it is true, but it is also intended to cover a lot of other situations:
* In a fist-fight, Captain Kirk rises to realize his foe has picked up a phaser, and has it pointed right at him. Later, Kirk will turn the tables on his opponent, once he is distracted.
* Tarzan leaps from the path of an oncoming lion, landing on its back and doing far more than 1d4 with his subsequent knife thrust.
* Inigo holds the six-fingered man at sword-point, bantering with him before killing him.
* While in a grapple, Conan takes a desperate chance, lowering his guard to break the back of his iron-muscled adversary.
* Bard shoots the Black Arrow at Smaug, felling him with one shot.
* Jake and Elwood Blues, having just paid the orphanage's back taxes at the Cook County Assessor's Office, discover that the police, the National Guard, SWAT teams, etc., have gotten the drop on them.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
The spell lists are nearly done; still working on specialist wizards' lists. I'll throw up the spell lists on my web site when they are done.
In the meantime, has anyone else played with the combat system? I know it works well for me; I would be interested in anyone else's experience.
Once the spells are done, I'll be working on several low- to mid-level "staple" monsters, as well as a huge megadungeon that uses these rules (but could be converted to other rules as well).
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
I am planning on running a "playtest module" for RCFG this Thursday. If there is enough interest (response), I will post the "playtest module" here, along with notes as to what happened during the playtest. Because spell lists/descriptions aren't completed yet, this playtest will assume non-spellcasting 1st-level characters.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
If I was going to go back to roll-each-round, that is the way I would do it. Very interesting.
Thank you.
I went back to roll-each-round with 3e, and it was the best rules change that I made. Roll-each-round invests players in paying attention to what is happening in a way that wait-your-cyclic-turn doesn't (IMHO and IME). Plus, it means that haste and slow can be handled as Init mods.
Quote:
EDIT: Reminiscent of Shadowrun, but probably better balanced. I'll comment some more when I've had a chance to read through the previews docs.
I've never played Shadowrun, but I've heard good things.
I look forward to your comments when they come!
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
![[RCFG] RCFG Ongoing Development!](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/general-rpg-rules-discussion/rcfg-rcfg-ongoing-development_ltr.gif)
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