General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
I'm looking for what people have used for their house rules.
The only two I have right now is that I am limiting the Force Training feat that it can be chosen a maximum of three times, and to keep the balance with other classes, I'm going with the following limitation: Can be selected once between levels 1 through 6, the second time between levels 7 through 12, and the third time between levels 13 and 20. These are also the three tiers in the game (Padawan, Knight, Master).
The other is that when a person multiclasses they have the option of either picking one of the starting feats on the lists or gain a new Skill Training feat from the new class's class skill list.
What have you guys come up with and how has it worked?
I use the old means of measuring diagonal movement, with every other square counting as two; I just didn't like that characters could move further if they did it diagonally.
My group is playing SWSE because some players didn't want to play 4E and I don't want to DM 3.x anymore. It's a nice compromise but my houserules definitely have a 4E influence.
Homerules:
My campaign uses the latest errata (8/2008 as of this writing) found here.
Characters use the point buy method for abilities with 28 points instead of 25. Droid PCs start with 24 points instead of 21.
Hit points after level one are half the max die value plus 1.
The skills Climb, Jump, and Swim are combined into Athletics (Str) and its a class skill for the classes Jedi, Scout, and Soldier.
Ride is rolled into Acrobatics (Dex).
All starting characters, regardless of level, get max credits for their first level class’ starting credits.
The feat Skill Focus (Use The Force) can’t be taken until a character qualifies for a prestige class with a requirement of Use The Force as a trained skill.
Movement along the diagonal cost 1 square of movement.
Area effects (for instance force slam or grenades) make one damage roll for all opponents but one attack for each target in the area. Attacks that miss against targets with cover do no damage instead of half damage.
Critical hits don’t do double damage. Instead the damage is maxed and the character adds an additional amount based on level. Levels 1-7 add 1d6, 8-15 add 2d6, and 15 or higher add 3d6.
I'm also considering houseruling the condition track to prevent the CT sniper build, but I haven't done it yet.
__________________ Respect the narrative! Tame the plot!
Got a whole 20+ page document of them (currently working on v2.0, which is just about ready to be rolled out). But here's a summary of what's covered (and in no particular order):
- Climb, Jump, and Swim have been rolled into Athletics (had taken this out on the last release, chose to put it back in)
- Diagonal movement has no extra cost (worked just fine for 4e, and makes moving around a battle mat that much easier to figure out for newer players)
- An expansion of the Lightsaber Form powers. It used to be just padding out the talents, but I've got a new system in place that works pretty well and doesn't make the talents potential game-breakers with some of the added stuff they can do.
- Block and Deflect rolled into one talent, Deflect Attacks.
- Redirect Shot can be used more than once per round.
- Several new uses for skills, from Entertaining (Persuasion) to Seduce (Deception) to Tactical Assessment (Knowledge [tactics])
- Treat Injury working a little faster for less downtime spent recovering (a bacta tank won't always be handy when you need it most)
- Human (and Chiss) Bonus Skills can be chosen from any skill, not just the ones on their initial class list
- Ithorian Bellow is spelled out as an area effect (it has all the treats of an area effect just lacks the descriptor)
- Battle Meditation is now a Force power instead of a Jedi class talent
- New Destiny choices, such as Betrayal, Heroic Sacrifice, Romance, and Self-Awareness
- Multiclass characters can choose Skill Training in one of skills of the new class' list instead of the usual medley of starting feats.
- Several new feats and talents, as well as some revisions of existing ones.
- Revisions to existing Force powers and some Force techniques, as well as some brand new Force techniques for powers that have been overlooked so far.
- A bunch of new uses for the Unleashed feat, as well as a section that ramps up Force using characters quite a bit (I'll admit that this section isn't for everyone; heck I don't even use them all the time)
Area effects (for instance force slam or grenades) make one damage roll for all opponents but one attack for each target in the area. Attacks that miss against targets with cover do no damage instead of half damage.
Interesting choice to lump Ride in with Acrobatics. Given how much good stuff already comes with Acrobatics (namely tumbling but also stand & fall prone at reduced action costs and reduced falling damage), I would think if you were going to merge Ride with another skill, then Pilot might be a more natural choice, as both have to deal with directing your mode of transport.
As for area-effects, our group has been doing "One attack roll, one damage roll" to keep combats from getting too dragged down in the instances where PCs are able to hit a lot of targets at once. Then again, we've also been really grooving on the squad/swarm rules, which treats small groups as a single entity, so it may be something of a moot point.
You make an interesting point about the ride and pilot and I'll have to consider it. Riding hasn't really come up in my adventures and I don't foresee it being an issue in the near future.
As for the area attacks, I had a couple bad experiences as a dm with area attacks. First level characters got critted by storm trooper with a grenade launcher. I almost had a tpk (yes I know you don't get extra damage on a crit with an area attack but they were down on low hps anyway and hiding behind cover). I changed it to the 4E way to make it less swingy and so that getting a crit is always a good thing.
I'm also considering changing healing which seems to be the weak link in my campaign. I've been going over the last Jed Counseling article and its list of healing tweaks.
__________________ Respect the narrative! Tame the plot!
Derek, has there been any issue with restricting Skill Focus with the Use the Force skill like that, like is it a balance issue with picking that skill over all the others? I'm curious where that came from.
Derek, has there been any issue with restricting Skill Focus with the Use the Force skill like that, like is it a balance issue with picking that skill over all the others? I'm curious where that came from.
It's because of the whole using skills to attack defences, which (because they go up at different rates, and skills are so front loaded) is a silly rule, one I would consider the worst in SAGA.
It's because a low level character who takes skill focus UTF & force trainingx2 as soon as possible has both a UTF check higher than their opponents defence, and enough force powers to last an encounter. Delaying access to skill focus UTF to until 8th or 9th level allows the difference in scaling between skills and defences to take effect (and occasionally the added bonuses from multiclassing and prestige classes), such that defences are at least 3 or 4 points higher than UTF checks.
Our group uses the level limit, and I've seen it recommended here, on the Wizards forums and rpg.net at various times.
Pumpkin said better than I could. Donovan makes a good point in another thread that the fault may be the Skill Focus feat in general and not just Skill Focus: Use The Force. I'm going to be houseruling it to require a character level of 8th or higher.
__________________ Respect the narrative! Tame the plot!
Donovan makes a good point in another thread that the fault may be the Skill Focus feat in general and not just Skill Focus: Use The Force.
Well, lets do the math real quick.
Defenses:
10 + Level + Class bonus + Ability bonus. For first level characters this will average 12 + Ability bonus.
By 9th level this will average 21 + Ability bonus.
Skills (trained and focused):
10 + 1/2 Level + Ability bonus + d20 roll. For first level characters this will average 10 + Ability bonus + d20 roll. By 9th level this will average 14 + Ability bonus + d20 roll.
It's entirely possible for a Skill Focus character to have a skill modifier that exceeds the target's relevant defense score, before dice are rolled at low- to mid-levels. For mid- to high-levels, skill users need to roll moderate to well to successfully affect targets. For very high levels (18 to 20), you're looking at needing a 10 to 16 before ability bonuses, depending upon feats and class bonuses.
Obviously, this is back-of-the-envelope examples, but it's a good point to keep in mind when looking at Saga and how it handles skills.
For any skill that goes against defenses (Deception, Persuasion, Use Computers, and Use the Force) Skill Focus is brokenly good before 10th level. After 10th level, it's still extremely powerful, though it slowly slides into the "necessary" category as you reach the end-game levels. Skill Focus never quite becomes necessary for skill reliant characters, but it does get close.
I hope that clarifies it some, as well as illuminating why it is such a commonly cited issue.
Donovan makes a good point in another thread that the fault may be the Skill Focus feat in general and not just Skill Focus: Use The Force.
Thanks
As for a Skill Focus fix, one idea I've seen bandied about on the WotC boards is to change how Skill Focus works entirely rather than restricting the level you can take it at. Instead of a flat +5 bonus, it would let you add your full character level to skill checks instead of half your level. Makes of minimal benefit at lower levels, but could get overpowering at the high end of things. Does however let the skill in question scale a bit better with Defense scores, useful not only for Force powers but for Persuasion and Deception checks as well.
Another potential notion is to have the benefit of the feat scale as the PC gains levels. For levels 1 thru 7, Skill Focus only provides a +2 bonus to the relevant skill. From 8th (generally when PCs graduate to prestige classes) to 15th level, it provides a +5 bonus, and from 16th (PCs are virtually gods amongst men) to 20th it becomes a +10. Not sure how the math would entirely work on this one, particularly at the higher end, but it would work to keep Skill Focus from being too powerful at lower levels.
You could probably do just fine with a simple +3. It would radically lower the total benefit, making it much less powerful at any level, while still making it genuinely useful at every level.
As for a Skill Focus fix, one idea I've seen bandied about on the WotC boards is to change how Skill Focus works entirely rather than restricting the level you can take it at. Instead of a flat +5 bonus, it would let you add your full character level to skill checks instead of half your level. Makes of minimal benefit at lower levels, but could get overpowering at the high end of things. Does however let the skill in question scale a bit better with Defense scores, useful not only for Force powers but for Persuasion and Deception checks as well.
This was my solution when I first read Saga Edition. Funny to think it was dismissed by then, but now is coming back into fashion. That, or I just like to think I'm ahead of the curve.
At first level you are four points behind RAW, by 9th and 10th you are equal to RAW, and by 20th 5 points greater than RAW. But, like Donovan pointed out, it now scales with defenses, so to me it makes a lot of sense and is a cake walk to implement.
Another home rule I use, because my adventures are set during the early Rebellion Era, is what I call Bounty Points. Heroes earn them if they perform acts of sedition and witnesses are present, at the GM's discretion; the number they accrue can bring certain penalties.
Total Penalty Recognition
0 -0 None
1-2 -0 Hometown
3-5 -2 Homeworld
6-9 -2 Home System
10-14 -5 Many Systems
15-20 -5 Many Civilized Systems
21+ -10 Galaxywide
Penalties can apply to Deception checks made by the Heroes to conceal their identities and that kind of thing. Recognition gives a rough estimate of the places where people might know their faces, and should of course also include the places where they have earned their Bounty Points. The ranges of numbers on the table are inspired by the old rules for Reputation from the original D20 Star Wars RPG.
I also have characters combine their ability modifiers for Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma to determine their Gamble check; this represents their ability to count cards, read their opponents and bluff.
Pumpkin said better than I could. Donovan makes a good point in another thread that the fault may be the Skill Focus feat in general and not just Skill Focus: Use The Force. I'm going to be houseruling it to require a character level of 8th or higher.
Honestly, just requiring 3rd level or higher is probably sufficient, just enough to give everyone a fighting chance.
Our group added Quickness (Initiative) as the 18th skill. There is no difference in mechanics, but we needed an even number of skills.
Skill advancement is no longer done zero at odd levels, 18 at even levels, with all advancement being equal.
Every three levels, characters gain nine skill points each. The first and third levels, the character gains their nine most preferred skills. The middle level the character gains their nine least preferred skills.
The numbers do not make a big difference, but it does have some better advancement with the skills that are preferred by the character, and are more likely to work on developing.
.
Note: If this is the wrong thread, please delete this post.
__________________ "Democracy must be something more than two gnolls and an elf voting on what to have for dinner."
Last edited by Hereticus; 28th June 2009 at 01:17 PM..
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
