General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
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Here's an idea I had to address some "problems" with high level spellcasters, and some of the most decried spells.
1) If a creature with spell resistance is inside the area of effect when the spell is cast, the caster must make a check against SR. If the caster fails to penetrate the SR, the spell fails. (If multiple creatures with SR are inside the area, only the highest applies.)
2) SR always applies. Ignore "Spell Resistance: No" in the spell description.
Note that this only applies as the spell is cast. A creature with SR can't "dispel" an existing effect.
Hopefully I'll get the poll options right for a good discussion.
Spell Resistance would become a Spell Armor Class with an added benefit of affecting whole areas.
The importance of SR would skyrocket as a single character with high SR would provide protective umbrella for a whole party while AOE effects would become useless at higher levels (too unreliable to be effective).
...
Not a good idea.
...
Countersuggestion: Turn an SR into binary property of a character with the following ability: Spell resistance: Whenever you pass a save against a spell, spell like ability, supernatural ability or any area effect, may ignore partial, special or secondary effects. This ability does not allow to ignore "halved damage" results.
Regards,
Ruemere
__________________ Keeper of Scarred Lands Repository. Keep your .sig fit - save space and bandwidth.
Just so we are on the same page, could you describe a scenario where the problem is apparent? Are we talking orb spells against golems, or what?
Just to pick one spell out of a hat: Solid Fog. Lots of large area conjurations (cloudkill, evard's tentacles). And a few [force] evocations: forcecage probably tops.
Actually ruemere can probably do a better job-- he red flagged a lot of spells to me in private conversations-- because I'm personally probably more in the "What problem?" camp.
(But I know a lot of folks who aren't.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruemere
The importance of SR would skyrocket as a single character with high SR would provide protective umbrella for a whole party while AOE effects would become useless at higher levels (too unreliable to be effective).
Not a good idea.
With the caveat that I'm playing devil's advocate here:
I'm not so sure what's wrong with forcing the casters to target around/away from SR-laden BBEGs, and/or to give the high-level fighters something really important to do (take out that BBEG).
It becomes a matter of spell selection and spell targeting-- both of which would change. But my concern would be that it forces the casters (in order to squeeze out the most effectiveness per spell/per action) to be buff buddies for the frontline fighters.
(For a really good demonstration of this in action: High-level D&D Online raids. The BBEG's are immune to almost every spell there is other than straight damage.)
I'm not so sure what's wrong with forcing the casters to target around/away from SR-laden BBEGs, and/or to give the high-level fighters something really important to do (take out that BBEG)
Well...
This is the same on/off class nerfing the rogue suffers from currently in 3.x. If (for example) you were fighting a golem (or an undead with SR) with the typical party of four (cleric, fighter, wizard, rogue) 75% of the group would not be able to utilize their class features against them (SR, crit immunity). Granted, the fighter could be super-buffed and healed every round (the former assuming the wizard focused on buffing, not direct damage) but I'm not a fan of an encounter than effectively shuts out players from their roles.
(BTW: I'm not a fan of obscure DR for that reason. A lich with high SR under this theoretical system would be nearly impossible without a magical mace or 2-h power attack; ditto with a golem without an adamantine weapon).
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I am not quite sure what category i am to vote for:
if the problem is this:
if the 'BBEG' is a group of wizards with a stone guardian or golum that has spell resistance, and the party wizard casts a fire ball, then you attempt spell resistance from the golum thing and if it succeeds, the whole area of effect (fireball) is negated?
if that is the question then:
I acknowledge there is a problem, have not reached high level caster yet and think the spell resistance effect should read that the one with the resistance should only ignore the effect as i do belive resistance does not dispell. therefore the group of 'BBEG' wizards all get cooked by the fireball as per their individual saves.
(For a really good demonstration of this in action: High-level D&D Online raids. The BBEG's are immune to almost every spell there is other than straight damage.)
And why is that a good thing?
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Put me in the problem of "I don't see a problem with high level no save, no SR spells in principle."
Now, there may be problems with particular spells in practice, and I would worry about no save spells (like Otto's Irresistable Dance) more than no save, no SR spells like acid fog. If that is the case, though, the answer is to deal with those particular spells rather than to turn SR into a group shield mechanic.
Not to totally derail this but I like SR as representing a Save bonus vs. magic as opposed to an odd magic negation or the more normal ignore magic.
+2 for low SR
+5 for high SR
Stripping out the effect level/HD gives you can come up with: low or high. And if you think they should be Immune to certain effects give them Evasion and/or Mettle.
[...]With the caveat that I'm playing devil's advocate here:
I'm not so sure what's wrong with forcing the casters to target around/away from SR-laden BBEGs, and/or to give the high-level fighters something really important to do (take out that BBEG).
It becomes a matter of spell selection and spell targeting-- both of which would change. But my concern would be that it forces the casters (in order to squeeze out the most effectiveness per spell/per action) to be buff buddies for the frontline fighters.
(For a really good demonstration of this in action: High-level D&D Online raids. The BBEG's are immune to almost every spell there is other than straight damage.)
My primary concern lies with nerfing AOE attacks. Evocation is pretty stumped now, lessening further its role is not a good idea. Oh, and in case I am not making myself clear, I refer to this: 1) If a creature with spell resistance is inside the area of effect when the spell is cast, the caster must make a check against SR. If the caster fails to penetrate the SR, the spell fails [Whole AOE effect is wasted because of an individual - me]. (If multiple creatures with SR are inside the area, only the highest applies.)
No amount of targeting is likely to help an evoker.
Secondly, I am all for standardizing spell descriptions, however, adding additional mechanic to saves is a bit awkward - there should be only a single layer of protection used (to simplify resolution step), and because of this SR should modify final result instead of adding another step and another roll.
Regards,
Ruemere
__________________ Keeper of Scarred Lands Repository. Keep your .sig fit - save space and bandwidth.
How about making SR more like Evasion, or allowing a second saving throw (or both)? What's the ability that allows you to make a second save versus an enchantment effect... Mettle?
SR is one of the things that seems to me to not work very well in 3.X. I think the key thing is to make the benefit something that is both simple mechanically, and also is thematically similar to other familiar effects, making it easy to recall when it comes up.
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