General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
3) Most of the complaints I've heard are that SW doesn't do Supers well, though I have also heard of ongoing Necessary Evil campaigns.
I have GMed a Necessary Evil game for a few months now, and the characters who have been around since the beginning are JUST on the cusp of Veteran right now.
The biggest issue we've hit is that, compared to past supers games, the powers just aren't as flexible (on the fly stunts, etc)...the game itself has been TREMENDOUS, however, with much enjoyment by all...but I don't see it being quite good enough of a fit to become our new default supers game...in fact, I'm thinking about pulling a big switcheroo at the end of the Plot Point campaign and converting it to Marvel SAGA (our favorite supers system) since I kinda want to play SAGA again, just divorced from the Marvel setting.
daring Tales of Adventure does pulp very welll......its adds a few things to the SW rule sets to make the PC more potent and fit in with the 1930 pulp feel.
such as everyone gtes an extra benny for each combat, some wounds heal automatically after combat, PC capture/surrender is a good option (and nice plot device), poeple have external contacts they can call on (think Mummy where O connor always find a pilot he needs)
3) Most of the complaints I've heard are that SW doesn't do Supers well, though I have also heard of ongoing Necessary Evil campaigns.
My criticism that it doesn't do supers well comes from me playing in a great Necessary Evil game! It's honestly not that it's particularly bad at it, it's just that compared to M&M it's not nearly as good. This hasn't stopped our Necessary Evil game from being one of the best I've played, though. It's a LOT of fun.
I think it's just a matter of expectation (forgive me if I typed this earlier): "Super-Villain" conjures up a certain level of power, and in reality you start out more like the power of a henchmen. If that were clear up front it would have been better. And though it's perhaps not the best supers game, it's still a great game, so please don't read too much into my criticism.
I've played in Savage World games a few times here and there. Generally it does what it advertises, its fast and furious. I also consider it a pretty gritty system, its easy to get messed up very quickly once you run out of bennies.
Things it does well:
1) Quick character creation
2) Quick combat running
3) Very smooth power progression
4) Handles improvising decently well.
5) Bennies are fun!
Things I'm okay with.
1) Removing your attributes from your actual abilities. For the most part, in SW your abilities don't do much, they just determine the cost of skills and the like. I used to absolutely hate that, but I am warming up to it bit by bit.
Things I don't like.
1) The over reliance of bennies. I don't feel that bennies are a small power supplement to a fight, I feel they are one of the critical factors. A player with a few bennies will do far better than a player who doesn't have any.
2) Creatures seem too tough. I often feel if I'm not doing a stunt or a called shot I can't hurt a lot of what I have fought in the past. That said, called shots seem too good in many cases.
A short while ago, I was due to run a game in an hour and I needed to stat up a diverse set of enemies (humanoids, giant crustaceans, alien monsters, dinosaurs) so I gritted my teeth and hoped I'd finish most of them in time...
...and then fifteen minutes later, I was done. Blew my mind.
Things I'm okay with.
1) Removing your attributes from your actual abilities. For the most part, in SW your abilities don't do much, they just determine the cost of skills and the like. I used to absolutely hate that, but I am warming up to it bit by bit.
Well Spirit is needed to recover from being shaken, and Vigor is needed to make wound checks. So those are pretty important.
__________________ 28 days... six hours... 42 minutes... 12 seconds. That... is when the world... will end.
Your abilities do quite a lot in SW, particularly in combat.
Strength - Melee weapon damage, and determines what kinds of ranged weapons you can use
Vigor - Roll Vigor when soaking wounds. (a big deal)
Spirit - Roll Spirit to recover from being Shaken (also a big deal)
Smarts - Smarts Tricks, which can give an enemy -2 defense or Shake them
Agility - Agility Tricks, which work the same way
It may seem like Smarts/Agility don't come up that much unless you're using Tricks, but remember that Tricks are opposed by the opponent's Agility or Smarts, so a low Smarts/Agility leaves you vulnerable to a canny foe.
One of the "frustrating" things about Savage Worlds character generation is how darn important ALL of the stats are - a player that stacks most of their points in one or two stats will have a fairly hard go of it. Helps keep the munchkins in check a little
Last edited by Kunimatyu; 13th July 2009 at 11:29 PM..
Abilities definitely do something, but I also feel they are not doing enough when it comes to skills (only determining the cost of the skills to some degree).
We use a house rule, that you do not get a d6, but your corresponding ability die as a wild die when making any skill roll. Despite initial worries, that it might be a bit much, it works very well and definitely underlines the value of all the abilities.
We also use a house rule for initiative, that you make an agility or smarts roll (your choice) at the start of a round to determine how many cards you can draw (one plus one extra for a success and every raise on that roll); you can keep one and give back the others.
I like both, since they make ability scores more "present", and also initiative is a little less completely random.
Of course, YMMV, as usual.
Bye
Thanee
__________________
In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!
In Memoriam Dave Arneson ( April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax ( March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
We use a house rule, that you do not get a d6, but your corresponding ability die as a wild die when making any skill roll. Despite initial worries, that it might be a bit much, it works very well and definitely underlines the value of all the abilities.
You're sort of screwing yourself out of the exploding die that way, aren't you?
Thanee, the slight disassociation between skills and abilities is intentional - a high Agility makes it easier to quickly increase fighting, but it's still possible to build a perfectly competant character who uses a few Agility skills without actually training up Agility that high.
By more tightly coupling abilities to skills, you're unnecessarily restricting the available "character space" and substantially messing with some of the Legendary tier Edges that give you the ability to do some of the things.
Also, initiative is many things, but a crap shoot it's not - Quick, Level Headed, Improved Level Headed, and a power I'm forgetting at the moment can substantially alter your fortunes. Initiative is just random enough to keep players on their toes and excited about the next round being dealt.
For those reading the thread who haven't played SW yet, the take-home message is this: SW works great as written, and doesn't require extensive house ruling. Really!
When I first saw the system I immediately started thinking of house rules to "fix" things, but after playing the game for the better part of a year, I see that it's a fairly robust design that doesn't really need house rules unless you want something genre-specific (high noon duels for a western, superhero strength to toss people, etc).
Thanee, the slight disassociation between skills and abilities is intentional - a high Agility makes it easier to quickly increase fighting, but it's still possible to build a perfectly competant character who uses a few Agility skills without actually training up Agility that high.
For example, the Knight in Shining Armor, the puts ability points into Strength and a little Vigor, takes the feats to both afford and be able to wear plate w/o encumbrance problems, and then ends up with Agility d4, but Ride and Fighting d10 each.
__________________ 28 days... six hours... 42 minutes... 12 seconds. That... is when the world... will end.
For example, the Knight in Shining Armor, the puts ability points into Strength and a little Vigor, takes the feats to both afford and be able to wear plate w/o encumbrance problems, and then ends up with Agility d4, but Ride and Fighting d10 each.
Ride d10 seems excessive (d6 to d8 is usually enough), but it's a perfectly viable concept. It gets iffy when you have 3+ agility skills, but it's otherwise fine.
Strength really should not be underestimated due to its connection with encumbrance, weapon dice, and ranged weapons.
Your weapon die cannot exceed your Strength dice, so if you try to use a greatsword as a Str d4 character, you'll be rocking the d4+d4, same as a dagger
Furthermore, because ranged weapons have Str minimums, a Str d4 guy can't use a bow effectively, as it requires a d6 Strength.
Ride d10 seems excessive (d6 to d8 is usually enough), but it's a perfectly viable concept. It gets iffy when you have 3+ agility skills, but it's otherwise fine.
I was thinking of the rule that a mounted combatant using the *lower* of Fighting and Meelee when using a meelee weapon.
__________________ 28 days... six hours... 42 minutes... 12 seconds. That... is when the world... will end.
You're sort of screwing yourself out of the exploding die that way, aren't you?
Yes and no. The average of a higher die is still higher, even with a lower chance to explode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunimatyu
Thanee, the slight disassociation between skills and abilities is intentional - a high Agility makes it easier to quickly increase fighting, but it's still possible to build a perfectly competant character who uses a few Agility skills without actually training up Agility that high.
Yes, I'm aware that it is intentional, but that doesn't mean, that it is what everyone wants.
I, for example, do not want someone with a low Agility to be as competent a fighter as someone with a high Agility. You still can become a good fighter, just not that good. That requires talent as well as training. Not just one of the two.
Also I want someone with a high Agility to be good at anything, that works off Agility, even without extensive training. This is not covered at all by the basic rules.
Quote:
For those reading the thread who haven't played SW yet, the take-home message is this: SW works great as written, and doesn't require extensive house ruling. Really!
I agree with that, definitely. You do not need house rules for the system to work (and I don't think I said that anywhere, either).
It's just that I like some things better, when they work a little different.
Quote:
By more tightly coupling abilities to skills, you're unnecessarily restricting the available "character space" and substantially messing with some of the Legendary tier Edges that give you the ability to do some of the things.
Yes, it does restrict some "concepts" (but also opens up others, so in the end, there is not restriction of available "character space"; at least not really), and that is fully intentional.
Quote:
When I first saw the system I immediately started thinking of house rules to "fix" things, but after playing the game for the better part of a year, I see that it's a fairly robust design that doesn't really need house rules unless you want something genre-specific (high noon duels for a western, superhero strength to toss people, etc).
...or just a slightly different feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle_Man
For example, the Knight in Shining Armor, the puts ability points into Strength and a little Vigor, takes the feats to both afford and be able to wear plate w/o encumbrance problems, and then ends up with Agility d4, but Ride and Fighting d10 each.
Yep, for example, such a character should not be able to compete (on the same high level; he certainly would be able to compete in total) with a lightly-armored fighter with Agility d8 and Fighting d10. He trades one advantage (better protection) for another (weaker maneuverability, which also affects fighting).
Anyways... to repeat: I'm not saying the system does not work without such changes, but that I like the system better the way it works with such changes.
Bye
Thanee
__________________
In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!
In Memoriam Dave Arneson ( April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax ( March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
For example, a d10 has an average of 5.5 and a 10% chance to explode, which results in another d10 to be added to the total, and another 10% of 10% chance to explode, and so on (an infinite series).
So the actual average is 5.5 + 10% x 5.5 + 1% x 5.5 + 0.1% x 5.5 + ...
As you see, when looking at the intermediate sums (after the '='), the amount added to the total (which represents the added total of continuously rolling 4s, which just becomes highly improbable eventually, and thus only adds a very small amount to the actual average) gets smaller and smaller and eventually becomes so insignificant, that the running total doesn't really get any bigger (practically).
A d6 without exploding already has an average of 3.5, and with exploding it will be above 4, the d4 never reaches that (not even the 3.5 in fact).
The thing that is a bit misleading, the fact that a d4 has a much higher chance to explode (25%) as opposed to a d10 (10%), just to look at a more extreme example, is counteracted by multiplying it with the smaller average (2.5 as opposed to 5.5). The actual amount added isn't that different for any dice type (0.625 for the d4 in the first step as opposed to 0.55 for the d10, for example, so the actual change (since both dice types get the exploding 'bonus') is in the vincinity of ~0.1 between those... even fewer, when you actually look at the difference between d4 and d6, or d6 and d8, etc).
The full 1-point-shift in average (2.5 > 3.5 > 4.5 > 5.5 > 6.5) for going to the next higher dice type is always a much bigger change.
Bye
Thanee
__________________
In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!
In Memoriam Dave Arneson ( April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax ( March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
Last edited by Thanee; 14th July 2009 at 05:07 PM..
Thanee's right with the math - higher dice are better, even if Acing goes down a little bit.
I'm still not on board with those House Rules - I don't want Agility to directly help Fighting, for example, but that's why they're house rules and not core rules.
I particularly like the Tricks and Tests of Will (Taunt, Intimidate) in the system - it's very refreshing to have stunts and psychology mechanically integrated into combat, instead of as a minor add-on.
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