Arcana Evolved [Kulan] Combining AU/AE with D&D v.3.5: I'd like some suggestions

[Knightfall]

Forked from: Arcana Unearthed versus Arcana Evolved?

Originally Posted by Obryn

Some of them would fit right in, but some are clearly beefier.

Warmains are basically Fighters+, and might out-compete them in your game. Then again, I think they are less powerful than Warblades from Bo9S, so if your fighters need a boost, go with these guys.

Magisters, see my post above. I've heard of one in a regular 3.5 game, but I don't know if it was powergamed to any degree. I have my doubts, obviously, but it might work. Still, this is the most problematic class for me.

Akashics are generally Rogues+ but don't get as hefty a sneak attack. I think they could work alongside regular 3.5 classes, but I'd keep an eye on them.

Greenbonds are Clerics/Druids+. They don't have the animal companion or the shapeshifting, but they have lots of spells, easily expanded spell lists, and a lot of crazy healing abilities. I think one could play well with others, actually, but I'd keep an eye on their feats & templates.

Unfettered, Mageblades, Witches, Runethanes, Totem Warriors, Totem Speakers, Champions, and Ritual Warriors are probably usable as-is without much modification at all. You might run into a problem where your Unfettereds' ACs get pretty high, but I never found that to be the case in my own games.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

After checking out the AU/AE classes, you might even decide you like them better than the regular 3.5 classes. They cover all the adventuring bases, just in a different way than 3.5's classes do.

My suggestions:
I'd advise keeping the AU/AE spell lists for AU/AE characters, but maybe limit access to templates (say, X times per day in addition to their components). Also, as a practical matter, you can solve several problems with AU/AE spellcasting by limiting the casters to one use of each specific spell per combat. It's clearly gamist, but you'll have to do something!

-O

Now that I've bought a copy of Arcana Unearthed, I'd like to get some input on how best to incorporate the AU races, classes, feats, skills, etc. into my homebrewed D&D v.3.5 campaign setting, World of Kulan.

I'll be sticking with the v.3.5 magic system, at this point. Therefore, the AU magic-based classes will either get changed to work with v.3.5 or will be omitted. (However, I might consider Obryn's suggestion, as noted above, at a later date.)

So, I'm looking for suggestions from anyone with AU/AE experience. I'm looking for suggestions regarding alignment, favored class for the AU races, and anything else that might come up.

I've already printed a article from The Diamond Throne fansite called "Blending Arcana Evolved and D&D : Bumps in the Road," which has some good starting guidelines, but I want to go into a lot more detail. ( Anyone who knows me, knows I'm all about the details. ) I'll be using that article to reverse engineer AU to work with D&D v.3.5.

For example...

1. Defensive Move becomes Dodge.

2. Cleave/Great Cleave as per v.3.5.

3. Trapfinding as per v.3.5.

4. Uncanny Dodge instead of the Intuitive Sense feat.

5. Exotic weapon proficiencies as per v.3.5. Any new "exotic" weapons in AU are exotic weapons.

6. Craft (Alchemy) instead of Alchemy.

7. Hide/Move Silently instead of Sneak.

8. No Innuendo; use v.3.5 rules instead.

9. Knowledge and Profession skills are as per v.3.5; however, I have custom skills for my campaign.

10. Magic item creation as per v.3.5; however, I'm developing my own "expanded" system. (It's not even close to being done yet.)

11. v.3.5 equipment rules including armor.

12. Sneak attack as per v.3.5.

[Knightfall]

Initial impressions after reading the Races chapter.

Alignment Tendancies

• Faen, Loresong or Quickling -> Often neutral (good tendancies)
• Faen, Spryte -> Usually chaotic neutral
• Giant, Hu-Charad -> Often lawful good (neutral tendancies)
• Litorians -> Often neutral
• Mojh -> Usually neutral
• Runechildren -> Varies by initial race
• Sibeccai -> Usually lawful neutral
• Verrik -> Often neutral

Favored Class (D&D v.3.5 classes)

• Faen, Loresong -> Bard
• Faen, Quickling -> Rogue
• Faen, Spryte -> Sorcerer
• Giant, Hu-Charad -> Monk
• Litorians -> Ranger
• Mojh -> Wizard
• Runechildren -> Any arcane-based class (or Arcane Warrior [The Year's Best D20])
• Sibeccai -> Rogue
• Verrik -> Enchanter or Psion [XPH]

[Knight-of-Roses]

I have had an Akashic and an Unfettered (in different groups) and they played fairly well alongside standard 3.x classes. Against yet another group, I used Warmains as opposition and they were tough but not overwhelming.

Have not had anyone try any of the magic using AU classes but it would be an interesting experiment.

[Varianor Abroad]

Interestingly, I always ignored alignment and favored class in D&D.

On classes, I think that a psion is slightly more powerful than, or equal to, a magister, so I'd allow them in if you have psions.

I don't really see templates as a problem in light of the kind of damage a D&D PC modded with the Complete series can dish out. Plus they have a cost to use.

I think the biggest issue would be energy vs. elemental damage. If you disallow elemental and make it all energy, that's probably easier.

[Robert Ranting]

I guess my first question is what other classes from 3.5 are you planning to use? The Warmain, Magister, and Greenbond more or less cover all the same bases as the D&D Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric/Druid. You can chalk up some of this to regional / cultural differences, but ultimately, they are the same archetypes with a different mechanical treatment. Likewise, some of the 3.5 splats introduced classes that fill in the same niches as the AE classes. For example, Unfettered vs. Swashbuckler and Mage blade vs. Duskblade.

Robert "Also, I agree with Varianor's advice" Ranting

[satori01]

I ran an AE/3.5 Hybrid game for 5+ years from 1st-23rd level.
All classes were allowed and my general rule of thumb for scrolls and wands and the like was if there was a spell that had similar effect....in AE and 3.5 then both casters of each magic type could use it. Thus as a DM I did not have to supply wands of Identify and wands of Analyze.

I allowed every class to get access to the bonus true name ceremony feat.

I allowed multi classing between the 2 systems, and it worked fine (Fighter/Champion, Unfettered/Paladin/Knight of the Pale, Archer Totem Warrior/Order of the Bow).

I used a modified version of 3.5 skills, (much closer to 4e skill set) with Stealth, Perception, Arcana etc....simply made it if one feeder skill was on the list then the class got the combined skill. People were more effective skill wise, but that was what I was going for.

I eliminated Favored Class and allowed open Multi-classing.

As for class balance....the classes as a whole hold up pretty well.
A Magister, certainly pre Spell Treasury was a little more subtle than a standard Wizard lacking Magic Missle or Scorching Burst.....but with some planing could be the best buffer/healer in the game.

Dragon Mage can give some tremendous boosts to AC, and at higher levels Magisters can heal.

At points I had a Magister, Wizard, Druid, Warlock and Warmage, and honestly each class came out with a different flavor, and effectiveness in certain circumstances, but overall were pretty balanced with each other.

[Voadam]

Warmains are tank specialized fighters with less flexibility in choices. They out tank a fighter going for the same build but if you want an archer or to multiclass some warrior concept into another build you want fighter.

I've played a champion, giant racial classes, and a warmain as a PC in D&D games and it went fine. I've used unfettered as an NPC, I like them best of all the various 3e swashbuckler type options. Giants you have to consider whether you want size large at level 3.

I wouldn't worry about 3.5 vs AU magic systems. They are class specific systems so it is like allowing psionics, warlocks, binders, etc in the same game.

Akashics are basically skill monkey rogues without all the sneak attack and with more bardic knowledge, no imbalance except I feel they are weak.

Going with 3.5 skill set is easy to convert.

You have to decide whether you are giving the bonus level 1 feat, I'd guess not as you are sticking more on 3.5.

Having multiple overlapping classes for similar archetypes is fine, monk and oathsworn = 2 separate martial arts traditions; unfettered and swashbucklers = different sword schools; champions and paladins could be god specific, warlocks, wizards, magisters, psions = different magical schools; clerics, greenbond, druids, favored souls = four different paths to divine magic, etc.

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by Robert Ranting

I guess my first question is what other classes from 3.5 are you planning to use? The Warmain, Magister, and Greenbond more or less cover all the same bases as the D&D Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric/Druid. You can chalk up some of this to regional / cultural differences, but ultimately, they are the same archetypes with a different mechanical treatment. Likewise, some of the 3.5 splats introduced classes that fill in the same niches as the AE classes. For example, Unfettered vs. Swashbuckler and Mage blade vs. Duskblade.

Robert "Also, I agree with Varianor's advice" Ranting

Well, I use all the PHB v.3.5 core classes and several of the base classes from the Complete book series as standard classes for the game world. (Any class marked with an asterisk (*) is considered restricted, however.)

Here's the list of Standard Classes for the World of Kulan (not including NPC classes)...

• Anarch (DRAGON #310)
• Anti-Paladin DRAGON #312) *
• Archivist (Heroes of Horror)
• Avenger (DRAGON #310)
• Bandit (Book of Roguish Luck)
• Barbarian (PHB v.3.5)
• Bard (PHB v.3.5)
• Beguiler (PHB II)
• Cleric (PHB v.3.5)
• Corrupter (DRAGON #312) *
• Corsair (d20 Freeport Companion)
• Despot (DRAGON #312) *
• Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) *
• Druid (PHB v.3.5)
• Elementalist (Kulan base class)
• Enforcer (DRAGON #310)
• Fighter (PHB v.3.5)
• Incarnate (DRAGON #310) *
• Jester (DRAGON Compendium)
• Lurk (Complete Psionic) *
• Monk (PHB v.3.5)
• Noble (d20 Freeport Companion)
• Paladin (PHB v.3.5)
• Psion (XPH) *
• Psychic Warrior (XPH)
• Ranger (PHB v.3.5)
• Rogue (PHB v.3.5)
• Savant (DRAGON Compendium)
• Scout (Complete Adventurer)
• Sentinel (DRAGON #310)
• Sorcerer (PHB v.3.5)
• Spellthief (Complete Adventurer)
• Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
• Trader (Kulan base class)
• Urban Druid (DRAGON Compendium)
• Warmage (Complete Arcane)
• Wizard (PHB v.3.5)

[Dannyalcatraz]

On magic...

I really liked the list of alternative material components and their effects, and that mechanic is transparent enough to be dropped right into almost any D20 derived game- 3.X included.

A bit more problematic would be the higher/lesser versions of spells, but I think that this is worth the trouble.

The caster feats from AU/AE are also quite good, and I don't think they're a risk to just add in.

A side note on feats- Hands as Weapons is a very good feat that makes explicit what was implied in 3.X, and only explicitly RAW for the Kensai class- that a Monk can have his unarmed strikes enchanted as per a manufactured weapon. If your players like monks, this is a must-have feat for your campaign.

[Knightfall]

And here is my list of secondary classes that are restricted by region. Note that while I haven't listed which classes are restricted to which regions (i.e. continents, island chains, etc.), I do know which classes go with each specific region, for the most part.

For example, most of the psionic classes are restricted to the continent known as Janardûn, which has a strong psionic tradition. (Think like Dark Sun but in a more benign environment.)

• Alchemist (Player's Guide to the Wilderlands)
• Amazon Warrior (Player's Guide to the Wilderlands)
• Ardent (Complete Psionic) *
• Assassin (d20 Freeport Companion) *
• Bardic Sage [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana)
• Battle Dancer (DRAGON Compendium)
• Bisaakir Zaari (Dry Land: Empires of the Dragon Sands)
• Beggar (City State of the Invincible Overlord)
• Cossack (Frost and Fur)
• Crusader (DRAGON #311)
• Cultist, the (d20 Freeport Companion) *
• Death Master (DRAGON Compendium)
• Deformimancer [Variant Sorcerer] (Fantasy Player’s Companion: Core Class Variants) *
• Divine Mind (Complete Psionic) *
• Dragon Shaman (PHB II) *
• Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic)
• Erudite (Complete Psionic) *
• Favored Soul (Complete Divine)
• Godi (Frost and Fur)
• Gutter Mage (Book of Roguish Luck)
• Healer (Miniatures Handbook)
• Hexblade (Complete Warrior)
• Khemitian Ranger [Variant] (Gary Gygax’s Necropolis)
• Koldun (Frost and Fur) *
• Marshal (Miniatures Handbook)
• Monster Hunter (d20 Freeport Companion)
• Mountebank (DRAGON Compendium)
• Ninja (Complete Adventurer)
• Planar Ranger [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana)
• Royal Guard [Variant Fighter] (Fantasy Player’s Companion: Core Class Variants)
• Sage (Player's Guide to the Wilderlands)
• Samurai (Complete Warrior)
• Savage Bard [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana)
• Shadowsworn (Book of Roguish Luck)
• Sha’ir (DRAGON Compendium)
• Shaman, Dry Lands (Dry Land: Empires of the Dragon Sands)
• Shugenja (Complete Divine)
• Soulknife (XPH)
• Survivor (d20 Freeport Companion)
• Temple Defender [Variant Cleric] (Fantasy Player’s Companion: Core Class Variants)
• Totem Barbarian [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana) *
• Urban Ranger [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana)
• Vitki (Frost and Fur)
• Voelva (Frost and Fur)
• Volkhov (Frost and Fur)
• Warlock (Complete Arcane) *
• Wilder (XPH)
• Wilderness Rogue [Variant] (Unearthed Arcana) *
• Winter Warden (DRAGON #311)
• Witch (Player's Guide to the Wilderlands) *
• Wu Jen (Complete Arcane)
• Yogi (The Year’s Best D20)

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by Voadam

You have to decide whether you are giving the bonus level 1 feat, I'd guess not as you are sticking more on 3.5.

That's already an unofficial house rule for Kulan. For any long campaign, the PCs will get a bonus feat (or a signature magic item). Also, I should mention that a use the following house rule for generating ability scores: Roll 4d6 (and drop the lowest die) 10 times; pick the best six; arrange to taste.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Since you're using the Soulknife, might I suggest you check out Dragon#341 for the set of feats for that class. They are (generally) better written than their analogous ones that came out in CompPsi.

Also, you might find some value in Hyperconscious (esp. for Monks, PsyWars and Soulknives), and if you look in the Monk database in my sig, you'll find some really good stuff for Monks, Oathsworn and even Soulknives (namely, the Atavist Monk/Soulknife PrCl from RoE p133).

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

Also, you might find some value in Hyperconscious (esp. for Monks, PsyWars and Soulknives), and if you look in the Monk database in my sig, you'll find some really good stuff for Monks, Oathsworn and even Soulknives (namely, the Atavist Monk/Soulknife PrCl from RoE p133).

I do have Hyperconscious.

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by satori01

I eliminated Favored Class and allowed open Multi-classing.

I allow open multiclassing, limited only by alignment. I've changed the alignment requirements for some of the classes I use.

Dragon Shaman -> LN, NE, N, NG, CN
Dragonfire Adept -> LN, NE, N, NG, CN
Ranger -> LN, NE, N, NG, CN
Rogue -> Cannot be Lawful Good

[Robert Ranting]

Wow, that's a lot of classes! Nevermind my previous comment, clearly there is plenty of room for a few more variants on a theme in this world. If you have a continent or region to spare, just plug in the AE races and classes there and run with it. They will sink or swim on their own merits amid such a vast and varied collection of options.


Robert "The More The Merrier I Guess?" Ranting

[Knightfall]

Originally Posted by Robert Ranting

Wow, that's a lot of classes! Nevermind my previous comment, clearly there is plenty of room for a few more variants on a theme in this world. If you have a continent or region to spare, just plug in the AE races and classes there and run with it. They will sink or swim on their own merits amid such a vast and varied collection of options.


Robert "The More The Merrier I Guess?" Ranting

I'm likely going to spread the AU races and classes out amongst the various regions.

The litorians are likely to end up on the continent I call Triadora, which is dominated by non-human races (i.e. minotaurs, lizardfolk, wemics, etc.). I also have place in mind for the Hu-Charad, but I'm not 100% sure about that decision yet. The faen races will most likely become extraplanar in origin.

I think the AU classes are most likely going to end up being regional classes. However, where I place the AU races might dictate where I place the AU classes. I haven't decided yet.

[Baron Opal]

I ran an AE game that allowed the rogue as well.

Class-wise:

Witches are great as a concept but didn't really come together for us. Their witchery powers didn't come often enough and were not usable enough for it to compete with the other magical classes. We decided that witchery powers had to come every 3 levels instead of 5, and that there needed to be 10 witchery manifestations for each theme. We felt warlocks did the power theme better.

Our greenbond became really irritated that the magister and runethane could cast every healing spell she could. Given that we had a table of 6-8 characters rather than 3-4, her bonus 3 heals were not very special.

Runethanes rock. Do not give them time to plan. They will destroy the party, NPCs, what ever balanced threat they come across. What I liked best about the runethanes is that they could hold their own if they got jumped but the player was well rewarded for execising forethought.

Magisters are just cool. They are very flexible with their magic in the AE ruleset. Where as runethanes reward forethought, magisters reward clever improvisation.

Mageblades are simply the best expression of a fighter/magic-user in a single class in 3.X. Period. You don't fight as well as the warmain or cast spells as well as the magister but you never feel second-best.

Oathsworn are monks that work in a non-Oriental game.

Warmain and unfettered work well too. The fighter was split in half, and rather than trying to be a class that could encompass any fighting style the warmain does tanks well and the unfettered does swashbucklers well.

The akashic is just a cool concept and is tailor-made to give the DM an outlet for adventure hooks and obscure information that the party would otherwise never get. It does suck, however, when you tell the party that they have 3 months of downtime and the akashic player hits you with 360 questions about the BBEG.

The main criticism I heard of the class list is that there were no "gutter-rats", no real rogues in the game.

Must dash.