General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
I know this will verge on a "Sell Me on . . ." type thread . . .
I'm very interested in the ideas behind a fantasy M&M game. I've never played it, nor have I owned it. I just wasn't terribly interested in a supers genre game. Though the innovations I read about to the D20 engine were inspiring.
Finding out that a fantasy expansion to the M&M game came out piqued my interest all over again.
For those who have played M&M, how easy would it be to teach a group of kids ranging in ages from 9 to 11, with the ultimate goal of playing W&W? Math savvy kids who have no experience with RPGs beyond a few video game RPGs and a few session with the 3rd Ed. D&D Basic set.
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Do you have the patience to teach 4e or WHFRP2 to a longtime gamer?
Are you in a group playing D20 or 3e and need an extra?
Does your group play a campaign using BECMI/Rules Compendium and could use another player?
Not sure exactly, as the only time I've played RPGs with anyone so young, is when I was that age myself. I've no kids atm, and my only relative (within the same continent, let alone country, or indeed, state) who's around that age at the moment just wouldn't be interested (I know she's really, really into Twilight , but that's about the 'closest' thing. . .) But anyway, I can only guess at how this might work out.
The game is pretty 'front loaded', so if some amount of addition, subtraction, and multiplication is OK in chargen, actual play should be a breeze. Compared to many other RPGs, quite notably so, in fact. It only uses one type of die (d20), and it's 'roll high', which many tend to find simpler and more intuitive. And yeah, it's mostly all worked out before play, so that helps.
I guess too, that it depends on how heavily invested these kids might be in building a character, because wow, you can certainly go crazy with builds in M&M, and that could chew up a lot of time, and possibly lead to frustration for others, if it's only some getting so caught up in that.
Hm. Not spending enough time around kids these days to be overly helpful, I think. Well, maybe someone else can provide a bit more insight here. I know there are a number of gaming mums and dads at this site, some of whom happen to run sessions for their kids (or vice versa in some cases, IIRC). They might have some good advice.
I've taught plenty of kids in that age range to play M&M, no problem. Teaching them character design is a bit more involved: you may want to go with archetypes or pre-gens, at least initially, with lots of GM input on PC design later on, but the actual process of game play they pick up very quickly, in my experience.
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If your ultimate goal is to play the fantasy genre, then it's actually a bit easier than teaching the base rules. If they aren't playing a caster, or something else with wacky powers, then they don't need to know about the power rules, or how to use them, freeing up their learning for how to role play (and learning the simple bonuses and penalties that their actions acquire).
As a system, M&M is at least as easy to learn as 3E D&D, and on-par or easier than most computer RPGs. Role Playing, on the other hand, can take many, many years to learn given how variable, group-oriented, and cooperative (in invovlement if not in actions) it is.
Good luck.
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Teaching them character design is a bit more involved: you may want to go with archetypes or pre-gens, at least initially, with lots of GM input on PC design later on, but the actual process of game play they pick up very quickly, in my experience.
This is pretty much along the lines of what I was going to say. Character creation for M&M is a bit challenging, but by using archetypes or pregenerated characters, teaching the game basics should be pretty easy for folks of any math-doing age.
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Thank you all for chiming in with your experiences. I think I've nearly made up my mind.
Though if there are any of you who would like to share their opinions, I'd still love to hear it!
Well, when the guy that wrote the book (literally - Steve Kenson is the author) chimes in, it's a little intimidating to throw in your own ideas. It feels downright presumptuous. (Good to see you again, Mr. Kenson, and I hope you chime in more often. I almost always find it instructive.) So I doubt you'll get a lot more responses, especially from those who basically agree with what's already been said. Those that disagree, may or may not chime in.
(Personally, I always like a good criticism; they're very instructive. You might get lucky and get one or two of them.)
Good luck, and I hope that your decision turns out well.
Last edited by ValhallaGH; 21st July 2009 at 02:53 AM..
Well, when the guy that wrote the book (literally - Steve Kenson is the author) chimes in, it's a little intimidating to throw in your own ideas. It feels downright presumptuous.
I noticed that as well, in fact I had one of those " . . . but I'm not worthy" moments.
__________________
Do you have the patience to teach 4e or WHFRP2 to a longtime gamer?
Are you in a group playing D20 or 3e and need an extra?
Does your group play a campaign using BECMI/Rules Compendium and could use another player?
I find it works best when you say "okay, just tell me what you want to do with these cool powers, and we'll make it work. Remember that you can use the environment around you, too, so be sure to throw a car at something. Throwing cars is fun." Then you do all the math at first, explaining as you go.
And that's an important point: don't start with long and intricate rules explanations. Start with action, and everything else can be shown as you go.
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I've been playing various versions of D&D with my sons, now ages 7, 9 and 11, for a few years now, and they get it just fine. I've transitioned to a simpler system (Castles & Crusades) so that I have to answer fewer games mechanics questions during the game, but they have managed the basics of 3.x and 4e D&D.
M&M character creation can be intimidating. It took me some time to grasp, and I used to play Champions. I think once you get past character creation you just encourage the kids to tell you what they want to do, and let the GM interpret the rules.
For another opinion, from Gygax, see my .sig
__________________ "I urge you to make up a simplified version of the D&D game for play with as many of [your children] as are now willing and able to play. The thrill of the adventure and rolling of the dice is likely to make them devoted gamers ever after."
- Col_Pladoh's advice to me, and my advice to you.
and went on to include Regdar, Naull, Kerwyn, etc. as well as racial 'containers' for standard D&D races (dwarf, elf, gnome, halfling) and some non-standard races (changeling, shifter, warforged).
Using pregens would likely be fun for an introductory game, and mix it up by allowing different kids to play different characters in different rounds (round two, everybody get up and move one seat to the left!), so that everybody gets to see what a fighter, wizard, priest or rogue type build can do, and figure out which one they enjoy most.
Once any particular kid (or totally new adult player) is 'sold' on a particular character type, they can then be encouraged to suggest tweaks to the character, such as weapon type or preferred spell types or whatever, and you can show them how to change things around. Eventually, they can progress to building characters from the ground up, but it's easier to get them started by tweaking pregens to suit their preferences.
However, this is all done for superheroes, not W&W-style fantasy. The Martial Artist archetype might be close to a character you'd see in W&W, though, and should be a pretty instructive character example.
, but that's about the 'closest' thing. . .) But anyway, I can only guess at how this might work out.
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