General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
What with ENWorld choking and my own schedule, I haven't had time to check in to see what folks were saying about the latest SW Saga product.
I got it as soon as it came out. I have to say, compared to some of the other volumes, I found it disappointing. It may be that I just have little interest right now in the Rebellion Era, but it seems that there was not as much in this volume to spark my imagination.
But one big problem I have with the book is the lack of star ship deck plans, which are always one of my favorite parts. I may have overlooked something, but there didn't seem to be a single deck plan in the entire book, which is too bad.
What do others think?
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
Not even a nibble? This book must be less popular than I had realized. I wonder if folks think the quality is slipping. It doesn't seem up to the standard of previous products.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
Yeah, there is still plenty to love in the book, and even if you aren't a big fan of the Rebellion era. Just off the top of my head you have the racial feats, which give all of the core (i.e. from the SWSE RPG book) races some new love, and some new talents that made me pay attention to what a scout could do.
Given that I tend to like to have fights take place in an area large enough to place features and allow characters to move, most ship deckplans are kind of pointless to me from a RP perspective, although I can see that others might like to know how ships are set up more specifically, and I can picture situations where it might be fairly important.
That said, I kind of feel sorry for this book following on the heels of the Jedi Academy Training Manual, because Force users just look more "sexy" in the context of game content, whether it works out that way or not.
I have it but haven't had a chance to even page throyugh it. I'll be taking a thorough look at it after Gen Con but hearing disappointment from others doesn't bode well.
Nah, I don't think it's bad. It just lacks anything really usefull anymore. The racial feats were a nice bit, but WotC is running out of usefull content. I think this one is still worth getting but it's soon coming to a dead end...
I generally appreciate the new mechanics and methods of creating character options. But I agree that there may not be much new ground to cover. I wonder what books there still are that can be productively added to the line.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
It didn't, like, actually suck coolness out of the other books I have, but yes, it's that bad. It pretty much confirmed a sense I was having that the line was going downhill, with undisciplined mechanical design, a lack of game world information, and general quality control. When I mean undisciplined design, I mean, like for instance:
- Classes don't mean anything any more. With all the trees, it's hard to say what class is best anymore for certain concepts. Spies used to be scoundrels or nobles, but now they're Scouts.
- The Rebellion guide replaces the awkward destiny system with a friendly and agreeable background that raises further questions about why there are classes at all.
When I mean a lack of game world information, I mean:
- Lack of iconic characters at various stages of their careers or incorporating new character options.
- Questionable inclusion of EU content, such as IG-88's backstory from the dubiously canon and much retconned Tales of the Bounty Hunters
And when I mean quality control I mean:
- There's a feat called Imperial Military Training or somesuch. It removes a mental condition. I don't think that really reflects what we see of the Imperial war machine in Star Wars, who are determined but really lacking in mental flexibility. On the other hand, the prerequisites are mild, so it seems like it would be an attractive grab for all sorts of characters who might want to shrug off an effect or two. You end up with smugglers, Jedi, even Rebels with Imperial Military Training. End result: when applied to Imperials, it produces unwanted results, while the feat finds use with characters for whom it was not intended.
- Stat block problems.
In the end, I realized I was just much happier using the Essential Guides and another game system. Using just the core book, Starships, and maybe Force Unleashed is not bad, but the stingy and random inclusion of aliens and the above mentioned issues have really turned me off.
While I liked the background system, the racial feats were more or less a mess, and the weapons were especially embarressing and un-neccesary. They were all just normal, already made weapons, with a +1 at the end.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
On the subject of adventures, they have given us a complete adventure path for free, which is very nice, and I still have "Tempest Feud" that I hope to run one day. But yes, adventures would be nice at this stage.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
That'd be good. But WotC seems to have a fit at the idea of producing adventures.
"They don't sell!!! Don't SELL I'LL TELL YA!!11"
I thought they did reasonably well with that "delve format" stuff. Did that not actually sell?
IMHO some "delve format" encounters for SW Saga would be useful: show off ship combat, planet-side piloting, and interesting terrain in urban areas, space ships, tree cities, etc.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
This news makes me sad. Rebellion Era is my favorite Star Wars Era, so I would definitely enjoy running a game in that setting. I would've hoped for a useful source book full of information and mechanics, but it sounds like this one's a miss.
Ship floor plans are useful in case the PCs do something you don't expect, like steal the freighter in the docking bay and blast off. Then you can grab a random freighter floor plan without having to think one up on the spot. Or if they wind up breaking out of the Star Destroyer's brig, exploiting something you didn't think of, and you need a Star Destroyer floor plan... It's just handy to have around just in case.
__________________ 4th Ed Chars Fallen:
Spoiler:
Gavin Ward - Male Human Warlord 1 - The party started a bar fight. The fellow who escaped brought his bandit buddies back and they killed Gavin (and nearly three other party members). He bled out while lying on the floor.
4th Ed Kills:
Spoiler:
Cornell Butterworth - Male Human Wizard 1 - Knocked unconscious by a kobold dragonshield the fighter ignored, then done in by the kobold wyrmpriest's acid breath.
Lithia - Female Elven Ranger 11 - Contracted mummy rot, which eventually did her in.
Brendan Stetlan - Male Human Fighter 4 - Knocked unconscious in combat, then thrown to the wolves.
Vindicator Mindartis Valenae - Eladrin Paladin 5 - Dropped by a githzerai monk (L6 elite), and killed when the rogue threw him off the balcony to try and get his body to safety.
Vongar - Male Dwarf Paladin 1 - Fell in battle after defeating Irontooth, but not his bodyguard.
Straef - Male Elf Ranger 1 - Fell in battle to Irontooth's Wyrmpriest.
Rodney and company were able to include a fair amount of stuff from the X-Wing/TIE Fighter era of games, which is neat. I rather liked the Racial Feats, as they play to certain "iconic" aspects of those races, and gives PCs a decent reason to keep playing some of them in the wake of some of the newer species that have come down the pike so far, or what other ones may yet come.
The initial issue that I had with the Background system is that as presented, it really didn't do too much, and at face value is a weaksauce replacement for the Destiny system. But then, it's supposed to be a weaker than Destiny Points, which isn't too difficult as DPs are very powerful. But it can be used quite nicely to flesh out a character. And considering one of the bigger complaints is how "strait-jacketed" some characters are based on their initial class level, the Background system is a neat way to sidestep that issue.
As for "lack of material," let's be honest with ourselves here. The vast majority of the crunch stuff has been covered in the Core Book, including the OT iconics, same with the majority of the equipment used in the Rebellion Era. So instead of treading over things that have been done to death and back, Rodney obviously made a decision to try and focus more on running a campaign in that era. Anyone that bought this looking purely for player-centric material is going to be a bit disappointed because every book in the line save one (Threats of the Galaxy) was written to be useful to both Players and GMs. Unlike D&D, SWSE can't really afford to have materials that focus exclusively on one or the other (hence why no published modules beyond the free Dawn of Defiance).
Pawsplay,
I'm sorry you decided to bail on the line. But "lack of support" for anything not D&D really isn't anything new; just ask the D20 Modern players. And even if WotC were to shut down the SW RPG line tomorrow, I'm still gonna keep playing it. Yeah, new material is nice, but I was able to keep playing RCR when it was on "indefinite hiatus." And as it stands, I've got more than enough books to draw from to allow my players to create just about anything and to create and run some awesome adventures in the GFFA.
If they called it The X-Wing and Dark Horse Comics Campaign Guide, I might have rated it more charitably, and at least I would know it wasn't geared toward me. But there really is no excuse for naming a book the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide and having precious little info about the Rebellion Era. The description of campaign types was somewhat helpful. There is hardly anything from the films, really. I'm glad some people are able to enjoy it. For me, it was just a road marker on the highway to unsatisfying gaming.
I think overall it's a good book, but I do share a complaint with you Pawsplay, in that there is too much obscurity in this book. Rodney scours every single video game and comic book released for game stats, to these books' detriments. There is little "iconic" in this book - most of the stats seem to be from mega-obscure appearances in one Star Wars video game or somesuch.
It is also the weakest Campaign Guide released so far. 64 pages shorter, no species, no deck plans, terrible layout. It is also the first book released for Saga that I would generally say has suffered from "power creep." EDIT: Also no Galactic Gazetteer in this one either.
But overall, there is a ton of good stuff in the book as well. While there is precious little info on the era itself (a problem with every single campaign guide released IMO) there is a ton of good organizational stuff, for both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire, I personally like the Background system, and the Fringe chapter contained a lot of good stuff I've been waiting for.
Regarding IG-88's backstory - I wasn't aware of any canon mistakes in his story, but I have to say that the backstory as presented in the RECG is pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. No wonder it was retconned.
Last edited by Paul_Klein; 18th August 2009 at 09:56 AM..
1. I really like the Backgrounds. This reminds me a lot of the Occupations from D20 Modern, and provides an option to use instead of Destinies, which I thought were overly powerful and have not used in my games.
2. For the talents and feats, I'm not really sure. I'm the only person in my group who has the book, so I haven't seen them in use yet in play.
3. In the same way, I haven't seen the Pathfinder prestige class in play, so I can't say much about it.
4. The equipment section brings back some of the weapons from the old D6 RPG, and I like that.
5. The ships and vehicles might be a little obscure, but it's nice to have different options to use.
6. I liked to see information on Rebel Alliance SpecForces; a buddy of mine ran a highly enjoyable SpecForce campaign in college, and it was good to see this element brought back into the game.
7. The characters for the Alliance were a nice addition, too, some familiar faces from Rebellion-Era novels and comics and old D6 supplements.
8. The same can be said for characters, vehicles and ships from the Empire.
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