General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
[Fantasy Concepts] What would you want to see in a Fantasy Concepts Revised?
Good Afternoon, All:
Many folks seem to be enjoying Fantasy Concepts, which still sees a handful of sales each month even though it's almost two years old. As a streamlined and updated D20-based open gaming system, Fantasy Concepts has captured the interest of a lot of gamers both here and on other boards. I even got to speak a bit with one of the system's fans this last week at Gen Con 2009. Of course, he asked me the question that I'm sure many have asked before: what are your plans for the Fantasy Concepts system?
With that in mind, I would like to ask if there's any interest in seeing either a Fantasy Concepts Revised book, that revises, updates and expands the original system with all new content, or perhaps just a Fantasy Concepts II supplement with support material on various Options? (i.e. only the new stuff, instead of a new book that integrates both the new and the old stuff.) If so, what would you like to see in it?
I have my own ideas on this, but before I invest my time in doing the work, I figure I should see if there's any interest, and if so, it would help to find out what the fans would actually like to see.
Disclaimer: Although I've got the original Fantasy Concepts, I never actually played it, and am unlikely to buy a revised version, because 4e works fine for me. Having said that...
I'd suggest a revised book is probably a better idea than a supplement. And the three obvious mechanical changes I'd suggest are 4e imports -- standardizing BAB across all classes, going to fixed hit points at all levels, and seperating out AC from reflex defense (the unification works in Star Wars because few wear armor, and people usually fight with blasters or lightsabers).
Disclaimer: Although I've got the original Fantasy Concepts, I never actually played it, and am unlikely to buy a revised version, because 4e works fine for me. Having said that...
I'd suggest a revised book is probably a better idea than a supplement. And the three obvious mechanical changes I'd suggest are 4e imports -- standardizing BAB across all classes, going to fixed hit points at all levels, and seperating out AC from reflex defense (the unification works in Star Wars because few wear armor, and people usually fight with blasters or lightsabers).
Can someone post a link to reviews of the original Fantasy Concepts? My Google-fu is shot at the moment
I haven't been able to run this yet either, but I plan on using it when it's my turn to run a game.
Hmmm. What would I like to see...
Fantasy Concepts is really focused on Sword & Sorcery. That's not bad, but if you're doing a Revised/Supplement, I'd like to suggest offering up/showing how to kick it into "high"-the opposite of S&S if you will. Part of this is a matter of the art that's been used...it can be a bit of a struggle to see beyond the faux-medieval thing.
Go for "Fantasy Concepts: High Octane". Tattoos that grant spell-like abilities, lycanthropes that master and control their forms for unarmed combat and don't suck, golems that take magic items which would ordinarily be sold and plug them in to use as a power source for their arcane guns and to modify effects of the arcane gun (short sword or equivalent +1 item gets slotted in and becomes a 1d6 gun that functions like Arcane Blast from the Warlock, items of x GP value increase the damage, certain other items can do things like change the damage type, add knockback, root an opponent, and so forth)...
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Originally Posted by joela
Can someone post a link to reviews of the original Fantasy Concepts? My Google-fu is shot at the moment
I'm not aware of any reviews posted. I'd post one myself, but I like to actually be able to run/play something before I do that sort of thing.
Fantasy Concepts is really focused on Sword & Sorcery. That's not bad, but if you're doing a Revised/Supplement, I'd like to suggest offering up/showing how to kick it into "high"-the opposite of S&S if you will. Part of this is a matter of the art that's been used...it can be a bit of a struggle to see beyond the faux-medieval thing.
Most of that is due to the fact that I operate on a very restricted budget, and Public Domain art makes the cut because it is free. If you know of any free sources for art I could legally use, please send me a PM.
I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned a detailed spell system of some kind, the integration of abilities from sources such as Experimental Might or Pathfinder that have come out since the original release, a monster section or anything like that.
I'll give some consideration to a higher powered ruleset, which I think would probably entail new races and new talent paths, for the most part. The rest of the system should still work as it stands, perhaps with some minor clarifications, modifications and the like. Hmmm....
Most of that is due to the fact that I operate on a very restricted budget, and Public Domain art makes the cut because it is free. If you know of any free sources for art I could legally use, please send me a PM.
Heh. I totally understand this. It's not free, but there are the artpack options from RPGNow which are usually line drawings and when you buy them you get a specific licence for the use of the art. different companies have different styles. LPJ might have something more along the lines of the higher power stuff.
You might also consider talking to LPJ to find out the name of the artist that does their NeoExodus stuff. Depending on what you want the art might not be "too" expensive. I say this knowing that I'd like to get some nice looking art myself for a couple of projects and not really wanting to have to drop the scratch to get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn
I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned a detailed spell system of some kind, the integration of abilities from sources such as Experimental Might or Pathfinder that have come out since the original release, a monster section or anything like that.
Hmmm. I think part of it is that in a number of ways FC slims down some of the rules and makes it more manageable. Adding in stuff from something like Experimental Might is upping that complexity factor again.
Now, tapping something like the Book of Iron Might... yeah I can see that. Iron Might is kind of a let down in some respects because it sort of dangles the idea of a more mobile character and battlefield stunting, but with the way it's tied into the 3.5 rules and all the skill checks and all that, the reality of it is "not really worth the trouble". The people that are really going to benefit from it are the characters that are already skill monkeys, whereas the combat types that are stuck swinging in one place don't get the skill options to really make it worthwhile. And the save DCs sort seem to be a disincentive as well. At least to me.
Trailblazer might have some bits to pull and work back into FC depending on what you see as the goal.
As for incorporating stuff like the Pathfinder abilities... To be honest, I think the overlap you've got between folks that are a fan of FC and folks that are a fan of Pathfinder is fairly small.
FC came out and reworked a lot of the SW Saga ideas back into a fantasy framework. Sort of the first of the "3.75" bits if you will. Pathfinder on the other hand really isn't interested in solving a lot of the stuff that prompted the creation of SW Saga rules and thereby the FC rules.
At least as I see it.
So, I'm totally down with seeing how to incorporate abilities into the FC framework. A sort of "conversion guidelines" perhaps... totally cool. And even taking something like one or more of the Pathfinder classes and FCing them? That's cool too. But it's more about seeing what it started as and what it finsishes as that's the cool thing.
At that point, if there is something in Pathfinder that someone wants to bring over to FC, they'll probably have enough information to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn
I'll give some consideration to a higher powered ruleset, which I think would probably entail new races and new talent paths, for the most part. The rest of the system should still work as it stands, perhaps with some minor clarifications, modifications and the like. Hmmm....
Thanks For The Input,
Flynn
Hey, no problem.
Also, it's not _exactly_ just a "high powered" ruleset I'm looking at/for. It's about having the tools to be able to grab something and pop it in with minimal concerns.
So, we've got FC right? We've got a solid base for overall rules, which may or may not need to be tweaked slightly. SW Saga having been around as long as it has, finding the houserules that folks use and why they use them might be an idea.
Anyway, in the form of FC as we've got it now, we can turn around and handle a bunch of the stuff that's out there. 3 jillion different versions of classes that at the end of the day tend to be variants on the core classes.
But there's odd stuff out there too and it's being able to grab that odd stuff and tap into that I'd be keen on.
So for example, WotC did the Warlock. To my knowledge, there's no OGC class out there that's really like the Warlock. So being able to use it as an example might be hard. Ah, but then there's the Binder from Tome of Magic.
That's a cool looking thing. But again, we're stuck....oh, but we're not. Yeah baby, Secrets of Pact Magic. In fact, here's a link to their OGC declaration: http://www.pactmagic.com/downloads/SoPM_OGC.pdf
Actually, the Tome of Secrets from Adamant Entertainment (for Pathfinder) might cover the Warlock thing since I see a review mentioning auras, but I haven't shaken loose the cash to get it yet so I can't say.
So, having an idea for how to approach bringing these things into the FC framework would be nice. I don't know if that means figuring out an OGC version of an FX based system that's going to fit within the framework of FC (maybe lifted from BESMd20 or M&M?) but...
Sorry, I think I left the realm of useful feedback and started rambling. I'm going to head off to bed now.
I even got to speak a bit with one of the system's fans this last week at Gen Con 2009.
Was that me? For those of you that don't know, Flynn is good at getting into character. He portrayed a Scottish medic in a Savage Worlds Weird War II game. By the end of the game most of us were speaking with a scottish accent too. Who knew a scottish brogue was contagious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn
With that in mind, I would like to ask if there's any interest in seeing either a Fantasy Concepts Revised book, that revises, updates and expands the original system with all new content, or perhaps just a Fantasy Concepts II supplement with support material on various Options? (i.e. only the new stuff, instead of a new book that integrates both the new and the old stuff.) If so, what would you like to see in it?
I, for one, am always interested in new content. I have no idea which of this material is or isn't open content, but I liked the disciplines in BOXM. I figure they need some tweaking to convert into proper talent trees. Faster feat acquisition would be nice (of course that is easy enough to house rule). The iterative attacks from Trailblazer. I'm sure I could come up with more, given the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn
I have my own ideas on this, but before I invest my time in doing the work, I figure I should see if there's any interest, and if so, it would help to find out what the fans would actually like to see.
That is certainly understandable, but I'm curious what your ideas are.
__________________ "No, no thats not how you uphold the law...You gotta get 'em in the head, they go down quicker." -Officer Barbrady
Wait a minute. Isn't Fantasy Concept the fantasy rpg whose system is based loosely on the Star Wars Saga Edition via the OGL and OSC?
Errr...sorta.
Flynn went through a ton of books and pulled all the OGC content that seemed to have inspired various Star Wars Saga rules and then compiled them together with an eye towards doing S&S style fantasy games.
Trailblazer and FC sort of tackle a number of the same problems, but from very different directions. I wouldn't say they're mutually exclusive, but blending them together could be challenging. Not impossible, just... a bit of work.
Fantasy Concepts is a D20-based Open Gaming system that implements the latest in streamlined D20 game mechanics to bring a new level of versatility and creativity to your fantasy roleplaying experience. The Fantasy Concepts Campaign Resource offers: a streamlined skill system with a reduced skill list for ease of game play and character advancement; a new combat system aimed at a rapid resolution of conflicts without losing any of the fun; seven races and six character classes that utilize talent paths for character development; twenty-nine talent paths containing 128 talents to help customize your character; over 100 feats that offer flexibility and diversity in support of your character concept; an action point system that is fully integrated with the rest of Fantasy Concepts; simple conversion details that allow you to use the spells and monsters from your other D20-based Open Gaming systems; and much more. This illustrated 108-page PDF is bookmarked for ease of use.
It follows the D20 Modern/SW Saga paradigm of classes with alternating feat or talent selection at each level, and utilizes a 20 level class for each of six main character types. There are a lot of options, allowing you to pursue a wide diversity of character concepts as your character grows. The magic system as presented is similar to the system described in Legends of Sorcery or Grim Tales. Resource management for non "at-will" abilities is handled through the expenditure of action points to activate abilities, and action points refresh with each session.
There are way too many differences to capture specifically, but if you are familiar with SW Saga, you should be able to get a good picture of the game from the above information.
In terms of feedback and possible future development, in response to Inferno's question earlier, I was actually expecting to hear something akin to the following:
* Alternate magic systems (based on spell points, spell slots and/or skills and feats)
* An actual bestiary
* An actual spell list, instead of using pre-existing spells
* More character races
* More talent paths
* More feats
* Changes to the system to allow the use of AC separate from Reflex (ala 4E, instead of the AC/Reflex combination of SW Saga)
* The possible development of a system that captures what people thought 4E would be like, when all we had was SW Saga as our model
And that kind of thing.
I definitely hope to hear more, as I am curious as to what people have done with the system, and where they want to take it, if they want to take it anywhere beyond what it currently provides.
Ah, well.... hmmm... right now, the first thing that springs to mind would be something talking about how incorporating Trailblazer's fixes to 3.5 would interact with Fantasy Concepts. Also, talking about how to take some of the things seen in Pathfinder SRD (class abilities) looks when taken to the Feat/Talent system.
There's not a lot of "cross-compatible" stuff between d20 Modern and 3.x. FC sorta blends them, but there's not really a whole lot of information on how to take Your Favorite 3.x Bit and shift it into an FC framework.
The alternative magic systems would be nice because magic under the S&S style is generally a Bad Idea. But to be honest, it's something we've had for 30 years. There's constantly talk about playing a "low magic" game, a "grim-n-gritty" game and so forth. I think having a supplement talking about how to tweak FC into a more generic framework in order to run a variety of games would be really cool.
An actual bestiary... sorta. I can see how doing a bestiary could be a fair amount of work, but having a sampling of things would be handy. Sort of a "here's some simple critter conversions" as well as some more complicated ones.
Like dragons for example.
I'm right now working on a blended thing using FC as base. Apparently I've got some odd tastes, so FC doesn't quite hit everything for me; but it's a righteous foundation to use I think.
I guess part of what I've been trying to get at with some of my previous posts is showing how FC can handle stuff from other sources. Folks have spent a fair amount of money out there on various books and would like to be able to keep using them. Like for example, WotC books.
How can you use a class or race from book [x] with FC? You can't obviously call it out, but in the case of some classes there's OGL versions available and you've got things like Slaves to the Moon which talks about Lycanthropes. So being able to take something like Slaves of the Moon and show how to take a tough race and skip the stupid LA stuff by converting abilities of the critter into a Feat/Talent path would be handy.
Or even simply taking something like the the Minotaur, Sprites, and Ogre Mage from the SRD and run them through the Talent/Feat system so that players have a choice of how much they want to invest in being characters with kickass critter powers to augment their character levels or simply a critter that's taken a different path.
What about pulling in something like the Psionics system? It's OGL, a fair number of folks consider it to be a good replacement for a point-based magic system. Maybe show how to pull it into FC and then demonstrate how it can be reskinned to do magic. You don't have to give an entire conversion of the SRD spell list, just grab some spells from each level (maybe 1 from each level for each of the SRD magic classes?) and do a reskin. That'll help provide the guidance that's needed for folks to start messing with stuff and take it on their own.
Dreamscarred Press seems to be well regarded on the psionics front and a fair amount of their stuff seems to be Open Content. Hijacking a psionic class or two into the FC framework shouldn't be too bad and it allows for individuals like myself to punch up the "wah000" factor if we want and you don't feel like doing it yourself.
Sorry if I'm dominating this, but I'd had a lot of hope for FC when it was put out and there seems to have been an echoing silence despite a lot of work and a solid-seeming base. I think being able to leverage other products might help FC gain more traction and help solve some of the "how do I fix..." sort of things going on.
Flynn went through a ton of books and pulled all the OGC content that seemed to have inspired various Star Wars Saga rules and then compiled them together with an eye towards doing S&S style fantasy games.
Trailblazer and FC sort of tackle a number of the same problems, but from very different directions. I wouldn't say they're mutually exclusive, but blending them together could be challenging. Not impossible, just... a bit of work.
Thanks!
What'd I'd actually like to see is an adventure using the system. Creatures are fully statted, equipment, special rules are explained to deal with certain scenes, etc. Putting a system through its paces is a very eye-opening experience for both GMs and players.
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For those of you that don't know, Flynn is good at getting into character. He portrayed a Scottish medic in a Savage Worlds Weird War II game. By the end of the game most of us were speaking with a scottish accent too. Who knew a scottish brogue was contagious?
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