Experiences w/Shadowrun 4E

[JediSoth]

Has anyone here had any experiences with the current edition of Shadowrun? I bought the 20th Anniversary book around Gen Con and am going to be running a one-shot for my gaming group this weekend (we're evaluating several systems to determine what our next campaign is going to be).

Any pitfalls I should avoid? Any helpful hints to make the game go more smoothly for both a GM who hasn't run it before and Player's who've never played it before (several of whom had never HEARD of Shadowrun before)?

[Thanee]

Yep.

I think one of the biggest pitfalls to avoid is to make things too difficult (which is definitely possible in SR) for the players.

When you think about corporate resources and the cost of some things, there is really not much of a reason to not have everything at highest grades (maglocks, computer systems, IC, spirits, and whatnot). But that doesn't work out well.

Shadowrunners exist, after all, hence they also need some room to exist in.

Average ratings (as in what you encounter usually) are closer to 3 than to 6 or 10. If anything you encounter starts out at R6, how do the really secure places look like, then?

It's fairly easy to go over the top with those things, therefore it is something to watch out for.

Bye
Thanee

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by JediSoth

Has anyone here had any experiences with the current edition of Shadowrun? I bought the 20th Anniversary book around Gen Con and am going to be running a one-shot for my gaming group this weekend (we're evaluating several systems to determine what our next campaign is going to be).

Any pitfalls I should avoid? Any helpful hints to make the game go more smoothly for both a GM who hasn't run it before and Player's who've never played it before (several of whom had never HEARD of Shadowrun before)?

I like Shadowrun 4E core system a lot more than 3E or previous editions. The dice mechanic has been notably improved, in my opinion.
But there are some aspects I am less fond of, but if it was to me, I'd always start with Shadowrun 4E as a baseline.

That said - I haven't played Shadowrun 4E often so far. I'd love to play it more though.

Pitfalls:
The number of initiative passes a character has is very important in combat. That is true in all editions. 4E has the advantage the number is fixed, while 3E already fixed that high initiative characters got to act 3 times before the rest acted even once.
But unfortunately, it is still unsatisfying to act only once when the rest is acting twice or three time times per round.
I don't generally recommend house rules on your first try with any game system, so I won't here, either. Just make it clear to your players that they should look at ways to boost their reflexes, be it with cyberware, adept powers or with spells.

It is common in Shadowrun that Deckers (or, in 4E, Hackers) becomes an NPC role, since they take a lot of time to resolve their actions, but they are not with the rest of the PCs. Shadowrun 4E tries to fix that by giving more opportunities to hack during a regular shadowrun, attacking your enemies electronics and so on. I am not convinced of this approach - the rules for hacking are still different from the rest of combats, and there seems to be little reason to hack in the midst of combat if you can do it before during the approach (or even planning stages.) And it also feels a little ridicilous that every guy is running around with wireless hardware that can be easily hacked and having them lose control over their weapons or cyberware.

Magic can be very powerful, as typical. But please, don't overcompensate with high background counts or similar tricks. That's just inviting frustration. I don't think it's too bad.

Modifiers. There are lots of it applying in any combat situation. Sight modifiers, cover, concealment, range, recoil and so on. 4E removes some problems of handling modifiers, but mostly in regards to achieving sensible numbers (3E used variable DCs for a roll, a rolled 3 could be a hit - or a rolled 12, requiring you to roll 3 6 in a row with a d6. And you usually need more than one success for a good effect).
You still need to account for a lot. Don't overdo it. I think I am instituting my own guideline: Use the highest modifier that seems to apply, and then add a -1 dice pool modifier for every 2 conditions that seem to apply in total. So you at least don't have to add various different numbers.

Combat can be very lethal. PCs have resources like Dodge and spellcasting defense to avoid taking all the lethality. (And of course, armor.) But if they deal with equally strong enemies, they will probably die sooner than later. So don't use them too much.
Wound modifiers were worse with the old d6 system, but they can still be nasty.

Equipment and knowing how to use it matters. That has always been the case in Shadowrun. It's not just about the biggest gun and heaviest armor. You need to know when and how to use them. Don't fire grenades when you want to be silent. Consider using a shield if you have to move carefully through a trapped area (or enemy fire.)

You roll a lot of d6 in Shadowrun.

For a one-shot less important, but might be more important later: Advancemend in Shadowrun is slow. After completing a run, you might be able to improve a single skill or ability score (usally just a low one).
Cyberware is expensive. Weapons less so. Spellcasting requires Karma for learning spells, initiation and binding foci, and it requires money for learning spells, initiation and binding foci.



It seems generally advisable in character creation to think about:
o Get cruicial equipment - especially cyberware and bioware - now. You will have less opportunities to do it later.
o Reflexboosting cyberware, adept powers or spells are cruicial. Don't leave character creation without them.
o Generally good starting stats a good idea. They are the slowest to improve after character creation. In 3E they were important for bonus pools, in 4E they are directly important for all your skills.
o Specialization is possible and a good idea. Pick the skills you find define your characters ability and pick them high. Don't spread out too much. Stealth, Athletics, First Aid, Etiquette are usually good skills to learn regardless of your focus.
o Typical "Roles" in Shadowrun might be
- Street Samurai. Heavily cybered and armed.
- Spellcaster: Shaman or Hermetician or anything else doesn't matter. Important is that he can cast spells and conjure spirits. It's advisable to have a fully fledged spellcaster to also get to visit the astral space.
- Melee Guy: Might be the Street Samurai, might be a Troll Adept with a two-handed Axe. It's a good idea to avoid overspecializing. A decent ranged weapon option is always useful. Maybe a Bow if you have a high strength?
- Face: Can be anyone, but might want less cyberware than others. Someone with a lot of social skills to do the legwork. If you spend a little less on cyberware or magic and more on skills, you should be able to still have someone with at least some specialized combat skill without losing out on the social front.
- Rigger: Sometimes an NPC. A good tranpsport car and some combat drones that can accompany Street Samura and Melee guy are highly recommended.
- Decker/Hacker: Typically an NPC. Useful for gathering information in the Matrix or hacking enemy security systems. Might also be a Rigger or vice versa.
- Techie: This might also be a Rigger, Decker or Hacker. He should have lots of technical skills for breaking and entering. He certainly accompanies the rest on runs in enemy territory, so he should have some ability to defend himself. Talentsoft is very useful for this kind of character, since he can quickly cover every speciality skill the team might need.

I don't remember at the moment if Shotguns are still broken or are now weak-sauce.
In 3E, the trick was to open the choke as wide as possible and see people being murderized by shotgun ammo. _Unless_ they had hardened armor, when they would just laugh at you. Until you put in solid slugs.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Thanee

Yep.

I think one of the biggest pitfalls to avoid is to make things too difficult (which is definitely possible in SR) for the players.

When you think about corporate resources and the cost of some things, there is really not much of a reason to not have everything at highest grades (maglocks, computer systems, IC, spirits, and whatnot). But that doesn't work out well.

Shadowrunners exist, after all, hence they also need some room to exist in.

Average ratings (as in what you encounter usually) are closer to 3 than to 6 or 10. If anything you encounter starts out at R6, how do the really secure places look like, then?

It's fairly easy to go over the top with those things, therefore it is something to watch out for.

Bye
Thanee

Yep. The premise of the setting is that Shadowrunners exist. Any detail in canon, a published adventure, or your own making that contradicts this must be wrong and not apply. Whatever the reason might.

A good approach to make things not too easy is with having successfully stronger responses "ready". Sure, the local guards can't handle the runners. But they might get off an emergency call and lone star or a special government team is called. The PCs don't want to engage them, even if they could win. They need to get their job done and get out.

A commonly used theme is that of a Johnson (the guy hiring the team) betraying the runners in some way. He lures them into a trap, he withholds information they really need, or he double crosses them at that end.

Avoid that. Maybe do it once. But don't overdo it, and give the PCs a chance for revenge. Johnsons that consistently double cross Shadowrunners violate the "rule zero of Shadowrun" - Shadowrunners exist. Shadowrunners can't exist if they never get payed or always send into death traps and ambushes.

[JediSoth]

Thanks, that's all really good advice. I was planning on taking the scenario in the Quick Start rules (the PCs are at a Stuffin' Shack when an hit on an elf woman and her baby goes awry) and framing it with a Mr. Johnson taking these rookie runners and sending them to the safehouse that's just down the block from the Stuffin' Shack. Their task is to bodyguard Inga Schmidt, a blonde pig-tailed troll from Denmark. She sends the runners out to the Stuffin' Shack to get some food and that's why they get stuck in the middle of the hit.

[Treebore]

I have only ran a 6 (8?) session game of 4E so far, but I have to say it is definitely my favorite edition, and I played 2E and 3E pretty extensively, and I only played 1E for a few months before we switched to 2E.

Mustrum and Thanee cover some excellent points and issues to consider.

[ValhallaGH]

It can be a lot of fun.

One other pitfall is to play your NPCs to type.
Do NOT have the bangers react like military / SWAT trained guards. They don't stand calmly and fire aimed bursts into the windshield of the oncoming van; they spray wildly, from the hip, in a frenzy of useless fire that Tony Montana could be proud of. When that doesn't work, they scatter like rats from a burning warehouse and are never seen again (or at least not for that run).
Conversely, DO have the military / SWAT trained corporate reaction forces use such tactics. They know that a couple of well-aimed bullets are infinitely better than a million unaimed shots.

Players will plan based upon expected responses from their foes. Bangers have little skill and even less discipline. Corporate guards try to minimize property damage, so don't use explosives or weapons that over-penetrate much. Serious mercs (and other Runners) are only bound by their contract terms, if those. Don't punish the team for trying to use those weaknesses by pretending those weaknesses aren't there. That way leads to unfun games.

Of course, it's not your fault if the players made bad assumptions while planning.

[Thanee]

Originally Posted by JediSoth

I was planning on taking the scenario in the Quick Start rules (the PCs are at a Stuffin' Shack when an hit on an elf woman and her baby goes awry) ...

Food Fight. A classic.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. @Mustrum_Ridcully: You know, that it is my line, yes? I mean the "Shadowrunners exist. Everything that contradicts this is wrong."

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Thanee

Food Fight. A classic.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. @Mustrum_Ridcully: You know, that it is my line, yes? I mean the "Shadowrunners exist. Everything that contradicts this is wrong."

Yes, but you didn't use it, so I had to improvise it.

[cignus_pfaccari]

Originally Posted by Thanee

Food Fight. A classic.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. @Mustrum_Ridcully: You know, that it is my line, yes? I mean the "Shadowrunners exist. Everything that contradicts this is wrong."

Man, I wish my SR2 GM in college had read that.

The lethality and challenge rate in his game was through the roof.

Brad

[DarkKestral]

Shadowrun is an interesting beast, because it SEEMS like ratings are low, but PCs can easily have dicepools of 15-20 dice at character creation in their areas of specialty. Don't worry about it, it's encouraged, and generally, most won't get much better than that, no matter how long the game goes. There are a few builds that can achieve 30+ dice in an area of specialty reliably, but they're obviously meant to stay JUST within the rules while totally violating the spirit of them, or require large numbers of xp. If anyone shows up with such a thing, just throw 'em out, unless everyone else does the same, in which case your party is likely to be balanced.

This tendency towards specialization is balanced by the fact that even ridiculous builds tend to have fatal weaknesses that are surprisingly straightforward to exploit. This encourages balanced parties, and so niche protection is surprisingly good, so smart players will rarely complain when the street sam picks up some hacking skills and some programs to support the primary hacker, or the mage picks up some stuff tom make 'em a better face, as long as they don't horn into another PC's specialty too much, because typically, they'll have decent ratings (around 10-12 or so) while the specialist will be significantly better (15-18 dice in their specialties, and perhaps somewhere around 22-24 dice in the things that they are best at), so the street sam in this example would generally remain secondary to the primary hacker, really only serving as backup in case of incapacitation, or helping out by focusing on something the primary hacker isn't well-equipped to carry out.

However, technomancers and adepts are kind of funky, in that they can outclass mundane hackers and street sams, respectively, but they have to really specialize to do so, and it only becomes apparent at high xp or when they're incredibly well-built. (I've heard varying statements about when this is, but it's at high enough numbers that most players wouldn't reach that level until a year or two of play, assuming standard xp rates) I personally think they're not the best character archetypes for the average starting player, if only because they aren't straightforward in how they play, so be willing to tell players that those archetypes are just a bit more fiddly than the others.

One last thing to consider when thinking about archetype balance is that due to changes in SR4 compared to prior editions, combining hackers and riggers in the same group can be a problem. In previous editions, they were fairly different mechanically. In SR4, they use a lot of the same skills, share similar mechanics, and use similar gear, and that's all intentional, so they can step on each others' toes accidentally. However, riggers should focus their money primarily on enhancing their drones and vehicles, and hackers should focus on upgrading their comlinks and programs. Technomancers can sort of blend the two roles, and often function somewhat like a rigger when "hacking", and like a hacker when "rigging" when played well, so be aware of that. I would try to have your players combine the two roles into one, but if they can't, try to tell those two players that avoiding stepping on each others' toes will have to be partly their responsibility, and that they may want to work out what is acceptable mixing of the roles between themselves, so both parties are aware of the limits and don't overstep them.

The other thing to consider is that your players should be allowed to have milk runs where the opposition are significantly weaker than the PC runners occasionally, because shadowrunners are somewhere between paramilitary forces and very highly paid thieves. The game encourages specialization to a high degree, and as such, well designed characters represent elite professionals in a tough field straight out of chargen, assuming standard bp at chargen or standard chargen karma rates. Assuming everyone else is even better is kind of like saying the PCs are average professional sports players, but everyone else they encounter is an MVP in the same sport, when pro sports players are fairly rare, and only a few MVPs exist in a sport at any given time, so they stand out even in a field comprised of pros. Really, they should wipe the floor with the average schlub who will have a rating of 2 or 3 in a attribute and a rating of 2 to 4 and maybe a specialization in the skills necessary to their profession, as those are the baseline averages in SR4. The only things many runners would face which should be equivalent or better than them are well-paid corp security, experienced rival shadowrunners, certain Awakened critters, insect spirits, cyberzombies, and Great Dragons. They should not meet these things too often, save the first two, because nearly all of the things on the latter part of that list are meant to be terrifying to experienced players, and for new players, they should be out of the question.

There's also a certain level of "Is this practical and/or sensible?" you should ask yourself before committing to having heavy security in an installation. The corps have lots of money, but it should be assumed that they try and go cheap wherever possible, just so they can maximize their profits. In other words, if it's not thought to be important, don't protect it like it's important.

Last but not least, let the players surprise you, and roll with the punches. If your players end up making a difficult run unexpectedly easy and there's no obvious reason to have a High Threat Response team or something similar show up to block them, don't have one show up just because. This is an extension of the "milk runs are OK" rule, which also covers "It's OK for the Johnson to not only not screw over the PCs, so much so that it's not a bad idea to actually have a helpful Johnson once in a while." Some of the best parts SR for players are when a run comes together just as planned. If they plan well, maintain stealth, and generally keep their heads together, they deserve a milk run. If they plan poorly, charge in, and lose their minds on a run, give 'em all you've got.

[Thanee]

One particular thing, that can easily get out of hand, is spirit summoning.

Even a Force 6 spirit (which is easy to summon) is pretty tough to bring down, unless you are really good, or have a decent mage or adept to attack it with magical means.

It is quite possible to summon Force 10 spirits right out of the box (i.e. from a starting PC). Those things are insane and can wipe an entire group or building if no heavy resistance is encountered (and heavy is not just a few guards with assault rifles there, that is not sufficient).

I would probably restrict summoning to the Magic Attribute (not 2x Magic). It's way more managable that way, if the summoned spirits (at the start) are in the Force 4-5 range (those are still very useful and its far from easy to bring them down).

Bye
Thanee

[coyote6]

What Thanee said; summoning uber-spirits is too easy. (Actually, it's probably the case that spirits are too powerful; but it's easier to restrict what folks summon than rewrite the whole "how spirits work" rules.)

IIRC, similar things can hold for technomancers' sprites.

Also, beware the stunbolt cheese -- because of the way drain is figured, a starting PC can fairly easily cast force 9 stunbolts, with a decent chance of taking no drain, and a really good chance of insta-KOing most opponents. (Force 9 means that if the spell affects them at all, they'll take 10 boxes of stun damage -- 9 for the force, +1 for the extra success -- and that's enough to KO anyone with Willpower 4 or less.)

[JediSoth]

I added an encounter with a Mr. Johnson at the beginning of the adventure to serve as a framework.

The group was comprised of two human street samurai (SS1 & SS2), an elf covert ops (CO), an elf street magician (SM), an orc hacker (HK), and a troll bounty hunter (BH). Down on their luck, short on cash, and with empty bellies, the Runners all met in the office of Mr. Johnson, an oily, greasy-looking man with a slightly Mexican accent. He explained the mission to them: it was a simple babysitting job. A friend of his, Inga Schmidt from Denmark, was at a safehouse nearby. She decided to defect, as it were, from her employer due to ethical differences and the sensitive nature of her work made it difficult to simply quit. In fact, it was very likely her previous employer might send a hit squad to rub her out before they'd be able to move her in the morning. One man, such as Mr. Johnson's associate, Bob, might not be discouraging to a 2-3 man hit squad, but 7 people could be. He would pay the Runner 1000 Nuyen each to go to the safehouse and make sure Inga survived the night. They readily agreed and Mr. Johnson had his associate Bob join them. Bob, a hulking, gruff troll, would take them to the safehouse and help watch Inga.

When the group arrived at the safehouse, the found a blonde, pig-tailed female troll waiting for them; Inga Schmidt. It turns out, she and Bob attended NYU together, so the evening was a reunion of sorts. HK did some clandestine research and discovered a female troll named Inga Schmidt did, in fact, attend NYU around the same time as a troll named Bob Cavanaugh, and afterwards went to work for Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries, a AAA megacorp run by the Great Dragon, Lofwyr. After taking a survey of the apartment building and surrounding environs, the Runners concluded only the windows and front door were weak points in the safehouse. HK hacked into the areas' security cameras while BH started to walk the perimeter. SS2 went to the roof while SS1 took Inga's laundry and checked out the laundromat across the street. Meanwhile, Bob and Inga started making out on the coach and Bob told the rest of the team to take a walk down to the Stuffer Shack a few blocks away to get food for all of them (Twinkies, specifically). Inga replied that she liked Twinkies (bow-chicka-chicka-wow-wow, cue disturbing troll-on-troll action) and she and Bob started to make out again. Everyone except for SM refused to leave the safehouse, believing Bob might be trying to get rid of them in order to kill Inga. After a brief argument, Bob gave up and led Inga into the bedroom for some privacy while SM headed down the block to the Stuffer Shack.

The Stuffer Shack, home to all the nutritionally-bereft junk food a hungry Shadowrunner could want, was fairly deserted. The clerk was behind the counter reading a magazine while his dwarven girlfriend babbled about her day. There were two punks browsing the cat food, and a nervous-looking man digging through the ice cream case. SM collected some junk food and headed for the counter to pay when an elf woman carrying a wailing baby entered the Stuffer Shack. Just then, an explosion blew out the front windows of the shack, throwing SM back and burying him under a pile of paper towels and facial tissues. As two thugs carrying weapons entered the Stuffer Shack, SM began to look for the elf woman and no-longer crying baby. He found them in the personal hygiene aisle. She asked for SMs help, confirming that the hitmen were after her and her baby.

Using some magic as a distraction, SM fled with the elf woman and her baby, running down the street while SS2 headed across the rooftops towards the Stuffer Shack. SM caught a bullet in the back and did a faceplant on the sidewalk as the elf woman continued running. SS2 leapt towards the adjacent power line (confident he'd be safe as long as he didn't ground himself), slashing through the wire with his combat knife and swinging down to the street, letting go just before touching ground. He tumbled forward in front of an explosion of sparks from the cut power line. Seeing this, the two goons re-evaluated their chances and turned tail, fleeing the scene.

It turns out the elf woman and her kid were targets for a hit by her ex-lover, a man not appreciative of her attempts to blackmail him over their illegitimate child. SS2 set about finding a safe place for her to stay the night (deciding the junkie's apartment upstairs was good after the BH and SS1 scared the guy off) and they eventually just called a cab for her. Bob dealt with the Lone Stars (the cops) investigating the explosion at the Stuffer Shack (and loss of power from SS2 swashbuckling heroics). In the morning, a car came carrying Mr. Johnson and thanking the team for a job well-done, he took Inga away to her debriefing at his employer's corporate HQ (some quick hacking revealed Mr. Johnson's car was registered to Aztechnology). They took their 1,000 Nuyen and went their separate ways.

Play went pretty well. No one was familiar with the 4th edition of Shadowrun, beyond what they'd read in the Quick Start rules (I was the only one with the core book). Combat was resolved very quickly and everyone appreciated not having to add-up the results of a 10d6 roll (in SR4, you just count how many 5s and 6s you roll and make a note of whether or not 1/2 of your rolls came up 1s). With a threshold of most rolls being 2 (i.e. you have to roll 2 or more 5s and 6s to be successful), I was surprised how often they failed their rolls. You'd think if you rolled 8+ d6, it'd be easy to get at least two 5s and 6s, but in practice, crappy rolling still occurred a LOT. The Quick Start rules didn't delve into magic, or the Matrix very deeply, so they weren't used much. Still, everyone enjoyed the game and actually requested to play it again at the next gaming session. Hopefully, I can get a few of them to buy a book; I'm not thrilled at the prospect of passing my 4th edition 20th anniversary book around constantly (the purchase of a second book may be forthcoming).

[Thanee]

Good to hear, that you and your players had fun.

Bye
Thanee

[Jeff Wilder]

Great writeup. I love reading about SR play.

[Bold or Stupid]

Hey Thanee, nice to see another DSer here.

When I run SR (any ed) I run by a basic principle - the idea is that you don't fire a shot if you can get away with it. It's a game of subtlety and planning. That is until the plan goes wrong and you pull out the big guns and open up.

Remember to play to your groups strengths the people hiring the team should have an idea what they can do, so don't drop runs that they can't do.

Build a good stable of NPCs Johnsons, and other contacts, and let the team gain new contacts with only some work. Don't be afraid to kill them off.

Just my thoughts.