[D20 Modern] M134 (heavy machine gun)
 

Something I whipped up not long ago...

M134
This vicious 7.62mm heavy machine gun is generally seen installed in helicopters and mounted on heavy military vehicles, such as the Hummer and various tanks. Though it weighs only 35 pounds, the M134 is not a handheld weapon and must be mounted. With a rate of fire of around 6,000rpm, this minigun produces over 300 pounds of recoil, making it impossible to fire while held, despite what has been seen in the movies (i.e. Predator, Terminator 2, and Terminator 3). An array of heavy duty batteries feed this power hungry monster. Where the M60 spits out roughly 10 rounds per second, the M134 fires an impressive 100 rounds per second. The M134 has seen extensive use with various armed forces around the world. The only drawback to this weapon is its short lifespan.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspThe M134 fires too fast to attempt burst shots, thus the Burst Fire feat cannot be used with this weapon. Because of its rapid rate of fire, the Reflex save DC against autofire is increased (DC 25). Also, the damage listed in the chart below is not representative of the type of ammunition, but the extraordinary rate of fire. The 20d10 damage is actually segmented into 10 parts (2d10 each). When you roll the damage for the M134, do so in 2d10 segments, applying each segment separately to the hardness of vehicles or objects. This better represents the weapons ability to fire a tremendous amount of bullets, while at the same time acknowledging that it still cannot penetrate heavily armored vehicles, such as the Abrams tank.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspOptional Rules: The following rules supplement this weapon if you use the optional rules in Ultramodern Firearms. The M134 becomes unreliable (5% failure chance per use) after firing 250,000 rounds and must be overhauled to return it to full working order (Repair DC 20). Additionally, the barrels of this weapon can heat up extremely fast. If the M134 is fired for more than 5 consecutive rounds, the barrels overheat and the weapon becomes unreliable (5% failure chance per use). It takes 10 minutes for the barrels to cool down.



http://home.attbi.com/~kbreynolds/m134.jpg

(The image above is actually for a BB gun, but its the best one I could find so far.)

M134 (heavy machine gun)
Damage: 20d10*
Critical: 20/x2
Damage Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 210 ft.
Rate of Fire: A*
Magazine: Linked
Size: Huge
Weight: 35 lb.
Purchase DC: 34
Restriction: Mil (+3)

*: See special notes about this function in the description.

Any thoughts?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m134.htm

Good link with more pictures.

My thoughts on the stats, the damage is way too high. Back it off to a 2d8, that's what other 7.62mm guns are like. Then make special note of its abilites in the description. Like increasing the DC of the save involved when using autofire and perhaps saying that if they fail the save they take damage from a 1d6 rounds hitting them and if they make the save they take damage from one round - unless they have evasion. Or something like that.

Thanks! :)

Have you ever seen what an M134 can do to a light-armor vehicle in 2 seconds? Its disgustingly powerful. Like I said, the main problem is that all automatic weapons in D20 modern are assumed to have the exact same firing rate (10 shots with a normal pull of the trigger), and the M134 easily has a firing rate 10 times faster than most assault rifles. It was the only way to illustrate how powerful it is.

The other point I need to make is that the M134 isn't like other 7.62mm guns at all. :D

That's one thing I made sure I did was explain why the damage is so high, and it only makes sense. It's nice having an ammo box with 500 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition, but its not gonna last for long! A single pull of the trigger chews up 100 rounds, so with a full attack action, you can fire even more than that. I figured 20 damage die wasn't overly powerful considering how many rounds are coming at you.

I thought about doing something like that, but it didn't get the message of desctruction and mayhem across very well.

The thing is, with that tremendous rate of fire - you still aren't hitting the target with most of those rounds.

The other thing is, it is a normal 7.62mm round. Just a lot more of them. If you want to argue that a larger number of bullets are hitting a person, that's fine - but your damage is off for that.

The problems and merits of the D20 Modern rules system can be debated, but I suspect they have set the rules up to be in favor of people surviving combat. Even a controlled burst from a weapon doesn't do a multiple of damage, just +2 dice. Autofire in the basic rules assumes damage from one bullet when we know that someone would likely be hit by more than one.

Assume combat using your stat the average damage is more than the damage an Epic level fireball deals out. The damage would avg 110pts. This is from one burst. Seems out of whack

Assume we use the idea I handed out we get damage that's still terrible (avg of 4 bullets hitting for an avg of 36pts from one burst. Still enough to be horrific, considering its the average alone. It also seems more reasonable.

This was my thinking. A single shot from an HK G3 deals 2d10 points of damage. On autofire, you use 10 bullets, but you still only deal 2d10 points of ballistic damage. When you use autofire, you target a 10 x 10 area. That's four 5-foot squares. If four people are standing in your targeted area, and all of them fail their saves, four out of those 10 bullets hit.

Now, let's say that there's only one person standing in that 10 x 10 area. You use autofire from HK G3. Your target fails his save and takes 2d10 points of damage. Out of ten bullets, only one of them hit the mark. Now, if you're firing not ten, but one hundred bullets with a single pull of the trigger on autofire, the damage has to be higher. There's no two ways around that. It doesn't require modification of the rules, but there is no justifiable way to explain why you still only deal 2d10 points of damage.

Like I said, I initially thought about just increasing the Reflex DC, and though it makes sense, it still doesn't explain why out of 100 bullets, only 1 hit the mark. That doesn't make any sense at all to me, even in game terms.

I don't think it's off at all. Think about it like this. If an HK G3 fires 10 rounds on autofire, then an M134 fires 900% more rounds on autofire. That 900% increase in the wall of lead must be accounted for. Furthermore, if an HK G3 fires 10 rounds on autofire, and only one of those ten bullets actually deals the damage, then it only makes sense in game terms that out of 100 bullets fired, at least 10 of those are going to hit their mark on a failed save. If a 7.62mm bullet deals 2d10 points of damage, then 10 of them, out of a 100 shot burst, would deal a minimum of 20d10 points of damage (2d10 per bullet, 10 bullets).

That's hard to say. Combat in D20 Modern is very deadly, and the classes are much lower in power than in D&D. Overall, the survivability rate when you have less than 40 or 50 hit points is extremely low. I can understand the viewpoint that an M134 is deadly, but that's just the point. It's supposed to be. The thing is designed to chew through just about anything in front of it. It's no worse than an Abrams tank. Would you let a player drive one around town all the time? I doubt it. On the flip side of that same coin, would you randomly throw Abrams tanks at your players without any rhyme or reason? Nah.

I don't think a rules-based argument can be easily put forth for why a weapon that is extremely deadly in real life should be toned down to the extreme in the game. I didn't tone it down any less than the HK G3. I toned it down proportionately. Any further is simply way too unrealistic.

A controlled burst is different than autofire. The increase in damage for a controlled burst is representative of extactly what it says...control. More control, more precision, fewer rounds, more damage.

However, that gives me an idea for the M134, a restriction, to be more precise. I think it would be a good idea to add into the description that the M134 simply cannot be used with the Burst Fire feat. That makes sense. What do you think?

Exactly, which is where I got the increased damage values from.

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. I realize that damage dealing spells are balanced by the fact that they are hard to obtain, but don't you think an M134 should be hard to obtain as well?

I think that kind of damage is about right. With that amount of lead being spewed out, the M134 can chew through just about anything. But that's exactly the point. Each individual 7.62mm round doesn't deal that much damage in and of itself, but the mere fact that there are 99 more right behind the first is what allows it to rip through light armor.

But it doesn't seem even remotely realistic. I'm not talking about "real life" realistic. I'm talking about realistic even according to D20 Modern. I just don't see how it's possible to say that less than 10 out of 100 bullets will hit the mark when 1 out of 10 bullets will hit the mark. Remember, we're talking about a 900% increase in rate of fire, that's a 900% increase in the number of bullets filling the same area as an assault rifle. It only makes sense that you would see a 900% increase in damage relative to the same exact values of an autofire weapon.

Basically, I feel that I can perfectly justify the damage in game terms. The real question I have for you is this; Is your problem with the stats I whipped up actually all about how deadly it is? If so, then trust me, I can perfectly understand you not allowing such a weapon into your games. But, you should know that my intention was never to simply add a deadly weapon into D20 Modern. My intention was merely to add another weapon into D20 Modern. I didn't make the M134 deadly. The M134 did that all on its own. :)

EDIT: By the way, 7.62mm weapons deal 2d10, not 2d8. Charles Ryan has stated that the damage list for the M-60 is in error.

I see now where the d10 comes from. That makes more sense.

I still think you are over estimating what happens when the number of rounds is increased. More likely it would spray a larger area. Keeping any fully auto weapon on target to a 10 x 10 area is hard (even granting that its vehicle mounted), and at any real range the weapons begin to become much less effective, dispersal sucks. Even in a 10x10 area 100 rnds isn't that much. That's only one bullet per square foot, only considering it in two dimensions. Add the third and you've got much less coverage. The odds of actually putting a bullet into someone with a 10rnd burst is really low, its not much better with 100. And that's not considering what cover would do to the situation.

Its not to say that you couldn't, I'm just saying that is not likely you'd hit something with 10 rounds in area fire. Maybe in a more directed burst.


As far as how hard one is to obtain, probably no harder than any other military vehicle system. I've not got the book with me but Mil +3 matches with the other weapons in the SRD - I wonder if its low though. What would the restriction be on getting a Stinger for example. Probably in the same vein.

Dispersal is already accounted for in D20 Modern by using 10 bullets and only hitting with one of them when you use autofire. The idea that you would only hit with 4 bullets when firing 100 in the same amount of time as it would take to fire 10 is unfathomable.

Point of fact...its 900% more than 10 rounds. That's a huge difference.

How do you figure that? A 10 x 10 area is huge compared to only 10 bullets, so I agree with you on that. However, there is a substantial difference when you take 100 bullets into account.

Where are you going with this? Cover is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about the damage a firearm deals. But, like I said, the M134 specifically excels at chewing through even light armor. So, if the M134 has a hard time punching through a filing cabinet in short order (i.e. destroy it and rendering it useless as cover) in the game, then you know something is seriously wrong.

If you're talking about 10 out of 100 its very likely. It seems to me, though I could be wrong, that your issue is actually with the rules of D20 Modern and how it handles autofire and not exclusively with the M134.

That's what the Burst Fire feat is for. You fire only 5 rounds instead of 10, and because of greater precision and control, you deal more damage. So, with a feat, you consume half the normal ammunition and deal more damage. Don't miss that. Half the ammunition, more damage. The damage I've assigned to the M134 is ten times the ammunition and roughly ten times the damage.

The damage just scales up. Also, even you have a box of ammo with 500 rounds, that's only enough ammo for 5 shots. But, I think we can both agree that the M134 probably isn't a Burst Fire capable weapon. :)

I don't know much about Stingers, but I guess about the same as an M72A3 LAW Rocket Launcher (Mil +3). However, the difference is that the LAW only has a Purchase DC of 15, or about $500. I'm pretty sure that an M134 is more than that.

EDIT: Actually, from what I've found so far, the M134 looks to run about $125,000, so that would bump the purchase DC up to 34 from 27.

Fellwind. I got a chance to talk this over with a fellow DM and he suggested this compromise: Keep the damage at 20d10, to represent the awesome amount of rounds the M134 spits out, but segment the damage into 10 parts. For example, you would roll the damage in 2d10's, and you would roll that 10 times. He pointed out that if the damage wasn't segmented, an M134 would easily chew right through an Abrams tank in a matter of seconds. By segmenting it out into 10 parts (2d10 each), there's no way it would be able to harm an Abrams, or other heavy vehicles. That seemed like a really great solution to me. What do you think?

Or another way to illustrate the power of that weapon could be to raise the damage to 2d12, give the weapon a +4 to hit and +4 on the DC of the Reflex save (to simulate that there are so many bullets and that hitting something is easy, and it's hard to avoid a burst).

Actually, that's something else I forgot, so thanks for reminding me. We were thinking about raising the Reflex DC to either 20 or 25. With a Purchase DC of 34, this isn't a weapon you'd run into at low level anyways.

In regards to the +4 to hit, I'd rather not do that. I'd prefer to leave bonuses like that for specialized ammunition and the masterwork quality. It kinda makes sense, but the damage factor just can't be neglected.

Disclaimer: I don't own d20 modern. (I want to own it, though!)

If you want to compromise, perhaps a 15x15 area and 10d10-12d10 damage? Makes it slightly more surviveable, and probably more effective in terms of military use. There are still 10x as many rounds hitting the area, but they're more spread out.

I'm also a fan of the segmented damage idea. That should keep it from cutting through armor too strangely. I'm assuming tank armor works similarly to hardness?

I definately recommend picking it up. The unoffical FAQ for it has already gotten pretty damn big, but all in all, its very well put together.

I thought about that, but by the time you can really afford a DC 34 weapon, your BAB will allow for multiple attacks per round anyway, so you can autofire to your hearts content. The other thing to keep in mind as well is that the M134 doesn't have that bad of a spread at all.

Also, survivability isn't really a factor. Its deadly as heck, and its supposed to be. You wouldn't want to tone down the Abrams cannon to 1d12 points of damage just so you don't kill someone too easily, now would you? :)

Definately. Kudos to dkilgo for helping me out with this.

Yup. All vehicles have a hardness rating and set amount of hit points. An Abrams tank has a hardness of 20 and 64 hit points. With the damage segmented, its virtually impossible to damage an Abrams at all with an M134, and that's exactly as it should be.

If a person happens to find themselves in the stream of lead that is coming out of any minigun, all one can hope for is a piece large enough to notify the next of kin. I am not sure how you can model any modern weapon larger than an assault rifle in a modern game without it being instant death.

As to 20 hardness for a M-1.... A tank and a person just basically cant be modeled on the same scale without anti tank sized weapons and light to heavy cannon doing tens or hundreds of dice.

So what do you do, no full blown military items, or unrealisticly low stats for them?

Marcus

PS for an idea of what modern firearms do to people take a look at a game called Phoenix Command

Myself, I go all out.

I like a game with all the fun military toys too.

From the discussion earlier in the thread what about a decently high reflex save and you get hit by 1 round per point failed?

BTW ever seen one of these in action? With every 5th round tracer it's like the operator is waving around a 3000' light saber...




:D

Marcus

Oops forgot

http://www.military.com/NewsContent?...ESRC=army-a.nl


A Spectre Ac-130 GunShip in action in Afghan...


Marcus

Now that's an interesting option. I'll have to look into that.

Only twice, but never up close. The first time I was pretty far away, but I had a great shot of the tracers. Absolutely beautiful. The second time around I couldn't see worth a damn (I was behind a crowd that was right behind it, relatively speaking), but I did get to see the casings falling out of that thing.

Let me tell you, for those of you that have never seen one of these things firing, even watching them disintegrate a steel dumpster doesn't quite give you an idea of how fast they fire until hundreds of casings come spewing out. Scary, but awesome. :D

chunks 'o damage
 

Makes sense to break up the damage, you're exactly right that if you don't it will buzzsaw its way through anything.

I expect there will be quite a few house rules written over the next few months for advanced weapons.

I added in some optional rules for unreliability if you use those rules from Ultramodern Firearms. I also cleaned up and restructured the description a little bit.

High end military hardware, tanks, anti-tank missiles, mini-guns, etc. are, IMO, the modern day equivalent to the critters in <i>Dieties and Demigods</i>. If you actually try to fight them, well, unless you're very clever, you die.

I'm not sure there's much point in attempting to stat them, other than as a mental exercise.

My call on your minigun would be 'all within 10x10 area save vs a high DC (30?), or die. If you make save, you are unconscious, at -1 and bleeding.'