General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
XM-151 Crusher APM (Advanced Personal Minigun)
Damage: 4d8
Critical: 20
Damage Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 100'
Rate of Fire: Automatic
Magazine: Belt
Size: Large
Weight: 45 lbs.
Purchase DC: 29
Restriction: Mil(+3)
Description
This weapon was originally designed to be used as a mounted weapon in various military vehicles. However, they were eventually modified to be used at a personal level as well. This is a weapon designed to lay waste hard and fast to a given area. It uses 5.56 rounds, which can be bought preloaded into the belts. See below for the size of the belts, Purchase DC, and weight.
These weapons are classified as being Heavy Weapon and require the Exotic Firearms Proficiency (XM-151) feat to be used properly. A character without this feat suffers a -4 penalty to all attack rolls with this weapon. Finally, The XM-151 cannot be used with Burst Fire feat.
Use in the Field “When you absolutely have to kill every mother in the room.”
In order to use the XM-151 you must take a move-equivalent action to activate the barrel rotation mechanisms, at which point you cannot move unless you make a DC 15 Strength check. However, even if you succeed at the check you are only able to make a 5 foot adjustment step. As a move-equivalent action you can turn off the barrel rotation mechanisms and then use the rest of your turn to move at your normal speed.
The use of the XM-151 requires a full round attack action. It uses up 50 rounds of ammunition to fire at a single target or 200 rounds when firing on an area (autofire attack). Unlike other automatic weapons the XM-151 is able to cover a somewhat larger area; instead of affecting the normal 10’x10’ area of a normal autofire attack the XM-151 covers a 15’x15’ area. Anyone in the area of effect must make a Reflex Save DC 15 or take full damage; those who make the save only take half damage.
If you use the XM-151 with the Strafe feat you can affect an area equal to four 5-foot squares long and two squares wide (effectively covering an area 20'x10').
Reloading the XM-151 requires 5 rounds, consisting of turning off the barrel rotation mechanisms, placing the weapon on the ground, removing the old belt, installing the new belt, readying the weapon and then restarting the barrel rotation mechanisms. Use of the Quick Reload feat reduces the time to reload to 3 rounds, including readying and restarting the barrel rotation mechanisms.
Optional Rules:
Critical Fumble while firing the XM-151: If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll the character must make a DC 15 reflex save or be thrown to the ground as the M134 jams and the torque of the rotation motors sends them to the ground. If this happens the M134 must be repaired, this requires a DC 18 Repair check and takes five rounds.
Loose Cannon: If a character rolls a 2 on an attack roll the character must make a DC 14 Strength check or they lose their balance and must take a move-equivalent action to stabilize and brace themselves to use the weapon again.
To Hot to Handle: If you use the “Hot Barrels” rules located on page 127 of Ultra Modern Firearms by Green Ronin Publishing the XM-151's design allows it to fire for up to eight consecutive rounds before the barrels become overheated.
Last edited by Shadow64; 27th February 2003 at 09:31 PM..
Pretend for a moment this is D&D and you had just proposed a new sword with no draw backs and that did more damage than any other sword. What do you think people would say?
I would make it a huge weapon, or reduce the damage. But as it stands right now it looks overpowered.
As what a minigun is, it looks decent enough, I'd up the ammunition output per round (prolly around 200 or so) and give it a bigger area maybe 20'x20' but other then that not bad. And I would deffinately use the hot barrels thing, cept make it after 3 rounds it needs to cool down for atleast 1 or 2 rounds. I'd also give it it's own EWP feat, think there is already one for HMG's in D20M.
Other then that not bad I'd have to personally say.
Mistwell:
If i made a D&D Sword that was better then anything else and had no drawbacks they would ask how many +'s were on the thing . In a "magical" world such as the standard d&d world it is very easy (rules-wise) to make a powerful weapon with no real drawbacks. Lets figure that 1gp = $1, then the M134 is just about the equal to a +4 weapon (the M134 being around $30k).
In D&D terms even for a High Magic world i think we can agree that a +4 is certainly high on the food chain. And probably barring a wizard dropping fireballs and the like it has a very high damage potential, 3 to 4 times that of a "normal" weapon. Lets take the standard 1d6 Longsword and make it a +4 weapon. So, how's about a +1 Longsword of Flaming, Shocking and Frost. So we got a weapon that will do 1d6 + 3d6 + 1. Boatloads of damage.
OK - enough with the D&D part. Let me break down how i "balanced" the weapon in my opinion.
First the 4d10damage: for the 4d10 damage, well, this thing spits out on average 10 times the amount of ammo as a normal weapon firing on autofire. I feel that the damage dice should reflect this. As for the size of the damage area increase I think it is only fair, once again given the extremely high rate of fire. If I left it at a 10x10 area I probably would have upped the save DC to 20. The whole damage/size thing boils down to one thing: the amount of bullets going towards a specific area. Anything in there should be ripped up.
Now, with such a high damage rate I figured that you'd have to have a serious disadvantage...so what is the best way to balance someone down in a gunfight? Easy - don't let them move, or make moving difficult. Once they turn the weapon on they can't move unless they make the strength check, so guess what they become? A big, slow target. And if they want to move they have to shut the weapon off and then move...that will take them out of combat for two rounds. One round to turn the weapon off and move, the other to turn it back on.
For all intents and purposes the person using this thing becomes a gun turret. Now, a smart player is going to do two things: run for cover/concelment and the start autofiring on the area where the minigunner is at. That way even if they minigunner has on heavy armor they have a chance of hitting. And because of the movement rules i placed in the weapon the minigunner will have their own tough time getting to cover, and if they do they have two rounds of people manuvering/shooting before they can do anything.
Hmmm...i feel i am beggining to ramble, so i'll wrap it up.
Berk:
In my complete lack of experience with automatic weapons I figure that a person could potentially handle the kick of 100 rounds in six seconds, but 200 might be a bit much. I was shooting for 1000 rounds per minute, which is the bare minimum for a weapon like this. If i upped the bullets/round i'd probably up the damage a bit too.
As for the size of the area i initially thought of using something the size of a 10' burst or even a 15' burst (as per splash weapon area effects), which was toned down to a 20' area, but i thought that was a little large (Being 4 times the size of a standard autofire area), so thus came the 15'x15' area. Bigger then 10'x10' and less then 20'x20'. *Shrug* Heh - that's the best "excuse" i can come up with.
As for the Exotic feat, I initially had it taking its own feat, but the way the wording of the Exotic Firearms Prof goes it sounds like they break it down into medium and heavy machine guns. Sadly, they only included one of each style in the book, so i really can't tell if they wanted to make them weapon groups or if they want an EFP for each medium/heavy machine gun you want to use.
Originally posted by Shadow64 Mistwell:
If i made a D&D Sword that was better then anything else and had no drawbacks they would ask how many +'s were on the thing . In a "magical" world such as the standard d&d world it is very easy (rules-wise) to make a powerful weapon with no real drawbacks. Lets figure that 1gp = $1, then the M134 is just about the equal to a +4 weapon (the M134 being around $30k).
Naw, "magic" is basically replaced by "mastercraft" in d20Modern. You are talking about a normal, purchaseable weapon, not a special one. Not the same comparison.
However, that said, if the weapon is $30K, which is about a DC 30 wealth check to obtain, then I suppose that does make it part of the balance of the weapon.
Quote:
In D&D terms even for a High Magic world i think we can agree that a +4 is certainly high on the food chain. And probably barring a wizard dropping fireballs and the like it has a very high damage potential, 3 to 4 times that of a "normal" weapon. Lets take the standard 1d6 Longsword and make it a +4 weapon. So, how's about a +1 Longsword of Flaming, Shocking and Frost. So we got a weapon that will do 1d6 + 3d6 + 1. Boatloads of damage.
You cannot compare damage directly to D&D...you know that. My comparison was only the bare surface - assume you had a normal weapon that was better than all other weapons, what would people say about the balance of that weapon? Easy answer - it is overpowered, and needs to be balanced along with all other weapons.
But comparing damage is going beyond comparing broad game concepts and into details that are simply not comparable - D&D doesn't have a MAS check of DC 15. Your weapon does an average of 22 points of damage for a hit - which is going to be above anyones Con score, which means they must make a Fort save at DC 15 or go to -1 no matter who they are, and odds are they will fail that save. So, you have created a killer weapon that will kill pretty much anyone and anything.
Does that balance with a DC 30 wealth check?
Quote:
OK - enough with the D&D part. Let me break down how i "balanced" the weapon in my opinion.
First the 4d10damage: for the 4d10 damage, well, this thing spits out on average 10 times the amount of ammo as a normal weapon firing on autofire. I feel that the damage dice should reflect this. As for the size of the damage area increase I think it is only fair, once again given the extremely high rate of fire. If I left it at a 10x10 area I probably would have upped the save DC to 20. The whole damage/size thing boils down to one thing: the amount of bullets going towards a specific area. Anything in there should be ripped up.
What, are you playing d20 Reality, or d20 Modern? I don't care what the weapon does in real life - if it is not balanced, it shouldn't be in the game. Simple as that. Go play GURPS if you feel the need for reality - me, I want a fun game where my players don't all die from one uber-weapon like this in 6 seconds.
Quote:
Now, with such a high damage rate I figured that you'd have to have a serious disadvantage...so what is the best way to balance someone down in a gunfight? Easy - don't let them move, or make moving difficult. Once they turn the weapon on they can't move unless they make the strength check, so guess what they become? A big, slow target. And if they want to move they have to shut the weapon off and then move...that will take them out of combat for two rounds. One round to turn the weapon off and move, the other to turn it back on.
Why not just make it a huge weapon then? Is it really that much smaller than M-60 or a M2HB? Making it huge would solve a lot of these issues without making up special new rules about movement and such. Of course both of those weapons require an exotic weapon proficiency feat to use.
Quote:
For all intents and purposes the person using this thing becomes a gun turret. Now, a smart player is going to do two things: run for cover/concelment and the start autofiring on the area where the minigunner is at. That way even if they minigunner has on heavy armor they have a chance of hitting. And because of the movement rules i placed in the weapon the minigunner will have their own tough time getting to cover, and if they do they have two rounds of people manuvering/shooting before they can do anything.
And if the weapon is on a vehicle, like it often would be? Ordinarily people would run or hide from a tank, but if they just see a vehicle with a guy and a new weapon they may just try to face it down - and all die from an Uber weapon that does more damage than any other weapon in the entire game except a LAW (which has one use only of course AND requires an exotic weapon feat as it's balance).
Quote:
Hmmm...i feel i am beggining to ramble, so i'll wrap it up.
Berk:
In my complete lack of experience with automatic weapons I figure that a person could potentially handle the kick of 100 rounds in six seconds, but 200 might be a bit much. I was shooting for 1000 rounds per minute, which is the bare minimum for a weapon like this. If i upped the bullets/round i'd probably up the damage a bit too.
As for the size of the area i initially thought of using something the size of a 10' burst or even a 15' burst (as per splash weapon area effects), which was toned down to a 20' area, but i thought that was a little large (Being 4 times the size of a standard autofire area), so thus came the 15'x15' area. Bigger then 10'x10' and less then 20'x20'. *Shrug* Heh - that's the best "excuse" i can come up with.
As for the Exotic feat, I initially had it taking its own feat, but the way the wording of the Exotic Firearms Prof goes it sounds like they break it down into medium and heavy machine guns. Sadly, they only included one of each style in the book, so i really can't tell if they wanted to make them weapon groups or if they want an EFP for each medium/heavy machine gun you want to use.
OK - I'm done! [/b]
So you have a weapon that does more damage than anything other than a LAW, which is a one use weapon, is lighter than any other weapon that does a lot of damage, and requires no feat to use it like all other weapons that do massive damage, and you think this is perfectly balanced simply because it becomes difficult to move, and costs a lot?
I hope your player's enjoy rerolling their characters often! To me, this weapon is not balanced. It needs to be Huge, and it needs to require a feat to use it properly. That is how all other weapons like it in the book are treated.
After reading up a bit more on this weapon, it seems like it weighs all told over 100 lbs with ammo and power and rigging and the gun etc... and, in addition, it was made specifically for mounting on helicopters and airplanes (as seen in the picture below). It is a huge weapon, not a large one...
For what it is worth, Urban Arcana will have stats for the XM-214. I am willing to bet it won't be as powerful as the weapon you have described here. In fact, even the exagertated banter about this weapon over at the WOTC boards didn't put this weapon as powerful as you have it listed here.
OK - let me kill one arguement right off the bat- it does require a feat to use. Right in the description I say that it requires the Exotic Firearms Prof(Heavy Machine Gun) to use. Now, i'd be more then happy to switch it to EFP(M134) since this is a rather unique weapon. It's no worse or better feat requirement-wise then any other exotic weapon, be it M-60, LAW, Grenade Launcher or even vehicle based Cannons.
For the D&D Sword (magical or otherwise) damage vs. "standard" D20 Modern weapon damage; i will agree, the two cannot be compared because of the massive damage save in D20 Modern. But, then again, we aren't talking about a "standard" D20 Modern weapon here, there is a reason it falls into the "Exotic" weapons line.
Now, you are right, I did make a killer weapon (then again isn't that the intent for most weapons?). It is fair to compare it to the LAW, or even the RPG-7 in the web enhancment. They are the only "portable" weapons other then frag grenades that can come close to this damage wise. Using the "average" damage you should be hitting the MAS save limit for most characters unless they put a good stat into CON with either the LAW, RPG-7 or the frag grenade.
With both the LAW and RPG-7 you have similar ranges to the M134, although you only get one shot before you have to reload, which even though they don't mention anything about reloading those style of weapons I can assume that it takes a full-round to reload. So one shot every 2 rounds, and the person using the LAW or RPG-7 is able to move before or after shooing. With the M134 you can shoot for 5-10 rounds depending on the belt size, but you can't move. I will stick to my guns on this and i think that the not being able to move is a big balancing point. Whether you are using the LAW or M134 once you fire it you are a big time target. With the LAW you can run. With the M134 you can't, either you have to wait till the next round to power the thing down to move, or you have to make the str check to move a whole five feet, which with autofire isn't going to help much.
Here's is another balancing point between the M134 and the LAW/RPG-7: You need 1/2 a round to get the barrels spinning, and because it requires a full-round action to use you can't use it the first round. That gives people a whole round to run/find cover/try to take the minigunner out. With the LAW/RPG-7 you could move and whip out the LAW/RPG-7 and fire. Not much warning time.
The next type of weapon you could compare the M134 would be the Cannon weapon types. I won't even try to compare it to the monster 10d12 M1A2 main cannon, that is just silly. But I will compare it to the BMP-2 30mm and the M2A2 25mm canons. Damage wise they are a bit higher (4d12) then the M134, they have a higher range (150 ft.) increment and fire on full auto, but don't cover as much area as the M134. Hmm - yup - the M134 is just a slight bit below these things. But! I can tell you why it is balanced against these weapon in just one fell swoop. Both of the Cannons are mounted in full turrets, which would provide full cover for the user, correct?. Guess what that means? You'd have to take out the tank to get to them. The person using the M134 has no armor other then what they can put on their body, and you can still use autofire to get past their armor. Plus, the tank/troop carrier is still fairly mobile while someone is firing one of the cannons.
Size wise I can see why you would place it at Huge. Here's my logic why: As a huge weapon it requires a tripod or something else to brace it, which would up the weight requirement and also make it more difficult to move. You'd have to spend a move-equivalant action to pick it up, use the rest of the round to move, then spend a move-equivalant action to drop it and then make your attack. Essentially limiting it to one attack every other round if you wanted to be mobile.
As it stands right now, however, to be just as mobile with the M134 you'd be firing every three rounds. One round to turn the weapon "off" and move your allowed speed, another round to turn the weapon back "on" and then since the firing requires a full round action you'd have to wait till next round to fire a shot. To be honest I think the way the M134 has to be used right now more then makes up for the size difference.
Weight-wise I will agree that this does need to weigh more. I had forgotten about battery weight and other goodies. Maybe 50 pounds for the weapon and tack another 10 pounds to each belt. With any other normal equipment that should put all but 16+ Str characters into a little bit of a bind when using this. Even someone with a higher strength is going to have problems when lugging this beast around.
Next:
Quote:
..but if they just see a vehicle with a guy and a new weapon they may just try to face it down...
To me common sense would dictate that a man getting out of a vehicle with a large multibarreled weapon pointed at me is not someone to either a) hang around or b) let live.
Maybe I am putting to much faith in both DM's and Players when dealing with this weapon. As a DM you should give the players a warning the first time they see someone with this. Whether it's shooting a car up or whatever you should let them know that this weapon is something brand new and devastating. As a player once I see that car go up from being hit I am going to haul ass for cover and *then* start working on the guy from a far. The same tactics you would use to take someone out toting a LAW or RPG-7 would work just as well, if not better, then with someone toting an M134. LAW/RPG-7 can move and play hide and seek with you. M134 can't.
As for asking me what game I am playing and then telling me what system to go play if i want "reality" - please don't do that again. I would not have created or posted this weapon if i thought that it was some uber-munchkin-be-all-end-all of weapons. At the very worst we can agree to disagree and we can use/modify the weapon as needed to suit our respective games. I feel that it would fit fine in any game i run, it would be something like a dragon. Rarely seen and highly feared. Which, for a weapon like this, is how it should be. Just as people should't go running through a battlefield quake-style with rocket launchers blazing you shouldn't see hoards of people with this weapon either.
As for Urban Arcana, I can't wait to see how they implement this style of weapon. We'll also be able to see how a D20 Modern style Magic Sword compares to it.
Personaly I think the gun should to 2d10 with an additional die when used in autofire. The additional die represents all that extra lead being slung in that area. When targeting an individual most of it is going to miss. I think that reduced movement is also a good idea. Perhaps just a 5ft adjustment each round. Extending the area is another fine idea and haveing it be an EWP is also a good idea just because it isn't in the same class as an m60. Now i have personaly looked up info on many miniguns (as I will be using them against my players) and the weight is well under 100 lbs. For one mounted on a vehicle i think that that might be right. These weapons would be bigger and have a better range, as you fireing from high above and moving past a target quickly. A personal one would be a different case. This site http://elek.osemka.p.lodz.pl/~robert...ls/minigun.htm
while i don't speak the language has the weight at 16.8 kg (about 37 lbs)
One person asked if this was d20 reality or d20 modern. That is exactly why this gun would exist in the game. Who would want to shread mooks with this bad boy! Now that's not saying that anybody should have access to it. In my game I would let a player ever have this. I certainly have people shoot at them with it, but there is no way a player is going to hand me their character and have this gun on their sheet.
Ooops - me and my ignorance thought that if something was an automatic that it always fires on autofire, guess not. I will have to amend the weapon so that it is *only* effective as an autofire weapon. That was one of the inherent balancing points i had in mind - that even if you wanted to take out one person you still had to flood an area with lead to hit him. Or, take a hint from the info i have and allow to firing rates, one for mano-e-mano (i feel for the poor sap that is the sole target for this thing) or for area effect. Free action to switch between the two. Maybe 50 rounds for a single square and 100 rounds to cover the 15'x15' area. I really wouldn't want to have to detail out using upwards of 4000(!) rounds per minute. The damage/save dcs/area of effect would just be to much.
Now - I did find a datasheet from some old arms guide that it got printed in. Apparently a weapon of this type (man carriable) never got made because when they first started working on it (1970-1971) the batteries were to bulky. But apparently it may be making a comback as a weapon for tanks as an anti-personal/anti-missle weapon.
Anyway, here is what it says: Data Cartridge: 5.56mm x 45 (Guess i will have to change the ammo type, the info i had covered the hard mounted version for helicoptors) Operation: Battery Powered, Gatling-type action Feed: Linked Belt Firing Modes: Automatic: One of two selected rates between 400 and 4000 rounds/min (yowza! for anything over a 1000 rounds/min i'd say you would need a tripod!)
Weights Complete System (including 1,000 rounds):38.6kg/85lbs Gun:12.25kg/27lbs
Lengths Overall: 1,041mm/~3.5ft Gun: 686mm/~2.25ft Width (incl. ammo case): 444mm/~1.5ft.
Mechanical Features Recoil Force: @4000 per min: 45.5kp/~100lbs (i'm guessing on this one, i have no clue what kp means. kilometers/sqaure inch?) Reliability:25,000 rounds/stoppage (i assume this means it can throw 25,000 rounds out before a problem will happen.) Barrel Life: 100,000 rounds (that's a lot of D20 modern combat!)
Firing Characteristics Muzzle Velocity: 99.1 meters/sec Muzzle Energy: 178m/kp Rate of Fire: 400-4,000 rounds/min Manufacturer: General Electric (i read somewhere that General Dynamics are going to be the ones ressurecting this for the tanks. But it does sound like good ol' GE (the same people who make our fridges and TV's) were the people behind this thing. makes ya feel kind warm doesn't it?)
Last edited by Shadow64; 26th February 2003 at 02:41 AM..
From all that i've read I think that the GE mini gun actually exists.
Though i doubt that it's very cost effective for anything other than on vehicles.
the sheet i found is for the GE XM-214 and while the sheet that lists it has being tripod mounted it can apparently be fired as it has been seen in the movies. The sheet also lists as being in "evaluation". *shrug* maybe it got past R&D and saw a few field models but never really truly caught on except in hollywood. I still can't imagine the kick thought. Anyway, here is a link to the data sheet: http://www.montysminiguns.com/sixpa.jpg
Last edited by Shadow64; 26th February 2003 at 03:49 AM..
1) The XM214 mini-minigun was developed in 1984 and closely resembles on the M134. Designed for helicopters & light aircraft, it fires 5.56mm rounds at variable rates of fire from 1,000 to 10,000 rpm. The gun and drive weigh 15kg and the driven variant uses 0.75 -> 3.2 hp dependent on the rate of fire. The gun can be powered by, (very heavy) NiCad batteries with a duration of 80,000 rounds at 1,000 rpm. Unfortunately the recoil force is 110kg at 10,000 rpm which would knock you off your feet, but (assuming a linear relationship) if the rof were 1,000 rpm (as limited by the battery pack) then the recoil should be only 11kg which might be manageable. Despite this, military tests with the XM214 proved the weapon far too impractical for man-portable use. In theory, one of these miniguns could be carried and fired by a single shooter at 1,000-2,000 rpm, if he could lift the gun + ammo + batteries (around 80 lbs). The effort needed to employ the weapon in such a manner is hardly worth it, and the lower fire rate eliminates the point of a minigun altogether.
2) The XM214 5.56mm Machine Gun was a terminated Research and Development project (1970-1971) for a six-barrel 5.56mm (.223 Cal.) Gatling type "mini-minigun". The XM214 was similar to the M134 "minigun" by General Electric Company (the same gun as the Air Force GAU-2B/A). It was electrically driven and could be installed on a pintle or in a turret mount. It was shown in a man-portable version in the movie Predator (1987) and in Jane's Weapon Systems of the same year there was an entry detailing the XM214. It had been tested by the Special Forces but rejected due to impractical weight. Availability today is extremely rare at best.
The weight of 45 lbs. is for the gun, motor, battery (good for 5,000 shots) and 500 shots. The gun, motor and battery weigh 15kg (33 lbs.). A tripod would weigh another 15 lbs. (+2 to Acc, but use the Gunner (Machine Gun) skill). One 500-round "cassette" weighs 14 lbs. The cassettes may be worn in a special harness ($100, 5 lbs.) on the back of the gunner and are linked through a rugged flexible chute to the gun. Two cassettes can clamp to the gun (or to the harness) at once, and it automatically switches when the first cassette is empty.
RoF can be set between 3-round bursts or 10,000 rounds per minute. Unfortunately the recoil force is 110kg (242 lbs.) at 10,000 rpm (GURPS RoF 166) which would knock you off your feet, but (assuming a linear relationship) if the RoF were 1,000 rpm (GURPS RoF 16) then the recoil should be only 11kg (24 lbs.) which might be manageable. Use 20-round groups for "Very High RoF" (p. HT78, CII66) to calculate "Hits in a burst" (p. B120).
3) The weapon takes 3 seconds [1 turn] to get it's barrel rotating at the proper rate, the weapon is then ready to fire. Because of the electrical operation the rate of fire vary from 300 to 6,000 rounds per minute [fire at least 15 bullets]. The recoil force generated is great but indistict, like a constant push, the weapon requires a Gyro or Vehicle Mount, without the character (even trolls) will fall down and the gun will most likely endanger unintended targets (GM's call). [The picture is a XM214, similar to the M134 but in 5.56mm not 7.62mm.]
Excuse me, but "balance" is a nonsense issue. This is heavy duty military hardware. Saying that it is too deadly to characters has absolutely NO bearing on the discussion at hand. Nuclear warheads are too deadly for a character to survive. Want the stats for a 1 megaton blast?
The ONLY real question is whether or not the game stats as presented accurately portray the weapon. My only experience with any such weapon is from seeing it in a movie. Since d20M is suppose to be cinematic in scope, that's good enough for a source. To that end, I feel that these stats do a reasonable job of portraying the weapon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One question though, what about Strafe? That let's you convert the standard 10 x 10 autofire area into a 5 x 20 area.
__________________ Regime change begins at home!
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" --Benjamin Franklin
One question though, what about Strafe? That let's you convert the standard 10 x 10 autofire area into a 5 x 20 area.
It is allowed, but I hadn't made any special rules for it for altering the size of the strafe area since the autofire area is larger. Maybe stretch it to a 10'x20' area, thats 8 squares compared to the 9 covered by the weapons "normal" 15'x15' area.
Given what i've found over the past day and what mistwell posted previously about what was on the WotC boards I am going to revise it slightly. when i have more time tonight
More then likely i will be doing this: Damage: Chaged to 4d8 to reflect the d8 die used for 5.56 weapons. It may not sound as hefty as 4d10, but it will stick closer to the rules. Firing Rate: 1 rate for attacking a single square (50 rounds) and a second firing rate for spraying the 15'x15' area (probably between 100-150 rounds.) Free action to switch between the two. I might think about making this a move-equivalant, but i'm not sure yet.
I've found that most combats are a mix of shooting single targets and autofiring, so even someone with the M134 will probably mix as well. Given 1000 rounds (since that seems to be the listed standard) as the normal load out it should allow for about 10 rounds of combat.
Movement: The rules for movement when using the weapon will stay the same.
If anyone uses this, even just for fun, please tell me how it worked out.
Originally posted by Pagan priest Excuse me, but "balance" is a nonsense issue. This is heavy duty military hardware. Saying that it is too deadly to characters has absolutely NO bearing on the discussion at hand. Nuclear warheads are too deadly for a character to survive. Want the stats for a 1 megaton blast? The ONLY real question is whether or not the game stats as presented accurately portray the weapon.
So it's reality that is important to you, not playability. Gotcha. For most of us, however, we rank playability and enjoyment above reality. Hit Points are not realistic, but they are playable and enhance fun, so we use them. Magic and monsters are not realistic, but some people use them in their games (for fun). In your game, I assume one shot from a gun usually kills (not unconscious, but KILLS) people even if they are the heros, even at high "levels". Fair enough. In your game I assume the base classes are not balanced against each other - since balance is a nonsense issue. Fair enough, your Charismatic and Smart heros probably suck (or however you judge the personality traits). That's your game - the rest of us, however, are probably concerned about balance, since it is an inherant part of d20, and having fun with a game.
Quote:
My only experience with any such weapon is from seeing it in a movie. Since d20M is suppose to be cinematic in scope, that's good enough for a source. To that end, I feel that these stats do a reasonable job of portraying the weapon.
Wait. Now I am confused. You said the ONLY real question is whether or not the game stats as presented accurately portray the weapon. Now you are talking about cinematic in scope as being useful. How can that be?
In reality, the weapons used in those movies were plastic (otherwise the actors could not actually be running around with them - because they weigh too much). In addition, in reality, this weapon being discussed was scrapped because it didn't work nearly as well as the military had hoped it would (IE it turned out to be not nearly as portable as they had hoped).
Cinematically, however, balance is an issue. Nobody wants to go see a movie where the hero, or villian, cannot be challenged. Cinematically, it is important for there to be real conflict of some kind - some doubt (however slim) that the hero will make it. Movies consider balance to be crucial! Cinematically speaking, weapons are often overpowered (IE shotguns are shown as having a large cone effect, even though they do not), or underpowered (heros and key villans often survive the unsurvivable) - all to balance the story out.
So which is it - reality, or cinematic? If it's reality, I think GURPS is a better game for you (and I think both the makers of GURPS and d20 Modern would tell you the same thing). If it is cinematic - then balance is an important issue.
The balance I was refering to was with regard to other weapons. Is this more powerful than a M-60 or even a Ma Deuce? Yes, and well it should be. The M-60 machine gun is based on the design of the early WWII German squad support MG. The M-2 machine gun was also used in WWII. The M-134 has several decades of technology advances to draw upon. Even with the increased beaten zone spreading the bullets over a larger area, it is extremely likely that a man-sized target will be hit by several bullets, thus justifying a substancially higher amount of damage per hit. (Which reflects the abstract nature of hit points, and damage caused from a "hit".)
Would you have a Great Wyrm Red Dragon attack a 5th level party in a D&D game?
With the right type of FX, a d20M party could face a weapon such as this, and defeat it. Actually, even without any FX, an infiltrator should be able to sneak up on the M-134 gunner and slit his throat before a single shot could be fired. From the other side, should a party ever get there hands on such a weapon? Depends, is the party in a Mecha Crusade campaign? It could be the standard issue side arm. (An M-134 pistol... now THERE'S a scary thought!) ShadowChasers or Agents of Psi should likely never even be able to get their hands on such weaponry
When I DM, I prefer to not kill characters. I would not use such a weapon unless the senario warrented it. On the other hand, if the party knew that they might face vastly superior fire power and chose not to take appropriate preperations...TPK.
__________________ Regime change begins at home!
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" --Benjamin Franklin
Changed the name to reflect the fact this isn't really a "real world" weapon, it's ficitional. If you want to use XM-214 which this weapon attempts to emulate go for it. Nobody will track you down and beat you with a frozen duck if you do.
Changed Damage Dice to d8's to reflect the 5.56 bullet damage.
Changed rate of fire for the two various styles of shooting. The ability to switch firing rates is emulated by that.
Changed the weight of both the gun and the ammo. Gun is a bit heavier then listed before and in the weapon specs i posted previously. THe weapon weight also includes the batteries now.
Added in information on how to use this with the Strafe Feat.
![[New Item] M134 Crusher APM](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/general-rpg-rules-discussion/new-item-m134-crusher-apm_ltr.gif)
. In a "magical" world such as the standard d&d world it is very easy (rules-wise) to make a powerful weapon with no real drawbacks. Lets figure that 1gp = $1, then the M134 is just about the equal to a +4 weapon (the M134 being around $30k).
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
