Tranquilizer Darts?
 

Anyone have any advice on Tranq darts? Fort save DC? Dart pistol/rifle range? Exotic/Simple/none of the above?

Well, based on the description for Knockout Gas:

Knockout gas:

Inhaled
Fort DC 18
Primary: 1d3 Dex
Secondary: Unconsciousness

I'd probably go with something like:

Knockout Dart:
Damage: 1d3 Piercing + Poison
Poison: Fort DC15, Primary 1d3 Dex, Secondary Unconsciousness
Not built to be thrown. Can deliver its damage by hand or by gun

Tranquilizer Gun (Personal Firearms)
Range increment 20 ft.
Size Small
Internal loader, holds 1 dart(?)

Tranquilizer Rifle (Personal Firearms)
Range increment 40 ft.
Size Large
Internal loader, holds darts(?)

Dunno. That's off the top of my head. Shorter range because of the slightly more bulky and awkward darts, and I have no idea how many darts a gun or rifle would hold.

Works for me. Appreciate it.

Doesn't it seem a little problematic though that it would take 10 melee rounds to knock someone out?

I think I'd be tempted to have primary damage KO and secondary damage KO too, perhaps. After all, they still might make the ST and ignore it anyway!

Those stuff is in Urban Arcana actually.

das Darke

Well, in the movies, the guy hit by the tranq gun always gets to stumble drunkenly, clutch at the dart and stare at it in slowly dawning horror, collapse to his knees, and try to crawl away or shove his plot-important CD-ROM into a sewer grating or something as the bad guys close in. Usually, the bad guys have the chance to get to him, grab him by the arm, and say, "Mister Hero, you're a difficult man to find," before they blur out into darkness (and then our hero wakes up tied to a nuclear missile in the middle of an alligator pit).

So I didn't think that immediate unconsciousness was in keeping with usual cinematic terms.

In realistic terms, I have no idea at all, although my guess would be that it would take a bit of time to get into the bloodstream, no? I don't know that it would take a full minute, but I didn't think making a 30-second house rule was worth it.

Das Darke, what were the weapon stats in Urban Arcana?

Air Pistol (simple)
Damage: 1d2
Critical: 20
Range Increment: 30 ft.
Rate of Fire: 1
Magazine: 1 int.
Size: Small
Wieght: 2 lb.
Purchase DC: 7
Restriction: —

Air Rifle (simple)
Damage: 1d2
Critical: 20
Range Increment: 50 ft.
Rate of Fire: 1
Magazine: 1 int.
Size: Large
Wieght: 2 lb.
Purchase DC: 8
Restriction: —

Both weapons fire darts that can be loaded with a chemical payload. Air pisotols require a CO2 cartridge that allow for 10 uses (Purchase DC 3 to replace).

I made this with posion creation guidelines from the Urban Arcana WE. I put unconsciousness as the primary damage and I think it's correct. Even if some knows what's going on around for a while before the drug kicks in they're affected enough to pervent from doing anything of value. Even 30 seconds would allow the target to act in 5 more rounds of combat.

Tranquilizer
Type: Injury
Save DC: 17
Initial Damage: Unconsciousness 1d3 hours
Secondary Damage: —
Purchase DC: 9
Restriction: Lic (+1)
Craft DC: 24
Time: 4 hours

I created this for a game I'm starting this week where I want to give the character a quick nonleathal way to deal with mooks.

See, the one problem I have with immediate unconsciousness is that it's a d20M version of an instakill. I don't know about real-world darts at all, but from a strictly cinematic viewpoint, you want to give your PCs time to do SOMETHING -- get their cell phone out and press the speed-dial, fire off one desperate shot, etc.

From a heroic standpoint, getting hit by a tranq dart and getting to do SOMETHING -- even if it's "Make a FortDC15 to take either a move or attack action this round" -- lets the heroes be a little more heroic. You could make it something like:

DC:17
Primary Damage: 3d6 Str + Limited actions
Secondary Damage: 3d6 Str

Special: A character who fails his initial save can only take a move or attack action each round.

But I dunno.

As long as you're consistent, it should be fine one way or the other. :)

Agreed there.

Perhaps it ought to do something like 2d6 Dex primary and unconciousness secondary (so he is actually debilitated a little for the 10r it takes to knock him out).

Another perhaps is we could re-write the poison system so it worked better :D We are a bit step up from D&D1 "save or die instantly", but not as good or realistic as, say Bushido made it back in the 80's.

:D

Ditto that. I'd totally support some elaborate rewriting of the poisons section. I can flavor-text combat to have it make sense, but when someone does shots of arsenic for fun because his saving throw is that high and hey, what's a little Con damage between friends, then I sort of want things to change. I mean, rattlesnake venom did what, 2d6 total Con damage if you fail both saves? They wanted to get things to reflect the ability to kill you, so they HAD to go with Con damage, but now too many of them are Con-based.

Off the top of my head, a few good changes I can think of -- and I could be so wrong that it's not even funny.

1) Let anything, even Strength damage, kill you eventually -- maybe when you drop to 0 in any one score, you switch over to Con next. SO if something does 4d6 Str, your guy with Str8 who gets hit for 17 loses all his Str and is then hit for 9 Con damage.

2) Customizable onset times. Why not roll for damage, then determine the time, and space it out? You take 8 points of Dex damage over a three minute period. Three minutes = 30 rounds, so essentially, once every four rounds, you lose a point of Dex, your hands shaking more and more as you fumble for the antidote...

3) Either harder saves and less damage or make a Fortitude Partial option. I really hate the idea of someone just chugging the arsenic and having no resulting problems because they're really tough and made both Fort saves without trouble. Sure, I can handwave it -- "You're able to give yourself some serious indigestion as your body forces it through you before it can absorb into the bloodstream, and your years of work with exotic chemicals have given you some natural immunity to chemical poisons..." But a lot of the time, it seems like a stretch.

4) Better ways to recover ability score loss. If it's from the poison, and you get an antidote, you ought to recover (at least somewhat) faster.

Dunno. Random thoughts.

I like the cut of your jib, Tacky :)

walking to work this morning I had a potentially great idea for knockout poisons which give the kind of cinematic potential you outlined above

Primary effect: disabled
Secondary effect: unconcious

i.e. the primary effect is as if you were at 0hp exactly, and you are limited to either a move or a standard action.

Back to poisons in a more general sense, I think the simple change which I would be most likely to introduce would be Fort half saves, as you say. Nobody gets poisoned and laughs it off, it is *always* bad. Anyone had a wasp sting lately?

Something else as a potential in rewritten poison rules would be allowing poisons to continue to act... perhaps treating them more like diseases, in that you have to make a save every minute but you have to make two consecutive saves in order to throw it off? Wouldn't work so well in conjunction with Fort half ST though, and I like that idea better.

In reality nobody really throws off poisons without treatment, so perhaps it would be best to have the poison repeating every minute and a Treat Injury check of the appropriate DC is needed to actually neutralise the poison (at -4 without the appropriate medical equipment - the old "suck the poison out of the wound" routine). Fort (half) saves are allowed each minute in order to reduce the effect of the poison, but you NEED to get treatment of one kind or another to eliminate it.

Cheers

Oh, man, I'd completely forgotten about the Disabled descriptor. Yeah, that's perfect.

The disease progression idea is great. I agree that it might not work as well in conjunction with the Fort partial, because that would be a LOT more likely to kill people -- possibly making some poisons more dangerous than they are in real life. I don't know much about poisons, but I do know that most poisons act slowly enough that people have time to get to the hospital if they know what's going on.

So what if the hypothetical new version of poisons had something like:

Hypothetical Poison
Delivery: Ingestion
Save DC: 15 partial
Damage: 1d4 Dex(2) / 1d4 Con(3)
Activation Time: One minute
Increment: One hour

This means that the poison would have 5 total saving throws. The first save would happen after one minute, and that's when the 1d4 Dex damage would occur (or 1d2 if they make their save). The second would occur an hour later, and would be 1d4 Dex damage. The third, fourth, and fifth would each occur at one hour intervals thereafter, and each of THOSE saves would be to minimize the 1d4 Con damage. You could space out the damage once you had rolled it -- so that after a minute, if you rolled 2, you'd take one point of damage each half hour, and then at the hour mark, you'd roll for the next set, and if it was 3, you'd take one point of damage every 20 minutes (points of damage over a period of an hour), and so on.

Hypothetical Dart Thingie
Delivery: Injury
Save DC: 23 negates / 17 partial
Damage: Disabled(1) / Unconscious or 1d6 Dex(1)
Activation Time: Immediate
Increment: Two rounds

This means that the initial hit immediately disables the target unless he makes a very difficult Fort save -- basically, anyone who isn't a 300-pound bodybuilder is disabled, while the bodybuilder is roaring in pain but still functional. Two rounds later, the target has to save again or lose consciousness -- and even if they save, they take 1d6 Dex damage as the drugs wonk out their system -- over a two-round period.

This is definitely more bookkeeping, and in an FX-heavy campaign with a lot of magic, it might be more work than it's worth. But in a campaign without a ton of magic or magical healing, it might be a more interesting (and more realistic?) type of poison system than the existing set.

Yeah, I have advice.

PLEASE be careful if you use them to "get the ladies," wink-wink.

Lawsuits can be hell, and you can't prove I did that to her anyway.

I have a couple of questions for Takyris or whoever can help me. What happens if you roll an 18? You're only partially disabled? Or do you skip the primary damage and then roll a save for secondary damage two rounds later?

Finally, I want to use this as a trank dart (or maybe hypodermic) for animals in an adventure I am working on. Too powerful? Even a bear needs to roll a 14 to shrug this stuff off. Or does that just make sense? I don't want the PCs going around tranking everyone after they see how well it works on an animal.

Thanks,
afeldspar

Hey afeldspar,

Well, that's using a made-up system that PS and I were goofing around with. By that system, it would work like this:

"Save DC: (D)a negates / (D)b partial
Damage: Disabled(x) / Unconscious or 1d6 Dex(y)"

(D)a = Save DC on first (x) Fortitude saves
(D)b = Save DC on next (y) Fortitude saves

So, for the trank gun:

Save DC: 23 negates / 17 partial
Damage: Disabled(1) / Unconscious or 1d6 Dex(1)
Activation Time: Immediate
Increment: Two rounds

It's listed as an immediate effect, so you'd have to make an immediate save, DC23, or be disabled (not suffering hit point loss, but only able to make a Move OR Attack action each round -- basically, you're a zombie in terms of actions per round).

Two rounds later, you'd have to make a second save, DC 17 this time, or be rendered unconscious. If you made the save, you'd still be Disabled for, I dunno, SOME length of time which I didn't specify because I was making up the system on the spot. :)

That gives you some flexibility, so you could have something like a random poison like this:

Weird-ass poison
Save DC: 14 partial / 20 negates
Damage: 1d3 Wis(5) / Death (2)
Activation Time: Eight Hours
Increment: One Hour

This exotic poison affects the body's neurochemical systems and, while only mildly hallucinatory at first, is eventually quite deadly unless treated.

It works like this:

12:00 Noon -- Victim drinks poisoned wine

8:00 PM -- Victim must make first save, DC14 -- 1d3 Wis, save reduces it by half, minimum 1 point of Wis damage -- describe it as hallucinations and dizziness.

9:00 PM -- Victim must make second save, DC4 -- 1d3 Wis, save reduces it by half. More hallucinations, stronger this time.

10:00 PM -- Victim must make third save...

11:00 PM -- Victim must make fourth save...

12:00 Midnight -- Victim must make fifth save...

1:00 AM -- Poison has reached saturation point in brain and begins breaking down cognitive functions. Victim must make Fort Save, DC20, or die.

2:00 AM -- Victim must make SECOND Fort Save, DC20, or die. After this, assuming that the victim has survived, there are no further effects.

Make sense? You've got one number for how long it takes to start going, one number for how long you've got between saves once you start, and two numbers for the number of (primary effect) saves you make and the number of (secondary effect) saves you make. So if you want a poison that starts out making you weak (Str) or dizzy (Dex) but eventually makes you dead (Con), you can do that.

It's not perfect, but I'm kicking it around.

I really, really like the way this is headed. I don't have any immediate additions to make (need time to let it digest), but wanted to let you know that there's interest.

Okay, I see how you were doing the Save DCs now. I was reading it as, roll above 23, you negate the poison, roll above 17, you are only partially affected, for both primary and secondary damage, rather than the 23 for primary and 17 for secondary. I like this system. Thanks.

afeldspar

Well, here is my take on those Tranquilizer Darts:

Tranquilizer Darts
Damage: 1 plus Tranquilizer
Range Increment: 10 (thrown), or same as weapon

Well, I do like the Nauseated condition for a trank rather than disabled, since after one round of disabled, the affected person/creature would be at -1 hp, but I prefer Takyris' increment method of making saves, so you do not have to wait so many rounds before possibly becoming unconscious.

afeldspar