General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
Alright, d20 Modern folks, help me out. While I'm usually a stanch defender of the Rules as Writ, I've got an issue.
The Tonfa.
What's the point?
I know, I know -- free to deal lethal or nonlethal. But really, let's be honest here -- unless we're playing "MDT or Current Hit Points", what's the use of a Tonfa for knocking people out in a friendly, non-harmful manner?
Unless you've got combat feats, you will never be using a tonfa to knock somebody out. So let's go with a combat person:
I can attack at +8 for 1d4+7, and I can Power Attack all the way for +4 to hit, 1d4+11
So: Before going the Soldier route, I can get an average of 7 damage if attacking normally, or 10 if I Power Attack -- chances of hitting go down, however, so whether this is a net gain or not depends on my opponent's Defense and MDT. However, since my maximum damage is 12, I'm never going to be a threat for a tough guy, anyway.
After going the soldier route, I can get my damage up to an average of 13 and as high as 15, but at what cost? I'm specializing in the Tonfa!
By comparison, my character could have taken Combat Martial Arts and, at just third level, have:
Using Combat Martial Arts, I can do Lethal or Nonlethal, and I'll hit, at third level, for 1d4 +3 Strength +2 Smash +1d4 Streetfighting, or 2d4+5 -- And heck, if I played with Occupations, I could get Brawl through that and take Power Attack, upping my damage even beyond that.
By the time the Tonfa begins to be useable and functional as a "knock people out" weapon, you've invested so much specialization into it that you could just as easily be just as good at something a lot more useful for less -- like martial arts, which can never be disarmed, and which lets you add Streetfighting to the damage. (I am specifically using the RAW for Brawl and CMA, which do not stack according to the official rules. In my games, however, I usually have them stack partially -- you always get a +1 to hit, you never provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and you can do 1d4 lethal or 1d6 nonlethal.)
So, aside from roleplaying, why would anyone ever choose to use a tonfa? I checked the errata, I checked the FAQ, and I've got nothing. No "a character can use the tonfa to be considered armed, but still use Brawl or Improved Brawl for purposes of determining nonlethal damage". No "Oops, that's an errata, the tonfa should be considered Small, so that it can be concealed more easily than a baseball bat-club and used with Streetfighting". No "the tonfa also protects the wielder's wrist, giving him a +1 Dodge (or Shield, per Urban Arcana) bonus to Defense when used".
Some of your numbers are slightly off, although that doesn't invalidate your points. Using a tonfa in two hands, 16 STR, Melee Smash gives you 1d4+5 damage (3+1.5+1 rounded down).
The main problem isn't so much with the tonfa as it is with non-lethal damage being a useless option for low-level characters. Like you'd never use a sap unless you've invested a similar amount of specialization into it, or you'd never use rubber bullets unless you have Double Tap or Burst Fire.
Some of your numbers are slightly off, although that doesn't invalidate your points. Using a tonfa in two hands, 16 STR, Melee Smash gives you 1d4+5 damage (3+1.5+1 rounded down).
The main problem isn't so much with the tonfa as it is with non-lethal damage being a useless option for low-level characters. Like you'd never use a sap unless you've invested a similar amount of specialization into it, or you'd never use rubber bullets unless you have Double Tap or Burst Fire.
Hey, Spatula: Totally nailed me on getting the numbers wrong. I initially wrote it for one-handed use, but I was trying to be fair to the Tonfa, so I said, "Okay, minmaxing, you CAN use it with two hands" and then tried to go back and correct it. Apparently I only got about half of 'em.
Thing is, though, I don't think non-lethal damage IS useless. It's just useless HERE. I can make a 4th-level hero who does a TON of nonlethal damage (the usual Improved Brawl + Improved Melee Smash + Streetfighting dude, who ends up doing 1d8+1d4+5, assuming a 16 Strength). Give him Power Attack, charging, or a buddy who can flank, and you're looking at someone who can dish out an average of 12 (enough to get Average Guy) and as much as 17 (enough to get anyone who isn't dedicated to durability, like a Tough hero with DR or someone with Improved MDT). I am, for my own part, okay with nonlethal damage ordinarily taking awhile to get to the point where you're really gonna get somebody. I'm just not okay with the fact that a Martial Artist or Brawler seems to be, level for level, better at it than somebody with the weapon whose special quality is "can do nonlethal damage without -4 penalty". I'd like to see SOME weapon that, whatever its other disadvantages, is designed to give some nonlethal power to people who haven't sunk a lot of feats into nonlethal damage. The tonfa is most definitely NOT that weapon.
(And failing that, I'd like the popular MDT-or-Current HP to be made official, because that's the only time a tonfa is going to be of use to a non-feat-tricked-out character -- and the feat-tricked-out-character will be using a better weapon.)
Nor the sap, which is kinda funny, since that's what the sap should be good for...
Perhaps characters should get the benefit of Knockout Punch when using a melee weapon to deal non-lethal damage (first attack vs flatfooted opponent is automatically a crit). That way it might actually be possible for a non-brawler/MA to knock someone out if a weapon (or improvised weapon) is handy and the jump can be gotten on the target. Since a character would be at -4 to attack when dealing non-lethal damage with a normal weapon, the tonfa/sap becomes a bit more handy to have.
Although the MDT-or-HP option accomplishes that just as well I suppose.
Nor the sap, which is kinda funny, since that's what the sap should be good for...
There's two obvious solutions here:
1) Bring back subdual damage. Nonlethal damage just doesn't work for me and this discussion has really proved it. Yes, you can make a character who can get something done with nonlethal damage if you are willing to invest about six feats.
In reality such attacks are fairly easy to come by and the line betweeen lethal and nonlethal is pretty blurred. Look at Boxing. I'd call boxing with gloves nonlethal damage but boxers can and do die.
Subdual damage models this dynamic *much* better than nonlethal damage.
2) Give the tonfa some defensive abilities. The weapon has many fine defensive qualities in the real world including the ability to block and break swords.
There's a reason why kenjutsu masters won't practice against bo, jo or tonfa unless using a boken. A wooden weapon will break or bend to the point of uselessness a metal weapon every time.
In my home campaign I use both of these rules.
Sometimes tacky, changing rules *is* the way to go. Nothing is perfect. Why the dogma?
1) Bring back subdual damage. Nonlethal damage just doesn't work for me and this discussion has really proved it. Yes, you can make a character who can get something done with nonlethal damage if you are willing to invest about six feats.
Not a huge point of interest for me. The idea of successfully drubbing somebody to the point of unconsciousness, bit by bit, without ever putting them in danger of real injury, is just about as silly as a tonfa that doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
I wouldn't mind playing in a campaign that used subdual damage, but I'm not going to initiate it myself. It pretty much breaks the brawl chain entirely, and I don't entirely hate the brawl chain. As for six feats... Brawl, Improved Brawl, Streetfighting, Power Attack. That's all you really need. As I said, I'm not against the concept of nonlethal damage. I'm annoyed with the tonfa for not really improving it in any meaningful way, since the purpose of it SEEMS to be to make it easier for people with less training to do.
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In reality such attacks are fairly easy to come by and the line betweeen lethal and nonlethal is pretty blurred. Look at Boxing. I'd call boxing with gloves nonlethal damage but boxers can and do die.
Definitely. That's why I don't love subdual damage. I like nonlethal for its ideas of knockout capability, which fits in well with boxing, versus whittling down by actually doing damage, which can also fit in well with boxing. I can see, by the core rules, a pair of boxers having an interesting fight, making the choice to use Improved Brawl to get past their opponent's MDT or making the choice to slowly and steadily beat their opponent down through normal damage. Even by the core rules, a little Combat Martial Arts will help, since you'd be able to make attacks of opportunity on the guy punching you, even if you couldn't combine your CMA with your brawling feats.
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Subdual damage models this dynamic *much* better than nonlethal damage.
Respectfully disagree.
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2) Give the tonfa some defensive abilities. The weapon has many fine defensive qualities in the real world including the ability to block and break swords.
I'm leaning more towards that. I'd prefer that it come from WotC, but I'd probably house-rule it at some point if it came up. Since weapons don't generally get damaged from hitting by the core rules, I wouldn't add that in as a free Tonfa ability, but I'd definitely add a Dodge bonus to Defense.
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There's a reason why kenjutsu masters won't practice against bo, jo or tonfa unless using a boken. A wooden weapon will break or bend to the point of uselessness a metal weapon every time.
My poor buddy who practiced against a tree with his brand-new sais showed me the same thing.
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Sometimes tacky, changing rules *is* the way to go. Nothing is perfect. Why the dogma?
1) Portability. Not a big factor with me, frankly, but I don't like having to make so many rule changes that a character concept doesn't really function if moved into a different game.
2) Balance. If you make Tonfas small simple weapons that do 1d8, 19-20/x2, and can do Nonlethal for free, everyone in the world is going to want one. That's an obvious exaggeration, but I was hoping to get word from team WotC on why the tonfa is less impressive than the club, when the tonfa is closer to being a manufactured weapon (even if it was a mill handle at some point).
3) I do change the rules. I just don't casually change all of them. I didn't start this thread in order to tell everyone that I was giving up on nonlethal damage. I started the thread to ask if there'd been official changes to the tonfa, and, if not, what popular house rules seemed balance. And, no offense intended, but as someone who practices martial arts, I thought that the core rules handled the abstract combat mechanics well enough that I didn't see a need for a rules expansion. This isn't a particular slam on you, Chuck. I didn't buy the D&D splatbooks, either. Paying more money for something that often turns out to be a power creep enabler just causes too much trouble in my games.
Suggesting that my lack of enthusiasm for sweeping game changes in order to fix one not-great weapon is "dogma" is somewhat suspect, as assertions go.
I wasn't suggesting sweeping changes, and the change I suggested even comes from team WOTC so you don't have to sully your hands with 3rd party mechanics writers like me
Keep in mind that subdual damage is partially real, so it can kill you. Again its really close to what you're asking for. At any rate, its closer than nonlethal damage.
EDIT: Ok... having consulted the 3.0 PHB, which is what I thought I was using, I now have no idea where this rule comes from. However, here's what I do:
Subdual damage is recorded but not subtracted from your HP (as in 3.5). If your HP reaches 0 due to subdual damage you make a Fort save (DC 15) or you begin dying normally and all subdual damage is recorded as real damage.
If you make the save you're unconscious and will wake up in 2-5 rounds. When you wake up 75% of subdual damage fades, 25% is real.
Also, I have used the Brawl chain in my home game, which uses subdual damage, without change and it seems to work pretty well. Just replace subdual damage with nonlethal damage.
I even still use the knockout blows, giving players the ability to both wear someone down and land that one big bomb to knock someone out.
Chuck
PS
Also, I'd like to point out that you have a serious misconception about what most 3rd party writers do (at least me). I didn't change the tonfa at all in Blood and Fists, just worked it into new rules (I certainly didn't give it any munchking dream abilities like you suggested).
I did not invalidate or change a single rule in any of my d20 Modern books, just provided new ones to fill in the gaps.
(This is to the best of my recollection I'm sure now someone will dig a rule that I changed out of one of my books to show me up lol).
So let's amend that to say I try not to alter existing rules, just add new ones.
Suggesting that my lack of enthusiasm for sweeping game changes in order to fix one not-great weapon is "dogma" is somewhat suspect, as assertions go.
Just had to address this since I am in quasi-rant mode lol.
First, I am not suggesting sweeping changes. Im suggesting swapping out the nonlethal combat damage rules in d20 for those in d20 Modern. Having done this it's fairly easy to make work.
Secondly, it is decidedly NOT just the tonfa that is at issue here. Brawling, boxing with protective gear, tonfa, saps, and a whole host of weapons or tactics do not work in the rules as written.
I'd consider adding subdual damage a sweeping change, regardless of who it comes from. My concern would be that if you add subdual damage, Knockout Punch and Friends get extremely powerful. I was under the impression that the reason it's relatively easy to get unarmed nonlethal damage up there with just a few feats is that there's no long-term benefit to doing lots of damage. The damage has to be high enough to trigger their MDT check, but it doesn't stay with the person after that. If it DOES stay with the person, then suddenly you've got these feats that let people do a massive amount of damage to things, with the caveats "Doesn't work on oozes, constructs, or undead, and may provoke an AoO". Since my games are low-magic, oozes and constructs and undead are somewhat rare.
The rule you're using MIGHT be, in modified form, from 2E. I recall subdual damage working like that in 2E.
As for my statements about third-party content creators:
1) The splatbooks were by WotC, not third-party people, and I didn't buy those. I'm not trying to slam third-party people. I'm just not interested in power creep in general, regardless of the source.
2) You defend yourself by claiming that you didn't do anything to change the tonfa, but you're the one who turned this from a discussion of one weapon into a discussion of the overall rules, with the "why the dogma?" comment. Actually, correction, Spatula started the topic change, but you moved into "replace nonlethal with subdual" as a way to fix the tonfa. I respect that different gamers have different needs. After making my initial point quite awhile ago, I haven't gone into "Blood and XXXX" threads and said "Yes, but the best thing to do would be to stick with the core rules." To do so would be somewhat rude to the gamers who enjoy your products. My followup post specifically said that I was happy with nonlethal in general and was only looking for a fix for the tonfa, not a change to the overall nonlethal rules, since, in my initial post, I did not specifically say that I was only attacking the tonfa, and not all nonlethal rules.
3) "Im suggesting swapping out the nonlethal combat damage rules in d20 for those in d20 Modern." Sorry, this didn't parse for me. Usually, swapping X out for Y means that you stop using X and start using Y. You seem to be implying the reverse, however.
4) "Secondly, it is decidedly NOT just the tonfa that is at issue here. Brawling, boxing with protective gear, tonfa, saps, and a whole host of weapons or tactics do not work in the rules as written." That's an opinion, not a fact. Brawling works for me just fine. Given the abstract nature of combat, boxing gloves can be flavor text -- or, if you choose, you can say that you do not provoke an AoO while punching with boxing gloves, and that they add +2 damage to any nonlethal strike delivered from boxing gloves. Given that boxing gloves aren't even listed in the core book, it's not a huge change to add them in with those special rules. I agree completely on the sap and tonfa, but that's a problem that can be corrected on an item-by-item basis. It can also be corrected by larger changes, including adding the subdual damage mechanic, but I haven't seen it demonstrated that it's necessary to do so. And, really, any comment that sweeping usually ends up turning into a "kind of game you run" discussion, which really doesn't have much to do with my original "help me fix the tonfa" question.
5) You say, "I didn't change the tonfa at all in Blood and Fists", which seems to stand in direct contradiction to your statement that "...the Tonfa gets some benefits I feel it would have in the real world in its Blood and Fists write-up". Having not read Blood and Fist, I have no idea if the benefits you added ONLY apply to your new rules or not (if you added blocking as a skill, and a tonfa gave you a bonus to that skill, and nothing else, frex), but it initially seemed odd. And, for the record, I'm not averse to changes to the tonfa. That was kind of why I asked.
Ideally, there'd be something official from WotC, because yes, sorry, that's my baseline for official, you've gotten me to admit it, and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings. This thread wasn't an attack on third-party publishers, but apparently I've tripped your radar as someone who generally only buys the core books, and I feel a bit like you're trying to hijack the thread.
5) You say, "I didn't change the tonfa at all in Blood and Fists", which seems to stand in direct contradiction to your statement that "...the Tonfa gets some benefits I feel it would have in the real world in its Blood and Fists write-up". Having not read Blood and Fist, I have no idea if the benefits you added ONLY apply to your new rules or not (if you added blocking as a skill, and a tonfa gave you a bonus to that skill, and nothing else, frex), but it initially seemed odd. And, for the record, I'm not averse to changes to the tonfa. That was kind of why I asked.
What I was trying to say here (with apparent limited success lol) was that I did not change it's damage, weight, etc. from what was presented in the d20 Modern Core Rules.
There are blocking rules in BNF and weapons such as the Tonfa give bonuses to that.
As an off the cuff way for you to bring that benefit into the game while changing as little as possible I'd just treat the tonfa like a shield giving a +1 defense bonus while using it defensively.
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Ideally, there'd be something official from WotC, because yes, sorry, that's my baseline for official, you've gotten me to admit it, and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings.
Nah doesn't hurt my feelings at all
I designed BNF to be as friendly to the core rules as possible for a reason. I happen to like them.
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This thread wasn't an attack on third-party publishers, but apparently I've tripped your radar as someone who generally only buys the core books, and I feel a bit like you're trying to hijack the thread.
I really didn't think it was.
I was simply adding my thoughts on the subject as others are, giving my take on the issues at hand, while taking the opportunity to make a joke or two about your opinions toward non-core products (which I respect) because... I am in a bit of a zany mood today.
Actually, correction, Spatula started the topic change
I was just pointing out that the problem wasn't just the tonfa. Doing non-lethal damage with *any* melee weapon doesn't accomplish much unless you've put some serious effort into it (much more effort than you'd need for unarmed combat, as you point out in your first post).
Hey, Chuck, apologies for counteraccusation -- I felt that I was being dinged for something that I wasn't trying to do in this thread, and I got defensive.
Tonfa change makes sense -- and yeah, a +1 Defense bonus of some sort is probably about the best way to make it somewhat more attractive as a weapon. I'm tempted to give the tonfa 1d6 damage when used to do nonlethal damage, and up the sap to 1d8, but I might end up with people using them all the time. I dunno. We'll see. Maybe my players will never use one, and it won't matter.
Spatula, I dunno. A strong hero with a three-section-staff might still be okay even with the -4 penalty for using it nonlethally. Or an Investigator with a machete and Streetfighting -- get to the level where you can do nonlethal damage without the -4, and life gets more pleasant for you. There's definitely a tradeoff -- you have to be pretty high level OR you have to invest a lot of feats. My thought, though, is that, from the complaints I've seen, that's sort of true for d20Modern combat across the board. Guns, nonlethal, most melee weapons... none of it is powerful enough to really do a great job until you sink a bunch of feats into it. Compared to D&D, this blows, but it's sort of balanced across the board (well, I think, anyway).
Hey, Chuck, apologies for counteraccusation -- I felt that I was being dinged for something that I wasn't trying to do in this thread, and I got defensive.
No harm no foul Taky
Besides some of your comments about Blood and Fists (and Blood and Guts for that matter) made those books quite a bit better (in my opinion anyway).
Are you kidding? It's the best bludgeoning weapon that can take Streetfighting! Okay, that's actually probably not that good, but I tend to prefer bludgeoning weapons, and it's one of the better ones for the size to damage ratio.
Yeah, I personally think d20 Modern somewhat stiffed the martial arts guy (in particular the one who uses smaller melee weapons like the tonfa, nunchaku, etc). That's why I like some of the 3rd party stuff like Vig's BnF, Martial Arts Mayhem and MPC 1 and 2, etc. They put some of the bite back into it.
But really, shouldnt the nunchaku and a few other marital arts weapons get some kind of extra umph when in the hands of a well-trained user?
Although I have to agree with Takyris, I like how in d20 Modern it takes a few feats to get good at some kind of focused combat (guns, non-lethal, unarmed or weapon melee). Better emulates training and experience IMO than in D&D, and balances a bit better most of the time.
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Ledded: yeah, if I was gonna do some rules extensions, I'd do something to improve the life of a Martial Artist character holding weapons. Right now, there's no reason for them to use the average martial arts weapon, and that's just silly. I was considering something like having "living weapon" also allow someone wielding a martial arts weapon to do an extra +1-+3 damage (+1 if holding a 1d4 weapon, +2 if 1d6, +3 if 1d8).
Thing is, though, then it got into a question of "What's a martial arts weapon?" At my real-life rank, my martial arts weapon is my gi-top -- I'm using it to grapple, choke, and throw people, as well as using it as a tool of deception (cloaking movements in order to strike with surprise, etc). My teacher might hand me a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary and say, "Here's your weapon. Defend against a knife attack," and I've got to trap the knife in the pages, slam it shut on their hand, use that for a wrist lock-throw, and then brain them with it. The OED is clearly just me doing unarmed attacks with flavor text (since it's a bit more effective than an Improvised Weapon would imply), but if I hold a baseball bat, I'm at least as dangerous as if I'm holding kenpo-specific sticks or knives. If I don't restrict the weapons at ALL, though, I run into "Um, yeah, so, living weapon AND a katana?" I dunno. Maybe someone with Living Weapon 1d10 and a katana SHOULD get a ton of extra damage. No matter what rank I've achieved, I'll always prefer HAVING a katana if attacked on the street to NOT having a katana...
Ledded: yeah, if I was gonna do some rules extensions, I'd do something to improve the life of a Martial Artist character holding weapons. Right now, there's no reason for them to use the average martial arts weapon, and that's just silly. I was considering something like having "living weapon" also allow someone wielding a martial arts weapon to do an extra +1-+3 damage (+1 if holding a 1d4 weapon, +2 if 1d6, +3 if 1d8).
Yeah, the living weapon extension may work in a non-WotC d20 Modern game, though I much prefer the work done with the supplements. You can easily mix-and-match to get what you want.
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Originally Posted by takyris
Thing is, though, then it got into a question of "What's a martial arts weapon?" At my real-life rank, my martial arts weapon is my gi-top -- I'm using it to grapple, choke, and throw people, as well as using it as a tool of deception (cloaking movements in order to strike with surprise, etc). My teacher might hand me a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary and say, "Here's your weapon. Defend against a knife attack," and I've got to trap the knife in the pages, slam it shut on their hand, use that for a wrist lock-throw, and then brain them with it. The OED is clearly just me doing unarmed attacks with flavor text (since it's a bit more effective than an Improvised Weapon would imply), but if I hold a baseball bat, I'm at least as dangerous as if I'm holding kenpo-specific sticks or knives. If I don't restrict the weapons at ALL, though, I run into "Um, yeah, so, living weapon AND a katana?" I dunno. Maybe someone with Living Weapon 1d10 and a katana SHOULD get a ton of extra damage. No matter what rank I've achieved, I'll always prefer HAVING a katana if attacked on the street to NOT having a katana...
Dunno.
I understand what you are saying. To me, it's a 'martial arts weapon' if it's a specific weapon that is an integral part of a style that enforces training and practice to be able to accomplish something above the ordinary. If you came up with a secret martial arts 'scholar's revenge' style where someone used a OED like that, and they trained to use it, then there should be some benefit to it used within the parameters of that style. At the same time, though, not all improvised implements or weapons, IMO, can qualify for the same treatment. For example, I've trained for quite a few years in kenjutsu, using a bokutoh for a lot of the training work. With my wooden stick/bokutoh I can do quite a lot with a wide variety of options for attacking/defending. A baseball bat is just a wooden stick also, and similar in length, but the feel/weight of it would give me problems with some maneuvers even though I would consider myself better-than-average chances to use one like my bokutoh (i.e. certain 'slashing' type attacks/defenses, etc would just not work as well with a baseball bat, but may still be possible, and the bat would be much slower/clumsier for a lot of fine control maneuvers used in blocking).
Unfortunately from a rules perspective, it just seems that you have to adjudicate what constitutes a martial arts weapon on a case-by-case basis, i.e. does the object you want to use have enough similarity to something you've been trained with or is it an object that you could realisitically see providing a similar benefit to another 'martial arts weapon'.
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EDIT: Ok... having consulted the 3.0 PHB, which is what I thought I was using, I now have no idea where this [subdual] rule comes from. However, here's what I do:
Looks to me like it comes from 1e AD&D!
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Originally Posted by Spatula
Nor the sap, which is kinda funny, since that's what the sap should be good for...
Perhaps characters should get the benefit of Knockout Punch when using a melee weapon to deal non-lethal damage (first attack vs flatfooted opponent is automatically a crit). That way it might actually be possible for a non-brawler/MA to knock someone out if a weapon (or improvised weapon) is handy and the jump can be gotten on the target.
This is precisely the house rule that I've been using for sap, pistol whip and related weapons. It mirrors what we see in the movies and works for us.
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I like nonlethal for its ideas of knockout capability, which fits in well with boxing, versus whittling down by actually doing damage, which can also fit in well with boxing. I can see, by the core rules, a pair of boxers having an interesting fight, making the choice to use Improved Brawl to get past their opponent's MDT or making the choice to slowly and steadily beat their opponent down through normal damage. Even by the core rules, a little Combat Martial Arts will help, since you'd be able to make attacks of opportunity on the guy punching you, even if you couldn't combine your CMA with your brawling feats.
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