General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
Alternate Vehicle/Aerial Combat Rules for d20 Modern?
So I just finished reading the d20 Modern book, and I've yet to play a game, but the vehicle combat rules seem a bit...complex...for my group's tastes. So what I'm looking for either (1) proof that the Modern vehicle combat isn't as clunky as it looks or (2) suggestions of other rulesets that I could drop into Modern with little hassle.
So what are my problems with the rules as written? It seems to me that, even with the increased scale, a chase is going to make it across the map in short order (especially my el-cheapo one), which means constant re-drawing of obstacles and road-course. There also don't seem to be enough options for stunts, and there are no concrete rules for aerial combat.
I guess I'm looking for something a little more abstract and cinematic. I've heard from Henry that Spycraft's chase system is more abstract. How does it work, and would it be easy to place it in Modern? How well does it work for dogfighting?
Are there any other systems that I've never even heard of by some spectacular 3rd party publisher? I'm running a hard and fast summer game for an all D&D crowd, so I'm looking for something easy to learn and fun to execute.
I don't have it myself, but I hear the Spycraft chase rules are very good, and are abstract. They're a bit complicated to learn at first, kinda like D&D combat, but they sound good. Check the d20 System forum for threads about it.
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There are extrapolated air combat rules in the Blood and Guts from RPG Objects. The same rules also appear in my own Hell on Earth (1939-1945). They work just like the driving rules, but involve more "stunts."
In my experience the chases do run across the map pretty quickly. We usually do away with the actual "map" and use the rules and the game pieces to keep track of the distence between the vehicles in the chase and the position of those vehicles in relation to each other.
I don't have it myself, but I hear the Spycraft chase rules are very good, and are abstract. They're a bit complicated to learn at first, kinda like D&D combat, but they sound good. Check the d20 System forum for threads about it.
I agree here the spycraft chase systen is pretty darn good. There are some cards that have the manuvers on them that you can dowload and use during chase. Try this link http://www.spycraftrpg.com/resources/chase_cards_v2.pdf .I'll be using the chase system in pretty much any d20 game that I run. They apply to foot, air, and sea chases as well.
In my experience the chases do run across the map pretty quickly. We usually do away with the actual "map" and use the rules and the game pieces to keep track of the distence between the vehicles in the chase and the position of those vehicles in relation to each other.
I hadn't thought of doing it that way, since the rule-book is so "grid square" focused, but I can see how it might work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundark
I'll be using the chase system in pretty much any d20 game that I run. They apply to foot, air, and sea chases as well.
That sounds like the type of flexibility I'm looking for. I'll stop by my FLGS today and decide if I like what I see.
Any other suggestions of systems that have been missed?
Our upcoming product, GRIM TALES, features a Vehicle Combat system that is based on what I consider the best of both Spycraft and d20 Modern.
Excellent Wulf! Is it going to be grid-oriented like Modern, or Relative-Position Oriented, like Spycraft? I just can't see a properly done grid-oriented system - there's too much disparity between vehicles, and not nearly enough table space, for a grid-oriented system.
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Excellent Wulf! Is it going to be grid-oriented like Modern, or Relative-Position Oriented, like Spycraft? I just can't see a properly done grid-oriented system - there's too much disparity between vehicles, and not nearly enough table space, for a grid-oriented system.
Agreed, grid-based is terrible. Grim Tales is very, very relative.
Anyone who wants a peek can email me; my email is readily available at the Bad Axe website.
Thanks Wulf! These rules are a really nice read, and appear abstract enough to suit my group. I hope you add more Aerial Maneuvers in the future! We are trying these out this weekend and if they translate to the gaming table as well as I think they will, then I'll be buying a copy of Grim Tales.
-Breakdaddy (who has the benefit of being the GM for our little rabble)
I hope you add more Aerial Maneuvers in the future!
Well, keep in mind that you can use all of the maneuvers presented earlier in the chapter, which I think are pretty comprehensive-- remember, keep it abstract! Close/Lengthen, a few ways to Ram/Herd, and a few ways to Evade and you're pretty much set.
It's just that, even in the abstract, aerial combat requires a couple of other key maneuvers (take off, land, etc.) that change your position relative to the ground. Tracking the position of the ground is one relative scale abstraction that's pretty important, obvious, and exclusive to atmospheric aerial combat.
It's just that, even in the abstract, aerial combat requires a couple of other key maneuvers (take off, land, etc.) that change your position relative to the ground. Tracking the position of the ground is one relative scale abstraction that's pretty important, obvious, and exclusive to atmospheric aerial combat.
Wulf
Your point is well taken, I just like the "Kewl Factor" of some of the possible aeronautical feats of prowess as it were. It is perfectly workable and far simpler as is.
Agreed, grid-based is terrible. Grim Tales is very, very relative.
Anyone who wants a peek can email me; my email is readily available at the Bad Axe website.
I dunno. As an old-school wargamer who fell in love with grid-based combat rules, it has its place in stationary battlefield.
But even I know it is not good for chase encounter scenes. Spycraft offers the rules for chase scene but not for tactical battle scenes. d20 Modern offers the rules for tactical battle scenes but not for chase scenes. A good ruleset would have to include both.
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Agreed, grid-based is terrible. Grim Tales is very, very relative.
Anyone who wants a peek can email me; my email is readily available at the Bad Axe website.
Wulf
Wulf, I bounced around the Bad Axe site and couldn't find your email anywhere - unless my morning coffee just hasn't kicked in yet.....
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I dunno. As an old-school wargamer who fell in love with grid-based combat rules, it has its place in stationary battlefield.
Oh, please don't get me wrong. I like a grid-based, or better yet, hex-based system for, as you aptly put it, a stationary battlefield. I've enjoyed many a Battletech game in my time.
I should have been more precise. I just don't understand why d20Modern has a grid based chase system. That's just silly.
Car Wars kinda made it work, and it seems to me there's a lot of Car Wars in the d20M rules, but the difference is that Car Wars was a game unto itself. As a rule subset in the complicated juggernaut of d20 rules-- not so good an option.
I can see his apprehension. I almost didnt click that one either. I wasnt sure if it would go straight to you or some webmaster that would reply "what are you talking about???"
Oddly enough, our d20 Modern group used the Spycraft rules for chases and the Blood and Guts/Hell on Earth aerial combat rules mentioned in this thread. While I like both, the Spycraft just feel a little too abstract to me sometimes; I'd like something just a bit more, but I'm not sure what. We tried the d20 Modern grid system and it just did not work at all for us.
We did enjoy using the BnG/HoE rules, with the HoE classes and feats to make it more fun for our WWII based short campaign. I still have a guy in my group that keeps mumbling about getting revenge on the BF-109's that shot him down...
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