Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

*SNIP*

Apatosaurus doesn't really have a larger body than Diplodocus, after all, just a thicker-boned one.

Maybe the two could be split up more by Hit Dice and Strength- rather than Size.

EDIT:
I've had a look at the skeletal drawings- given the relatively short neck (compared to Barosaurus or Supersaurus) and given the closeness in size of Diplodocus carnegii to Diplodocus hallorum- (90 ft, compated to 98 ft) a possible option could be:

That's not what I'm seeing in the skeletons. For example, look at these skeletal reconstructions of Diplodocus carnegiei and Apatosaurus excelsus and compare the distance between the hip and shoulder or the space between the feet with the lengths of the neck and tail.

The Diplodocus has a neck about twice as long as the body, and a tail four times as long. The Apatosaurus has a neck about 150% as long as the body and a tail about 250%.

The Apatosaurus's body is definitely proportionally bigger. Since I want the "Standard Sauropod" to also represent species that were a bit stockier than Apatosaurus, such as Camarasaurus, I think the current Space/Reach will do.

Although I've changed my mind again about Diplodocids, and think I'll go back to my original plan of having them have bite and tail reach that are each 50% longer than standard, rather than giving them +100% necks and +50% tails. The ratio of neck-to-tail lengths is roughly the same in most of these sauropods.

EDIT: Just made the changes to my Sauropod stats. Better start on the bipedal prosauropods.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Bipedal ones (as adults) can probably run from Small (Thecodontosaurus) to Large (Plateosaurus) and the minimum size for a baby specimen is probably Diminuitive (Mussaurus- 6 inches to base of tail, 15 inches long overall)

It is possible Thecodontosaurus had smaller babies- but we probably do not need Fine dinosaurs.

I'm statting them from Small upwards, since the littler ones are more background fauna than potential combatant. I'm including Huge to represent a really really big specimen of Plateosaurus or Yunnanosaurus, since the latter may have reached 30-40 feet and over 2 tons. Although in the case of Yunnanosaurus youngi I'm not 100% sure it was not quadrupedal (although the sources I've seen seem to be pretty confident the smaller Y. huangi was bipedal, a lot of them say Y. youngi was a quadruped or "semi-quadrupedal".)

[hamishspence]

I think it's still unclear whether it is a sauropod or a prosauropod (I've seen cases made for both)- still- it makes a good maximum for the bipedal sauropodomorphs.

I'm guessing that if it's not a round number, Reach (in either direction) rounds down- since 15 ft + 50% is 22.5 ft.

80 ft works out well for the original Diplodocus longus.

A larger specimen- maybe Diplodocus hallorum or the largest specimens of Diplodocus carnegii (or, for that matter, Supersaurus) - works well as 30 ft bite, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail.

And the middle-of-the-range size for Amphicoelias fragillimus coincides well with 45 ft bite, 30 ft body, 90 ft tail.

Long-necked sauropods vary a bit in tail-length- the longest-necked (proportionally) such as (Omeisaurus) might need a tail slap as short as its body, and a bite reach twice as long- say, 30 ft bite, 15 ft body, 15 ft tail. Not sure what the mean tail length should be.

The Standard Sauropod build should work out for most- 60 ft specimens like Cetiosaurus as Huge (fits, given the weight the New Walk Museum gives for it's Rutland Dinosaur is around 10 tons, rather than the 27 Wikipedia gives.

The larger Apatosaurus species fit with an 80 ft Gargantuan standard sauropod.

And some of the longest and largest titanosaurs, may reach 120 ft- Colossal sauropod. Argentinosaurus itself is believed to not be as big as the 120 ft mounted specimen would indicate (the mount was based on a lot of speculation, and revised estimates are more like 80-90 ft long), but there are other giant titanosaurs.

Maybe the different sauropod types should be named generically, "Huge Longtail Sauropod, Gargantuan Longtail sauropod" etc- and the species, could be described in the examples:

"This can be used to represent smaller diplodocids- such as Diplodocus longus" etc.

and for ones with odd proportions- this could be put in a mini-statblock- like "Barosaurus: As Gargantuan Longtail (30 ft bite reach, 20 ft space), but with a 40 ft tail slap"

(since Barosaurus is up to 90 ft long and rather heavier than Diplodocus)

Supersaurus is also tricky, size-wise- possibly increase the bite reach and decrease the tail slap range. 40 ft bite, 20 ft Space, 50 ft tail slap seems to be in the right ballpark- given that its maximum length is listed as 112 ft.

Interestingly, when I looked up size-range variations for Apatosaurus and Diplodocus, the maximum for adult Apatosaurus, and the minimum for adult Diplodocus, were both 82 ft.

[hamishspence]

Some sauropods (Barapasaurus, possibly Paralititan) have a big, chunky body, a very high weight, and a relatively short neck and tail.

At 60 ft long and 48 tonnes-odd in weight, Barapasaurus should be 20 ft Bite Reach, 20 ft Tail Slap Reach, 20 ft Space.

The "short neck and tail" group- with all three being the same length- would possibly cover quite a few sauropods, from the early, to the late.

Camerasaurus is listed as only 59 ft long- and has both a short neck, and a (fairly) short tail- yet is fairly heavy at around 18 tonnes.

So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (Barapasaurus) to 90 ft Colossal (Paralititan?)

This might also work for brachiosaurs- tail reach being twice bite reach seems a bit much- especially since many have very long necks and very short tails (Qiaowanlong, Giraffatitan, Sauroposeidon). The high shoulders might restrict the bite reach- but not that much.

Even Brachiosaurus altithorax does not look especially long-tailed- not when tail is compared to body length.

Using the same formula as for Chunky Sauropods, would give:

45 ft long for a Huge brachiosaur-type: Qiaowanlong or Euhelopus,
60 ft for a Gargantuan one- like Giraffatitan,
and 90 ft for a Colossal one (Sauroposeidon).

EDIT: While Wikipedia has since edited the Diplodocus and Amphicoelias entries- I managed to find a reference of mine in another thread, prior to the edit, that gave, for the original Diplodocus carnegii skeleton, a head/neck length of 22 ft, body length of 13 ft, tail length of 50 ft. This equates to 85 ft.

Rounding down, after placing on a 15 ft base, and allowing for the curve of the spine and the wavy tail- the 20 ft Bite, 15 ft Space, 45 ft Tail Huge diplodocid, does seem to work- it is a little short, but not problematically so.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (Barapasaurus) to 90 ft Colossal (Paralititan?)

For most of the chunky sauropods I'd just use my standard 'Brontosaur' stats, and Brachiosaurs for the particularly bulky ones.

EDIT: I've added a note to that effect to my sauropod stats.

[hamishspence]

For the Brachiosaur basic type, it gave a figure of twice the bite reach, for the tail- same proportions as the basic sauropod- which is the bit I was dubious about (since some have a tail reach (and bite reach) roughly the same length- such as Barapasaurus)

Though the sample one actually has a 20ft tail slap.

Maybe reduce the tail slap range?

it makes a good general sauropod type- from quite low sizes to quite high- since a lot of sauropods, and possibly prosauropods, were in the 45 ft long but Huge Size category- with tails and necks close to the same length.

so- the following major classes:

Basic Sauropod:
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = 2 x Space

Slender Sauropod:
Bite reach = 1.5 x Space, Tail reach = 3 x Space

Chunky/Tall Sauropod:
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = Space

All these seem about right.

and maybe with the other two as "templates" that can be layered onto an existing one?

Long necked Sauropod:
As one of the other categories, but Bite Reach = 2 x Space

Short-tailed Sauropod:
As one of the other categories, but Tail Slap Reach = Space

Armoured Sauropod:
As one of the other classes (usually either Basic or Chunky/Tall)

Using this system:
Mamenchisaurus could be a Basic Sauropod with the Long-necked template added,

Supersaurus could be a Slender Sauropod with the Long-necked template added, and:

Sauroposeidon could be a Chunky Sauropod with the Long necked template added.

With all 3 being Gargantuan.

[hamishspence]

Instead of giving each of the three major types of sauropod (Standard, Slender, Heavy) different Bite and Tail Slap Reach values (since so many break them) why not split the Rech values off, giving them each their own names:

Very Short (0.5 x Reach)
Short(Reach)
Average (1.5 x Reach)
Long (2 x Reach)
Very Long (2.5 x Reach)
Extremely Long (3 x Reach)

(all lengths round down to the nearest 5 ft, to a minimum of 5 ft at Medium Size)

Using this system:
Diplodocus would be a Huge Slender Sauropod with an Average neck and an Extremely Long tail (20 ft + 15 ft + 45 ft = 80 ft)

Nigersaurus would be a Large Standard Sauropod with a Very Short neck and an Average tail (5 ft + 10 ft + 15 ft = 30 ft)

Does this simplify the Size arguments somewhat?

[xidoraven]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

3.5 statblocks do (sometimes) allow for Colossal creatures with a Space larger than 30 ft.

the 3.5 revision to Epic Handbook, gives the devastation vermin, and the biggest Abomination, a 50 ft space.

In Draconomicon, it covers only shortly the idea of 'Colossal+' which I have only ever seen in that book. I will have to post what I know about it later when my things aren't being packed and moved around (*sniffles* I hate not being able to look at my books).

Originally Posted by hamishspence

It is sort of funny- that we've just been statting out spiked, armoured- and club-tailed thyreophorans-

and it turns out- that there are spiked, armoured, and club-tailed sauropods.

Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting. Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here... Here for dinos and here for prims. Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).

Originally Posted by Cleon

As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.

I thought about including spine-backed sauropods but most sauropod spines were fairly small they'd probably not do much as far as the animal's D&D stat go, so I decided to consider them to be for display or species recognition of a a standard generic Sauropod, or just part of the armour of an Armoured sauropod to cover the most exaggeratedly spiny genera like Augustina.

I agree with that choice - if they are not big enough to make a difference in attack, and don't add to AC it's not worth adding - but natural AC is a good idea.

I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends... And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build. In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.

I dunno - in any case, you both are blowing me out the water here. I feel impotent.

Minmi makes me smile to think about it.... I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller. I bet they would be like a cow..... but I want one to play fetch with....

[hamishspence]

Epic Handbook invented it, Draconomicon expanded on it.

Oddly, the Devastation Vermin (and the Aspect of the Leviathan in Elder Evils) were only described as Colossal- despite their having a bigger Space.

From what I can tell, Colossal+ dragons only get expanded Reach, not Space (they are still listed as 30 ft Space in Draconomicon). which is strange.

Especially given that the miniature for the Colossal Red Dragon, appears to have a base twice as wide as those of the Gargantuan dragons- putting it at 40 ft Space.

I did some tests with my proposed Reach categories and they work quite well for distinguishing otherwise similar diplodocids:

Barosaurus: Huge, Long Neck, Very Long Tail- works out to:
30 ft neck, 15 ft body, 35 ft tail

Diplodocus: Huge, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 15 ft body, 45 ft tail

Mamenchisaurus: Huge, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
35 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

Apatosaurus (young)
Huge, Short Neck, Long Tail:
15 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

and you can, roughly, represent the Gargantuan ones too:

Supersaurus: Gargantuan, Long Neck, Very Long Tail:
40 ft neck, 20 ft body, 50 ft tail

Diplodocus hallorum: Gargantuan, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail

Mamenchisaurus: Gargantuan, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
50 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail

Apatosaurus (adult)
Gargantuan, Short Neck, Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by xidoraven

Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting. Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here... Here for dinos and here for prims. Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).

Okay, I'll have a look at your dinosaur list...

...Hmm, the Megaraptor stats I posted back on page 1 of this thread will do for Baryonyx in a pinch, and I think I've pretty well covered most of the Sauropods and Thyreophoran armoured dinosaurs.

I've already got takes on Coelophysis, Dilophosaurus, Spinosaurus and Ornithomimosaurs practically finished, so I can hopefully post those in a day or three.

EDIT: Hold on, I'd already posted my Ornithomimid stats when I unveiled my take on Deinocheirus.:EDIT

That would seem to leave Scythe-Lizard (e.g. Segnosaurus), Horn-Face (Ceratopsians & Protoceratopsians) and Bird-Foot (Iguanodons & Hadrosaurs) dinosaurs as the main standouts on your "want lists". I started roughing out some Therizinosaurs a few weeks ago but got distracted by work, so those would (most likely) be the first type I'd do, followed by the Horned Dinosaurs, although I'll release the lighweight theropods I mentioned in the previous paragraph first.

It would also be pretty easy to scale down my Deinonychus and Utahraptor stats to create the smaller Dromaeosaurs such as Velociraptor (Small), Bambiraptor (Tiny), but I think I'd want to do a more elaborate write-up like I did for the Sauropods and Thyreophorans so I can include the various other Maniraptors: the Diminutive Epidexipteryx; the more lightly armed Troodontidae; the winged and half-winged (Sinornithosaurus, Rahonavis, Archaeopterytx et cetera) and the short-armed Unenlagiinae.

Originally Posted by xidoraven

I agree with that choice - if they are not big enough to make a difference in attack, and don't add to AC it's not worth adding - but natural AC is a good idea.

Ugh! I must have written that in a hurry, judging by the typos. I'll have to edit it for grammar, so I do not have to face the shame of it.

Originally Posted by xidoraven

I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends... And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build. In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.

Yes, I think having a maximum reach of triple space is a reasonable upper limit. If I remember correctly, there are 3E stats for an awl pike which give it triple reach, and I think of a Diplodocus's tail as having a similar extravagant extent.

Originally Posted by xidoraven

Minmi makes me smile to think about it.... I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller. I bet they would be like a cow..... but I want one to play fetch with....

I'd think a Bambiraptor would make a cuter pet, and be more likely to enjoy fetch.

[Cleon]

Anyway, I've finished the Prosauropod stats so might as well post them.

I think I'd better put them in a new post rather than insert them in the Sauropoda stats - that post is already long enough!

I may add some flavour text later or tweak the stats later. I decided to give them a single "claws" attack because their arms are short and (probably) not that agile, so it felt appropriate that they could only grab a single foe with both hands as one attack. That, and I wanted to distinguish them more from the dinosaurs with longer arms that have a pair of claw attacks in 3E.

You may also have noticed I put the age data in blue. That was just a result of fooling around with the formatting, but I quite liked the way it stood out in the original layout so left it in. Works better against a white background, though.

EDIT: Hmm, that blue really doesn't work on the Enworld boards, I'll probably change it later.

[Cleon]

Bipedal Prosauropods
Bipedal prosauropods have massive tails which account for roughly half their body length, barrel-like bodies supported on strong hind legs and short but sturdy forearms whose 5-fingered hands are equipped with sturdy claws, with an enlarged claw on their innermost digit (the "thumb"). Their heads are fairly small, on a quite long neck. They have small, serrated teeth that can give quite a nasty bite, but their claws and tails are their primary defence.

A bipedal prosauropods stats could be used to represent a fairly generic bipedal herbivorous dinosaur, such as a Hypsilophodon, although such animals were probably a little faster and did not have as large claws.

Small Prosauropod (Thecodontosaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6) or claw +0 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6); or claws +0 melee (1d4) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: ¼
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 (Small); 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The smallest bipedal prosauropods include the oldest and most primitive examples of their kind, such as Panphagia.

A Small-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 5 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 20-30 pounds.

Little Prosauropod (Unaysaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1) or claws +0 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1); or claws +0 melee (1d4+1) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: ¼
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A little bipedal prosauropod roughly 7 feet long from nose to tail and weighing around 50-60 pounds.

Medium Prosauropod (Coloradisaurus?)
Late Triassic (220-210 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+0 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3) or claws +5 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3); or claws +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite –1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A Medium-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 10 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 180-250 pounds.

Large Prosauropod (Massospondylus)
Late Triassic to Early Jurassic (210-185 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+13
Attack: Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6) or claws +9 melee (1d10+4)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6); or claws +9 melee (1d10+4) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 2d6+6 [DC17]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

A Large-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 14 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 500-700 pounds.

Big Prosauropod (Plateosaurus)
Late Triassic (215-200 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9) or claws +13 melee (1d10+6)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9); or claws +13 melee (1d10+6) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 2d6+9 [DC21]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The above stats are the largest size bipedal prosauropods commonly reached.

A big bipedal prosauropod is a Large-sized animal roughly 20 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 1500-2000 pounds.

Huge Prosauropod (Yunnanosaurus)
Early to Middle Jurassic (215-200 MYA)
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 14d8+84 (147 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12) or claws +17 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12); or claws +17 melee (2d8+8) and bite +11 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail)
Special Attacks: Trample 3d6+12 [DC27]
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +5
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +11
Feats: Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
Environment: Temperate and warm plains or forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15-21 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

This is an exceptional size for a bipedal prosauropod, such as a particularly big Plateosaurus or the largest species of Yunannosaurus. There's a distinct possibility some (or all) such animals were semi-quadrupedal, dropping on their front legs to graze but rearing up on their hind limbs to fight or run.

30 feet, 4000-7000 pounds, max about 40 feet and 6 tons?

[hamishspence]

These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.

This would give an "effective length" so to speak
(bite reach + space + tail length),

of 25 ft for a Big prosauropod, and 40 ft for a Huge one.

As it currently stands, they appear to have an effective length of 30 ft for the Big one, and 45 ft for the Huge one.

Maybe a bit much?

Remember that just because it is Large (or Huge) doesn't mean its actual body is 10 or 15 ft long- some of its tail will be inside its Space, as will some of its neck.

a 40 ft "effective fighting length" for a Huge prosauropod is still pretty hefty.

So far, on the sauropod stats, the only thing that puzzles me, is:

Originally Posted by Cleon

To create a long-necked sauropod, simply take a standard sauropod and give it a bite reach equal to its tail reach..

(because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)

and:

Originally Posted by Cleon

A Brachiosaurus has a sturdy body, with a shorter tail and longer forelegs than other sauropods. This group includes massive species that grow Gargantuan and Colossal size, such as Giraffatitan brancai. Apply the following changes to the base sauropod: +4 Strength, tail reach is twice the bite reach, Weapon Focus is in kick instead of tail.

because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.

If we went with 1.5 times the bite reach, Brachiosaurus altithorax, and maybe Giraffatitan brancai, could be Standard Gargantuan Brachiosaurs, and Sauroposeidon could be a Long-necked Gargantuan Brachiosaur (neck reach equal to tail reach- 30 ft, in this case).

Aside from those two things though- the statblocks seem like good approximations.

Splitting off Reach values from the statblocks (my suggestion) might produce more accurate lengths, but it might also be a bit of an overcomplication.

I like the megaraptor stats for Baryonyx- in fact I'd recommend renaming it that, using it as a template for "spinosaurs" and giving the actual Megaraptor its own statblock- with features such as faster speed than the average carnosaur.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.

This would give an "effective length" so to speak
(bite reach + space + tail length),

of 25 ft for a Big prosauropod, and 40 ft for a Huge one.

As it currently stands, they appear to have an effective length of 30 ft for the Big one, and 45 ft for the Huge one.

Maybe a bit much?

Yes, but that was deliberate since the Huge prosauropod was meant to be an incredibly large specimen, the Big prosauropod is meant to represent the normal upper limit.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

(because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)

I was just going to use a Diplodocids stat for the long-necked, very-long tailed slender varieties of Sauropod, even if they might not technically be close kin to Diplodocus.

and:

Originally Posted by hamishspence

because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.

Oops. Actually, I gave them bite = Space (15 ft), tail = twice base Reach (20 ft), but forgot to change the descriptive text. The stats are correct, though.

[hamishspence]

Ah, so twice the base reach, (not the bite reach), where base reach is assumed to be Short.

If Long Necked could be applied to both standard sauropods and brachiosaurs, it can be used to represent both Mamenchisaurus and Sauroposeidon.

(with Sauroposeidon as an Advanced Gargantuan Brachiosaur with the Long-necked trait added- 30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 30 ft tail)

Brachiosaurus altithorax and Giraffatitan brancai would be ordinary Gargantuan Brachiosaurs.

Applying the Long-necked trait to a diplodocid might be a bit trickier- a Gargantuan one would end up with a 60 ft neck and 60 ft tail- a bit much.

Some long-necked sauropods had necks significantly longer than their tails- Omeisaurus in particular.

[hamishspence]

On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.

This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.

In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.

Such as 40 ft long 8 ton sauropods like Saltasaurus, or Melanorosaurus.

Given that, for one of these, its body won't fill the 15 ft base, but take up a fairly small part of it in the middle (compared to an Apatosaurus, anyway) a possible set of Space and Reach values for 40 ft sauropods would be: 10 ft Bite Reach, 15 ft Space, 15 ft Tail Slap Reach.

On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.

Hence the suggested 10 ft Bite 15 ft Space 15 ft Tail Slap for the Huge one.

Plateosaurus extralargeus can be represented as having a boosted bite reach- 10 ft instead of 5 ft- thus producing a bipedal prosauropod with the same proportions as a Large Theropod with a Long Reach- 30 ft long.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.

This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.

Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.

I'll have to think about it.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.

Yes, that's one reason I'm reluctant to do too much fiddling with them to exactly fit a particular genus. So long as it's in the right ballpark I feel we're alright.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.

I tend to visualize the "Space" as the area occupied by the torso (i.e. from nape of neck to back of hip) for the more elongated dinosaurs, so the hindlegs would be a little backset from the centre, so it's not surprising we come out with different results. You're welcome to modify the space/reach for your own use.

[hamishspence]

I do also- when it comes to quadrupeds (ones at the smaller end won't reach all the way across space, but will still be "centred" with forelegs and hindlegs on either side of the Space.)

But for bipeds- I figure the "centre of mass" should be roughly above the centre of the base- which means, generally, the legs.

The result is, that roughly an equal amount of the animal's length, projects forward and rearward of the centre of mass,

but the torso is all forward of it.

Long-tailed theropods will have a little more of the tail projecting back- but still look "balanced" on a base.

Long-tailed bipedal sauropodomorphs, will be the same.

To sum up- if a T. rex was modelled as standing, with his body held horizontally, and his hind legs right at the edge of the circular base- he will look a bit off.

The same, I think, is true for a bipedal Plateosaurus or Yunnanosaurus- with its body held close to horizontal, but its arms tucked in, well off the ground.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.

I'll have to think about it.

Well I've thought about it, and it doesn't look like it's worth changing. The only difference between 200% Short Reach and 150% Long Reach for Huge to Colossal creatures is the Colossal one gets 5 feet more. Don't think I could be bothered changing it, especially as I prefer all the reaches of the Colossal Brach in nice neat 10-foot steps.

I'm going to add a note giving "Lesser Brachs" having bite & tail reaches equal to their Space.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of Sizes, you may have noticed that I have a tendency to add intermediary sized creatures (e.g. a Large animal with Str 16, a 'Big' Large animal with Str 20, and a Huge animal with Str 24), mainly because I don't think the 3E size advancements are granular enough.

I think I'd better formalize the scheme, my current plan is:

Size...........Size (Space).Str+Con
Fine...........Fine..(½ ft).-12..-2 [RAW Rules say Str -10]
Diminutive.....Dimin.(1 ft).-10..-2
Tiny...........Tiny.(2½ ft)..-8..-2
Very Small.....Tiny.(2½ ft)..-6..-2
Small..........Small.(5 ft)..-4..-2
Little.........Small.(5 ft)..-2..+0
Medium.........Medium(5 ft)..+0..+0
Big............Medium(5 ft)..+4..+2
Large..........Large(10 ft)..+8..+4
Very Large.....Large(10 ft).+12..+6
Huge...........Huge.(15 ft).+16..+8
Enormous.......Huge.(15 ft).+20.+10
Gargantuan.....Garg.(20 ft).+24.+12
Titanic........Garg.(20 ft).+28.+14 [A 25 ft Space is tempting]
Colossal.......Col..(30 ft).+32.+16
Super Colossal.Col.(40 ft?).+36.+18
EPIC!..........Col+.(50 ft).+40.+20

The sizes above Gargantuan are just for illustration, I doubt any of the remaining prehistoric beasts I stat up for this thread will have a size of Colossal, unless I decide to stat up the more exaggeratedly large estimates of some marine reptiles.

[hamishspence]

About the only dinosaur that qualifies is Amphicoelias- and then, only if you're not using "very tight space" but are willing to place a 30 ft body on a 40 ft space.

On marine reptiles- 25 metre Walking with Dinosaurs Liopleurodon could have fitted into normal Colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft bite reach, 20 ft tail slap).

Since that turned out to be a massive overestimate based on guesswork, I doubt any other marine reptile was that big.

Pliosaurus macromerus (18 m) and Hainosaurus (17 m) and Shonisaurus (21 m) are some of the biggest marine reptiles- and they fit better into Gargantuan than Colossal.

A fully grown, 110 ft long, 200+ ton blue whale however, is a better candidate for 40 ft space. Although maybe not 50 ft space.