The future of Greyhawk - PreVote Discussion

Background:

The ISRP team has already presented a definitive proposal to remove Juxta as a setting. Juxta will be replaced with the setting selected by a general consensus/vote as outlined in a previous thread.

The other piece of this ISRP area overhaul is fine tuning the Greyhawk/CRT setting. There are two proposals to do as much.

The discussion will have several pieces. The first will be to present each proposal as they stand for discussion and potential modification. The basic proposals are fairly straightforward and ideally complete. A brief amount of time will be given for comments on them, a chance for any revisions to be proposed and discussed, after which a final proposal will be presented and a vote held.

A nay vote would result in the Greyhawk setting staying relatively similar to how it is now. A yay vote would accept the designated proposal (in it's final form), and we would proceed with the additional pieces as outlined before, voting and discussion each one and any additional proposed until we have a complete and well rounded picture of the new setting.

This discussion will last at least one week, with a tentative end date of Saturday June 18th.

So without further ado:

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The Setting Restricted Proposal

The idea in mind was to create one highly flexible, high-magic, high-variety and high-tolerance setting (the Juxta replacement) which would compliment this proposal to further transform the Greyhawk setting into a more experienced, advanced freeform area with character/action restrictions, lower-magic and a generally more enforced and perhaps realistic setting environment for those wishing a more guided role-playing area.

The Skeleton Proposal (Setting Restrictions):

Core proposed restrictions:
No gods or god avatars.
No unaccompanied children under the age of 12 allowed in the Tavern.
No tech beyond fairly simple clockwork. The setting specifically forbids it.
Restrictions on animals; this means barnyard types and wild animals would not be allowed. Weres and specific animal companions, not included.
No non-Staff behind the bar or in the kitchen (Which is behind the bar )
Characters such as demons, devils, required be 'in disguise' at all times while in the tavern as on Oerth, demonkind and so forth were sent packing some years ago after traumatic wars. They would not ever show themselves openly in public. Demons are simply despised and the Neutral Ground aspect of the Tavern would be no protection for them.
Chronomancy cannot be used to bring future people or items back to the Tavern.

Other/Optional Restrictions:

Drow either be in disguise as the Demons and Devils, or allowed to be themselves *within* the tavern only.

Vampires either be in disguise or otherwise restricted in activities.

Weres be welcome in the Tavern but should be in their humanoid forms shortly after arriving up to just before departing.

Familiars be present only in the company of their masters and under their control.

Dragons be in human or human-like form while in the Tavern.

A fine or tax on the use of dangerous magic openly in the tavern. Such as slinging fireballs and so forth all about.

Limitations on slavery.

Limitations on offworld and/or unique magic.

Anything else proposed

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Secondary proposal (Open Portals):

Background:
The original CRT, near as I can tell from documentation I have inherited and my personal experiences at the time, was set in Greyhawk. The Tavern was blessed/cursed with a door that was truly a portal, opening to any time and any place at random. Guests who found themselves there could return home through another portal door. This allowed a wide variety of characters from any setting or genre to find their way to the Tavern. Now this is considerably more accomodating than the current setting in that literally any character could arrive in the tavern, including Jedi Knights, Cavemen, Cyborgs and Modern Day characters.

The Proposal
To return the CRT to it's roots. CRT would remain set in the realm of Greyhawk that it currently resides. The portal doors would re-activate and that area of Greyhawk would find itself experiencing an influx of new and strange people. Siani, as an accomodating tavern owner, would agree that these visitors would be able to make use of her Tavern and it's surrounding grounds on the terms that they obeyed her simple tavern rules, and did not interfere in the surrounding countryside. Visitors leaving the Tavern grounds would be subject to extreme hostility and quarantine from local law enforcement, and Siani would not guarantee their safety or acceptance, nor would she be liable for any personal or physical property damage incurred as a result. Visitors refusing to accept the simple tavern rules may find themselves hocked back through the portal they came (to what degree enforced to be determined by the options below - under Overall Summary).

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Query: How do we uphold setting restrictions without getting terribly complicated.

Suggestion: A non CoC variation of Room Disruption; we might refer to it as Setting Disruption. It would carry the same Three Strikes as any CoC warning, but in this case, the *character*, not the player, would wind up barred from the room. Please remember this would not be a disciplinary action, but a role-playing restriction. However, any player that displays intentional disregard for the Setting with the intent of inciting Room Disruption would be subject to the CoC category of Room Disruption and may receive a subsequent CoC based official warning and/or CoC discipline for their disruptive actions.. We don't want to penalize a *player* for Setting Disruption unless forced by that player to do so. Generally speaking, we would work on the philosophy that everyone has a right to be there and understands the Setting and Room guidelines until they prove otherwise past the point of doubt.

Additional discussion point to consider: Should patrons be able to be significant people in the setting? That is, major members of the Town and so on. Can they work for the Tavern in some way? Guidelines may be created to assist this. Examples to consider would be: no official CoC warnings against the username, passed a Setting quiz, has 0-1 setting based disruption warnings. Also, priviliges could be revoked based on receiving either Setting Disruption warnings/reminders or Official CoC warnings/reminders as deemed appropriate. Significant characters could likewise be limited to non-law enforcement or other specific character types to prevent specific abuse concerns.

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Overall Summary of how a vote might look:

Option A: Leave Greyhawk as it is.
Option B: Accept the Setting Restricted proposal (with mini-votes to determine which restrictions are set)
Option C: Accept the Open Portals proposal
Option D: Accept the Open Portals proposal and several restrictions to characters/actions ( mini-votes to determine which restrictions are set. Examples of suggested restrictions would include children and animal limitations.)

Well, like I said over on the Juxta thread, the fate of the tavern is large dependant on what becomes the new setting. I honestly can't says one way or another until that is decided. So, I'll make some choices based on assumptions.

Assumption 1: Eberron/Forgotten Realms wins as new setting, the staff places the new market in Waterdeep.

If this were the case, my vote would be option D.

Assumption 2: Sigil (or on a longshot Union) wins as the new setting.

Option B here.

Assumption 3: Eberron/Forgotten Realms wins as the new setting, but the staff places it somewhere "unnatural". Such as, Dark Calimport, Skullport, or even Thay (it could be a magical oddity).

Option B again.

So, for me, the fate of the tavern is entirely based on what the vote turns out for the new rooms. Of them all, I would like Option B to come to pass, but I understand that the tavern can more easily become the free-for-all setting with the least amound of effort.

As for you suggestion to uphold the restrictions, it's just fine with me. An actual in-character penalty for breaking the laws/rules would be nice for once.

Originally Posted by Nevine

An actual in-character penalty for breaking the laws/rules would be nice for once.

It's about time.

And with the new chat, and how it utilizes our boards user names for our characters, it will be easy to use the board to give/show penalties (if desired).

My vote will be for Options B and D. Though some additions to the restrictions might be necessary depending on the setting.

For instance, the Red Wizards of Thay and the Zhentarim are pretty organized...but their presence generally requires disguise in certain areas in order to avoid detection/arouse suspicion.

I agree. B or D seem to be the best options. I -do- think that, especially with the tavern being in Greyhawk, and the multiple times I've been reminded of the vast difference between Greyhawk (which I'm less accustomed to but learning) and FR (which was the setting I was introduced to DnD with and thus am more familiar with though no expert on by a long shot...), I think it would be more fitting to have the tavern as the more strict setting of the two.

Example, and this is the first one that comes to mind so don't shoot me :P

Drow:
Greyhawk - Killed on sight, no questions asked, and not welcome whatsoever
Forgotten Realms - Well, we have Drizzt and the followers of Eilistraee, so while they may not be totally 100% accepted...need I say more?

The point is that Greyhawk is naturally the more restrictive of not only it vs FR, but of most if not all the settings being examined, so therefore the option to make it more restricted (B) and thus bring it back to its roots seems more viable to me.

My :twocents:
-Draggy

Unless hosted hours are going to be increased to twenty-four hours a day, I would say option C.

Without the extra hosting, any attempt to stymid creativity (any setting restriction limits creativity to one degree or another) will be summarily ignored. Like the mercurial skies of Juxta, or the withering death, or the sonic attack, or the fact that large creatures die quicker.

With the extra hours, I would love to see B.

I'm gonna hop on the bandwagon here and agree with the suggestions above:

• I like the idea of option B, but only if these things are actually cracked down upon hard so they become habit, rather than an only-during-hosted-hours things. I.E surface elves not turning the other cheek when drow elves walk in in plain view and such.

• However, if the new setting isn't as open and free-for-all as a place such as Sigil then I'd like to see option D instead. I just don't see devils and demons and celestials all wandering around together on Faerun, but in the CRT it seems like it could be plausible. EDIT: But only in the CRT itself. Anywhere outside the tavern, it just wouldn't happen. Locals would come beating down Siani's doors if they knew that she was allowing nasty creatures into her house. :P

I would love to see option B, not only does it actually fit the stricter setting, but it would also inspire better and more creative roleplay. After all, villains would have to become really, really sneaky instead of the out right, "Hey look at me, I'm evil!" that we see so much. Anyone that isn't 'normal' would have to be very secretive about it. Could you imagine the possibilites for gossip?

Vampires would have to to pretend to eat and drink and make their skin seem warm in order to go un noticed, stealing their victims in the quiet hours and leaving no witnesses.. and so on. Could be fun.

Originally Posted by Rhane Arturant

I would love to see option B, not only does it actually fit the stricter setting, but it would also inspire better and more creative roleplay. After all, villains would have to become really, really sneaky instead of the out right, "Hey look at me, I'm evil!" that we see so much. Anyone that isn't 'normal' would have to be very secretive about it. Could you imagine the possibilites for gossip?

Vampires would have to to pretend to eat and drink and make their skin seem warm in order to go un noticed, stealing their victims in the quiet hours and leaving no witnesses.. and so on. Could be fun.

Whoo-hoo to that!

I'm in full agreement with Nevine on this. It depends too much on what the second 'traditional' fantasy setting will be to decide on a definite answer at the moment.

If the second room becomes Sigil based (and I hope it will), then the tavern becoming the more restricted setting would be optimal. Being on a Prime world with the second option being a planar metropolis, the closed-in setting would work more easily and with less displacement of the established characters as they could still feasably be played despite the change.

If the second room is Abier-Toril based (which I hope it isn't :P ), then I think the tavern should gain the open-setting option simply because many characters would refuse to enter Torilspace, or even know enough of it to find their way there. Having the open setting in the familiar tavern would provide those characters with a chance to still be played.

Well.. I imagine thise vote, will be based a good deal, on what the outcome of the new room to replace Juxtaposition will be.

Just as everyone else has said..

so.. yeah..

well B COULD be fun.... but as most people know... I play a slave character, she's friendly, happy, and polite... I don't see any problems with her. but there ARE some people that like playing the more traditional kind, few and far between, but you'd basically be telling them their characters are not welcomed. so people they have grown accustomed to playing with that go into CRT either would have to leave to go to the other room, or stay there and make the other character come to them against the "law" of the land and eventually get forced out and not be allowed in ever... so I have to say depending on what the outcome of the "limitations on slavery" is before I agree to it.. so for now I'm going with a limited D vote.

I don't want any more jedi, robots, trenchcoat and sunglasses wearing gunslingers, or anything of the sort. but open portals to Forgotten Realms, Birthright, and other such settings that have nothing to DO with the future should be allowed.

I think B would be great. I think the eccentricity of characters would reach a different level where you can never be sure exactly what/who you're talking to. That's a highly volatile environment with much opportunity for mysteries and plots...which ya hardly ever see anymore (Least I dont get to see them *sniffles*). It'll be good to have to think again, instead of running around with the toughest char picking fights! I'm up for more knives in the backs and poison!

Vampires would have to to pretend to eat and drink and make their skin seem warm in order to go un noticed, stealing their victims in the quiet hours and leaving no witnesses.. and so on. Could be fun.

Would vampires really have to heat their skin? Or could they possibly deal with not touching peoples? How can you know something's cold unless you feel it?

First off, this new chat system does not appeal to me at all. Second off, what's with all the ristrictions on characters? If these are voted on, most... well ALL of my chars will be limited, and I won't sit around for that. I have many characters with good storylines in progress on this site, and these limitations are frankly annoying. I'm becoming very disappointed by the decisions made by WotC staff. I have spoken to many of my RP buddies and alot said they will drop out if this goes through. Hmmm, where is the fun in that? People RP to make their own characters special and different, putting restrictions on that will cripple a player and to tell the truth the thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. I have tried multiple times to log into the new chat and have been unsuccesfull getting a message saying: "The chat is not availible at this time." when most of my friends are on it at the exact same time. This is just so disappointing. I believe everyone should put more thought into this.

okay... first off, this is not the place to be having a discussion like this, the boards are indeed related to wotc's ISRP and yet not everyone who comes to the site to chat even knows about the bloody boards even existing, I only caught on after several several months of rp and even then I was hesitant due to all the posts that were on here allready. You are not announcing theise proposals to anywhere near 100% of the audience that will be affected by the changes!!!!

Aside from that,
I think that if you've built yourself a good story and a good hero to follow through with that story it should not matter the people that she or he meets along the journey of that story. I have not once seen a dicebot used in the clearing or the arena for that matter, so don't you come at me with this by the rules and this is how it is in the world garbage. Each plane of existance is different, and thus the rules apply differently to those on that plane. Gods for some worlds are not all knowing and all seeing, sometimes they are just normal people elevated to something beyond the comprehention of the people there.

I'll admit it, I play a god who visits the tavern quite often, but as the rules indicate quite fairly she has no real power on the plane of greyhawk aside from things she can memorize. Perhaps the rules need to be read more clearly instead on trampling over people's free creativities. Any time you put a restriction on something, on even one person's voice we all suffer.... granted Star Trek Insurection was a terrible movie I think that line is a very powerfull one and I think that it's a point that is being overlooked when making theise restrictions on what we can and can't play as.

I'm off to read what happened to Juxta because I had no say in that decision either. I wouldn't even know about something happening to the site if it wasn't for a friend telling me that something was up and I should check out the boards (thanks monica).

Wizzy has been a fun place for me for the 5 years I've known her, I hope that theise don't pass or I may be forced to part ways with her along with many other people that I've met through her. We would all be sad to part too.

I would hope for option A
but if that is impossible I beleive b is in order.

Originally Posted by Lain Ikari

First off, this new chat system does not appeal to me at all.

This isn't the place for discussing the new chat, the ISRP moderation team has nothing to do with the change, so there isn't any point in presenting discontent to them. The new chat software is happening, period.

Anyway..

There is a reason there will be two rooms, hopefully one of the two will allow you the "freedom" of charater design that you desire after the votes are in. Some people prefer to have a more restrictive or "traditional fantasy" setting as opposed to "anything goes". It doesn't stifle creativty to have restrictions that are based on setting and environment. Actually, I like to call it a word known as "logic".

Originally Posted by Cirra

I'm off to read what happened to Juxta because I had no say in that decision either.

We all had a say in what happened to Juxta. That say was hardly ever using the room and heavily favoring the tavern. Juxta needs to replaced with something that people will actually use. And you have say on that replacement, you mouse pointer need only venture here.

In closing, it looks as if either Planescape or the Forgotten Realms will emerge as the new setting. Either one will allow you both the creative freedom you want. No one's imagination is being trampled.

As for the people not knowing about the boards, that will quickly change with the new chat rooms, since they are linked together. Voting will still be going on when they go live, so everyone will have the chance to speak out/vote or blow things out of proportion.

Threatening/promising to leave won't keep things the way they are, or influence decision. We, the patrons, get to vote on all these changes. So, vote.

Okay, let me see what this is:

Restricted from CRT completely:
gods, god avatars, children under 12 without an adult, non-intelligent animals

Must be "disguised":
demons, devils

Still under discussion and eventual vote for being "disguised" and/or in human form:
vampires, weres, dragons, drow

Alright, this PROPOSAL (not yet adopted, not even yet up for vote, and will be voted on and not imposed arbitrarily) might effect exactly two of my twenty characters, just because they're drow. And those two would be happy to go to the ex-Juxta room instead to play. If ALL of your characters are affected, maybe you should reconsider how you design your characters even if this doesn't pass.

I'm a reasonable human being and I freely admit when I'm wrong.
First, I understand this is not my site, The owners or whomever in charge should be alowed to change whatever they like because it is a free service that I'm merely partakeing in.

There were several things I was unaware of. I stand corrected in the fact that things may not be as terrible as I presumed, I'm used to threads involving discussions that pit fairness against creativity all too often. It was wrong of me to assume that about this.
My gut reaction blended disguiseing and banning into the same thing. which led me to, yes indeed, blow things out of proportion. I'm sorry for that too.
I was also unaware about getting a vote for myself... I thought I needed to convince some representitive who would vote for me.

I must stand by my conviction that most of people are still unaware of the changes to come and there will be many more people less reasonable than I who will blow their tops come the day of forced change.

I must admit though that I get the sense that someone up the ladder is on some kind of power trip trying to enforce brand new laws and make things change for the better. I hope I am wrong in this too.

I suppose I should end with something positive eh?
I must admit that in the past the difference between the tavern and the emporium has been non-existant... if it is indeed true what you say, nevine, and there are restrictions in one and not the other I think it would be a change for the better.

I didn't say it was the place to discuss the new chat, ya? :P Just decided to throw it in...period. :rolleyes: Anyhow, the vote doesn't interest me, as in myself. Just expressing my opinion. Everyone has their feelings towards this, as do I. And mine seem to be all negative. :P I have been RPing on here for a year and a half, I like it here and wish to stay... but hopefully Option A or if that isn't possible Option B will be chosen, if not then I won't be able to stay. I will just feel too limited. Not sure how it will turn out if we do vote, hope for the best but expect the worst. And, I think I will keep my characters as so, and not take the option of rethinking my creations. I like them just the way they are, and so do many other players. So, I guess that means there is no problem with them, it has to be something else. And if at all possible, I will go to another room to play as them as long as I do not have to force them to shroud themselves in mystery, hopefully there will be some rooms where demons are excepted. If not, then pooey, I will have to use another char. If so, then yay. But my main char is hald demon, and is currently in a crisis time of her story. So, you can understand how I feel, that is if you have feelings yourself. I will do like Cirra and end this on a good note: Thanks for trying to make the chat a better place. It is a good idea, though... Nevermind, good job WotC. Like the concept.

Lain_Ikari - As others have said, this is not the thread to discuss the chat software; you are welcome to do so on the appropriate thread. Please also keep in mind that the software is not complete yet. There is a long list of changes and fixes for the ISRP side of the software and the technicians have not started implementing them yet. Things may look and feel drastically different once those are done.

On the topic of this thread, I'd like to point out that the WizO's nor WoTC's are insisting on these changes. While the WizO staff, largely myself as ISRP lead, has decreed there will be changes we have not set in stone what they will be and are leaving the choices up to the patrons. They are being voted on, by the patrons. These discussions are being held to determine what should be on the vote, what should be considered. So if something wins the vote it will be because a majority of patrons have decreed it is what they want. This is also the reason I have pushed so strongly for two settings, with the idea that one would be less restrictive so that should these restrictive changes go through there is still somewhere for those of the other mind to play. In other words, judging by everything I've seen in this thread and the other and the vote so far I think there will be a place for everyone, and that's exactly what I hoped for.


Cirra - I do not know how else to spread these changes. There is a discussion list for ISRP, ISRP-L that this has been announced on. I have made shouts on the chat site, WizO's have spread the word on their shifts, and I have posted it on the boards. I would GLADLY hear any suggestions you have for getting this information out there more. I am always interested in hearing from a larger audience.

I would be the person on the power trip and I assure you I don't feel all too powerful. I've explained the need behind the change for Juxta and I thought I had explained the desire behind the change for Greyhawk and it is not out of a power trip. I do feel there is a large percentage of patrons that would enjoy having the option to role-play in a more low to medium power level, realistic setting. And no one is going to be automatically booted out. It's all in how you play your characters (and what items are selected, every one of them will be up for vote, just some of them make the core of the proposal and some we considered more negotiable. It's not all or nothing) over a period of time. WizO's will be providing feedback and there will be many chances to learn the rules. This is an attempt to have rules and expect they be followed, but also to allow the majority to work on the honor system.

Let's just hope it turns out for the best.

I'm sure it'll turn out fine. What, with all the wonderful wizo's on side how could it not? I mean, realistically we're gonna end up with both sides of a great bargain. Sure there'll be a few glitches...but nothing that we cant smooth out!