One thing to keep in mind is that a Two-Blade ranger gets a class feature that you can't duplicate any other way, while an Archer ranger gets a free feat. Whoop-de-whoo. So a Beastmaster ranger with a sword is not as good with melee ranger powers as a Two-Blade ranger is, but a Beastmaster ranger with a bow is just as good with it as an Archer ranger, he just has one less feat.
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Originally Posted by Atanatotatos
ooc
Really? You want to give it back? Lol!
Not really. You lose prime shot, too, and looking forward, the ability to enter the almighty battlefield archer paragon path. That hurts. Well, it is true you lose less as an archer, though.
Uhmm. Well, in general, I'd say they're more or less equal. In your case, since you want to keep Erlai, archery is definitely looking better. Raptors are great for archer rangers.
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Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles
OOC
No you don't - all rangers get prime shot, it's just useless to them if they don't actually use ranged weapons. But a Two-Blade ranger who picks up a bow still gets the Prime Shot bonus.
I hadn't thought about paragon paths have "archer" as a prerequisite, though. In general I guess that makes a difference. Not for Finnian, who's already decided to be a Beastmaster, though.
EDIT: sorry, I was typing this while you posted. I figured you were ok with the discussion in this thread.
I wanted to move the discussion, because discussing character options can fill up a lot of the thread. Want to keep the narrative separate.
I think the real issue is whether or not you want to keep Finnian as a Beastmaster. If you keep Erlai, archer is a better fit. If you dump Erlai, you dump a part of your character's story.
Granted, it can happen 'in-story' because Erlai would fade from existence as part of the Origami Rat Event (O.R.E.). Finnian wouldn't remember Erlai, but everyone else would.
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The second issue is which you enjoy more: the role-playing or having a combat-effective character. If part of the roleplaying aspect of Finnian is that he is functionally incompetent in several areas and you build his stats to represent this, you have to accept the mechanical results of this decision.
If having a character who is good in a fight because of his archery skills conflicts with the 'gee-whiz farm boy' naivete you want to create--well, you've got to figure out if Finnian's story is flexible enough to support him being good at something.
So, the question: Is it less fun when Finnian doesn't do well in a fight?
If the answer is yes, then you need to make the choice that will increase your enjoyment.
I had a friend who always had great ideas for character back-stories, personalities, and so forth. We were playing in a point-based system (ala GURPS), and he spent most of his points on beer-brewing skills for his character, because his back-story involved him being part of the family business before becoming an adventurer. When we'd get into fights, his character was next to useless. He got so frustrated, he'd start screaming and throwing dice and even went so far as to accuse me of favoritism towards the other players, because they fought better. He'd hate playing.
He loved his characters at initial creation. Spent hours coming up with all their foibles and traits, but he never enjoyed playing them for more than a couple of sessions before he'd get so angry at their limitations that he hated them. (I remember he got upset that his paranoid-schizophrenic character wouldn't act like a normal person.)
You've got to make a character that's fun to role-play and game-play.
Last edited by KenHood; 25th June 2009 at 08:23 AM..
Uhm, right, sorry for the derailing. Anyway, yes, beast masters do lose prime shot. Read the beginning of the beast mastery class feature paragraph in Martial Power.
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Ah, you're right, I forgot about that. Ok, so the choices are:
Archer ranger: bonus Defensive Mobility feat, can use a missile weapon (with Prime Shot) or a regular+off-hand weapon with multi-attack powers, can't use beast powers
Two-Weapon ranger: bonus Toughness feat, can use a missile weapon (with Prime Shot) or two regular weapons with multi-attack powers, can't use beast powers
Beastmaster ranger: can use a missile weapon (no Prime Shot) or a regular+off-hand weapon with multi-attack powers, can use beast powers
If your animal doesn't use Strength as its primary attack trait, it gets hosed on the powers. (In the end, it's more effective just making a basic attack.)
And your beast cannot attack independent of your character--which has good mechanical reasons, but not good logical or suspension-of-disbelief reasons.
The only real benefit of the beast is the flanking, providing a +2 bonus to your character's attack--but don't you need to some feat to gain the benefit of flanking with ranged weapons? (Otherwise, you have to be adjacent to your enemy and provoke opportunity attacks each time you fire your bow.)
It can also flank for other characters. And you can declare your Hunter's Quarry on the closest target to either yourself or the beast, which is a bonus for an archer ranger who can hang back and let the beast jockey for position.
I think the real issue is whether or not you want to keep Finnian as a Beastmaster. If you keep Erlai, archer is a better fit. If you dump Erlai, you dump a part of your character's story.
I'm committed to Beastmaster. I like this story where the kid gets along better with his animal companion than real people, but slowly learns to find friends among the other adventurers. The story arc would work better in a traditional campaign rather than a living world where he may not be with the same party members again, but still...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHood
Granted, it can happen 'in-story' because Erlai would fade from existence as part of the Origami Rat Event (O.R.E.). Finnian wouldn't remember Erlai, but everyone else would.
O.R.E. - I love it! LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHood
The second issue is which you enjoy more: the role-playing or having a combat-effective character.
So, the question: Is it less fun when Finnian doesn't do well in a fight?
I guess I'm looking for balance. If I wanted to min/max, I would pick a different race to start. I just want to make sure I have a role in the party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHood
I had a friend who always had great ideas for character back-stories, personalities, and so forth. We were playing in a point-based system (ala GURPS), and he spent most of his points on beer-brewing skills for his character, because his back-story involved him being part of the family business before becoming an adventurer. When we'd get into fights, his character was next to useless. He got so frustrated, he'd start screaming and throwing dice and even went so far as to accuse me of favoritism towards the other players, because they fought better. He'd hate playing.
He loved his characters at initial creation. Spent hours coming up with all their foibles and traits, but he never enjoyed playing them for more than a couple of sessions before he'd get so angry at their limitations that he hated them. (I remember he got upset that his paranoid-schizophrenic character wouldn't act like a normal person.)
I don't want to be like that. I've actually found it a fun challenge to write the narrative for fumbles, and Finnian has had a few. But I'd like to establish a character that other people want to have in their party, and not just because I sometimes go off and write stupid amounts of pointless dialogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHood
You've got to make a character that's fun to role-play and game-play.
Yes, that's the goal. I think the character is fine (although, I need to make sure I don't go off like I did the other day too often. Don't want to make it less fun for anyone else to role-play by stealing the scene with pointless dialgoue that derails the story).
I think I just need to work on the mechanics a bit so I better understand the striker role in a fight.
You may get two attacks, but you do not add any ability bonuses to damage.
Assume a +4 bonus to an attack and a longbow (1d8 damage)...
If you make a ranged basic attack and hit. You inflict an average of 8.5 points of damage, with a minimum of 5 and maximum of 12. You only make one attack roll and have a 50% chance of success. You have a 5% chance of achieving maximum damage (critical hit).
With Twin Strike, assuming you are attacking an opponent of equal level, you have only a 50% chance of hitting. When you shoot twice, you have the following probabilities...
25% of the time you miss
50% of the time you hit with only one attack, inflicting 1d8 damage or an average of 4.5 points of damage per attack
25% of the time you hit with both attacks, inflicting 2d8 damage or an average of 9 points of damage -- but your minimum damage is 2 and your maximum is 16.
To achieve maximum damage, you must either roll critical hits on BOTH attacks (1 in 400 chance) or hit with both attacks and roll '8' on the dice (1 in 256, I believe).
The advantage to Twin Strike is that you will hit more often than with a basic attack--but only by virtue of attacking more often. However, your overall damage output will be lower, and your chance of maximum damage (even though it is 4 points higher) is extremely low.
Last edited by KenHood; 25th June 2009 at 09:40 AM..
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Please excuse my poor English. It is not my first language.
It's got the highest maximum output, but it's average output leaves a lot to be desired. Also, your chance of maximum output is lower than that of a single strike.
Over time, the damage output of a basic attack and a Twin Strike come out to about the same. But in most scenarios, you'll use the power four or five times at most.
If you attacked 100 times with a basic strike: 50 will hit, 5 of those that hit inflict maximum damage. So, 45 x 8.5 + 5 x 12. For a total output of 442.5 points of damage.
If you used Twin Strike 100 times: 75 will hit, 25 of those will hit twice. So 45 x 4.5 and 25 x 9. For a total output of 427.5 points of damage.
It comes out to just about the same thing.
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Twin Strike does have advantage against minions, because you can take out two of them 25% of the time.
If both attacks in a Twin Strike did hit and inflict maximum damage, you would inflict 4 additional points of damage--not a huge amount.
So, my conclusion that it's not that great a power. It's just a little better than a standard attack.
It does become more beneficial if you have a magic ranged weapon or some effect enables you to gain a constant damage bonus against your target. In that instance, you can apply that bonus twice, 25% of the time.
Last edited by KenHood; 25th June 2009 at 09:41 AM..
How so? What you're losing is just your strenght (or dexterity) score in damage; you still get to pile up every other kind of bonus. And since your accuracy is higher (because you roll two attacks), you have more chances to deal quarry damage, which makes up for the loss of the Str modifier. Also, the more your chance to hit goes up, the more chances you have to hit twice. The more your chances to hit go down, the more you benefit from the added accuracy.
At low levels there are better at-wills, but as soon as you start getting some item and feat bonus in there, Twin strike (and dual strike) come out on top.
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You forget: The mechanics of the game ensure that your enhancements to attack rolls increase with your level, keeping it about 50% (or lower) if you're fighting opponents of appropriate power.
Well, then what happens when your friendly neighborhood tactlord is constantly flanking with you and occassionally dropping a +5 to hit for a round on top of it?
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Please excuse my poor English. It is not my first language.
I've seen that Balth pretty consistently hits with 1 of his 2 Twin Strike rolls and adds the Hunter's Quarry damage to the hit - that's 50% more Hunter's Quarry damage than he would be doing with a single attack.
Balth is a little twinkified, you have to remember. 20 Dex, 18 Wis, and 10's everywhere else
But still, Twin Strike does give you more chance of HQ damage. Especially good if you have that feat that bumps up the damage die to a d8. And as soon as you get a few static damage bonuses, a multi-attack power has better expected damage than a single attack power - that's just a fact of the math.
Also, Ken, you're forgetting that a longbow does 1d10 damage in 4e
I've been reading thread after thread in the DnD 4E Character Optimization forums trying to figure out 4E combat. Generally, I think I can balance what I give up with the pure damage powers from the TBF or Archer styles by gaining a tactical advantage with the companion flanking, setting Hunter's Quarry, etc. So I'm good with Beastmaster.
The archery route seems pretty straight forward. Get Twin Strike, Distant Advantage, Beast Protector, and go to town.
I'm trying to think through a melee build, so help me out...
18 Str, 16 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha for a net result of 18, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10 (after half-elf bonuses).
I considered boosting Wisdom, but the # of powers with damage modifiers based on Wis seems low. I think I'd rather have the AC and the chance to hit with a ranged attack when needed, although perception is a big deal.
So now I'm looking for powers that deal damage and/or let me move or shift to maintain CA or get OA if they try to move. The raptor's role becomes blocker or flanker and I become a tactician in battle to move around so I can hit with Twin Strike as often as possible. Off-hand Strike is in there just for an extra attack each encounter.
Beast Protector
Twin Strike
Circling Strike (maybe Hit & Run?)
Wolf Pack Tactics (dilettante extra power)
Driving the Quarry
Off-hand Strike
Take it from someone who did it: a 16 in Str is doable if you use swords. You end up with a +6 attack bonus, which is the same as an 18 Str character with an axe, you just do a little less damage. I mean, it's obviously not as good as 18 Str for attacking, but a little balance never hurt anyone, especially when it keeps you alive.
More hp will definitely help in melee though, and you probably want your defenses as high as possible as well. To that end, dropping a couple points in Wis could benefit him, though AC and Ref are (I think) the most commonly attacked defenses.
Edit: I knew there was something else I wanted to say, and this is it. You don't need a high Dex for a good ranged attack, unless you really want to use a bow. Get yourself some javelins, or a different heavy thrown weapon, and then basic ranged attacks with them and Str based. Though I guess if you wanted to use Twin Strike ranged you need Dex, but that's a different story.
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