About how to actually accomplish giving more treasure, I have two ideas.
First, time gold. Part of the problem with the disparity between XP and treasure awards is that DMs are constantly forgetting to factor in time XP in their treasure plans. Also, time XP isn't easily predictable in advance, and DMs also consistently underestimate how long their game is going to take in calendar time. But DMs are pretty good at calculating treasure packets for the actual encounters in their games. So, if were were to award gold along with XP for calendar time spent adventuring, it would go a long way towards fixing the balance. Time xp is basically 1/12 of a level per calendar month, so we could calculate time gold that way, too. E.g., the difference in expected wealth between level 10 and 11 is 19900g, so each month of play for a level 10 character would earn them 1658.33g. We'd have to adjust a bit at low levels, since the curve gets strange there, but it's doable.
Thematically, the idea is that, contrary to appearances, adventurers don't spend their downtime between adventures just sitting on their butts drinking, they do odd jobs. Cleaning rats out of the cellar, cleaning skeletons out of old tombs, cleaning excess gold out of unwary merchants' purses, threatening small children for their lunch money; that sort of thing. For this, they get a steady trickle of xp -- and gold. Time XP is an imperfect model of this sort of thing, but... *shrug*.
There seems to be a bit of consensus that this is a good idea, so we might as well look at adopting it officially.
Now, the main question before a proposal is formally written is how to determine the increase in wealth a character is supposed to experience over the course of a level, so that we can determine how much time gold is given per month.
I'm personally a fan of ignoring magic items and just looking at the monetary parcels for a level, and leaving the main magic item dispensation to DMs. However, there are other ways we can do this, and I know not everyone is a fan of ignoring the magic item parcels. Discuss.
There are basically two ways to calculate the expected wealth of a character at a given level. One is to calculate the expected treasure found through each level according to the DMG parcels, the second is to calculate the wealth possessed by a new character created at a higher level (adding the value of the level n+1, n, and n-1 magic items and gold equal to an item level n-1).I think the better of these to use for time gold is the former, since it shows what the PC could have expected to gain from adventuring for their time XP.
Next, assuming we use the expected parcel income over a level, if we include the wealth gained from magic items found as loot then DMs have to be more careful handing out magic items. For example, if their adventure awards 500 XP plus 500 time XP to a level 1 party, that's a whole level. However, what does he do for magic items? If he just looks at the XP awarded from his adventure, he should only give out half a level's worth of items, ie two. Yet each character will get the same amount of time XP, so this puts the two who get items a good deal ahead of the others.
For that reason, I think it would be better to calculate time gold on the basis of only the monetary parcels, excluding the magic item parcels.
Last idea: whichever way we go about doing this, I think it would be good to allow DMs to award magic items as part of the time gold for a character, if their time gold value was high enough. For example, if a character was to get 700 gp for their time gold (just a number pulled out of nowhere), then the DM could instead award them a level 2 item (worth 520 gp) plus 180 gp. Since time XP is awarded at the end of an adventure I assume we're doing the same with time gold, so it's still sort of in the hands of the DM.
For that reason, I think it would be better to calculate time gold on the basis of only the monetary parcels, excluding the magic item parcels.
But, the PCs are not getting any additional magic items for this time; nor are DMs spending credits. I single character in a 5 person party should expect 1 item 3 every 4 levels of in range of n+1 to n+8 during that period. I think this should be accounted for somehow. As I suggested previously, GP with time (and DM credits) is good. I might take the monetary treasure and the gp value of one level n+1 or n+2 item to account for item discrepancy especially in the case of DM credits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Sessadore
Since time XP is awarded at the end of an adventure I assume we're doing the same with time gold, so it's still sort of in the hands of the DM.
Time isn't always given at the end; its been given partially before (such as when earned XP + current time XP = a new level). Handing out an item instead of gold is fine if the PC wants.
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
But, the PCs are not getting any additional magic items for this time; nor are DMs spending credits. I single character in a 5 person party should expect 1 item 3 every 4 levels of in range of n+1 to n+8 during that period. I think this should be accounted for somehow. As I suggested previously, GP with time (and DM credits) is good. I might take the monetary treasure and the gp value of one level n+1 or n+2 item to account for item discrepancy especially in the case of DM credits.
Hmm ... good points. I had forgotten about the DM credits factor, so I suppose it would be better to account for magic items as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegod
Time isn't always given at the end; its been given partially before (such as when earned XP + current time XP = a new level). Handing out an item instead of gold is fine if the PC wants.
Right, and at that point it's clearly still within the adventure, and in the hands of the DM (in my opinion).
Especially if time gold is meant to account for the items a character would usually get, I think it should almost be a best practice that DMs give items as part of a character's time gold.
I've been hoping that someone would go through and actually calculate the expected wealth by level, by adding up suggested treasure parcel value and dividing by 5. Doing the same for just monetary treasure parcels would be helpful, too. I'd like to be able to say that I'll do it myself, but it's not exactly my top priority just now.
Anyway, part of the reason we're talking about time gold in the first place is that DMs pretty consistently forget to take time XP into account when calculating treasure. If we have time gold only account for monetary treasure, then DMs still have to remember to give extra magic items, and that leaves the problem unsolved.
Actually, I think the levels in cov's post are one too high. If a character is expected to gain 752 gp by the time they hit level 2, then it would be 63 gp/month for level 1, not level 2. So it should look like this:
Level 1: 63 gp/month including items, 12 gp/month if we don't.
Level 2: 89 gp/month, or 17 gp/month.
Level 3: 127 gp/month, or 23 gp/month.
So, if we include magic item value with time gold, Hrav should get 127 gp for each DM credit you spent, for a total of 127 x 9 = 1143 gp. Wowzers!
Actually, I think the levels in cov's post are one too high. If a character is expected to gain 752 gp by the time they hit level 2, then it would be 63 gp/month for level 1, not level 2. So it should look like this:
Level 1: 63 gp/month including items, 12 gp/month if we don't.
Level 2: 89 gp/month, or 17 gp/month.
Level 3: 127 gp/month, or 23 gp/month.
So, if we include magic item value with time gold, Hrav should get 127 gp for each DM credit you spent, for a total of 127 x 9 = 1143 gp. Wowzers!
Okay. Well, then...
I vote Yes!
__________________ Gary Hoggatt - www.garyh.net "Such heroic nonsense..."
Thinking about this a bit more, here's a comparison...
Hrav is level 4. If he was made at level 4 to start, he'd have items of levels 5, 4, and 3, and the GP of a level 3 item (680 GP).
He, in fact, has items of levels 5 and 4, and 381 GP. So, converting that missing level 3 recommended item to gold, he should have 5 and 4, and 1,360 GP, and is short 979 GP.
If he was awarded the Time XP GP amount LS calculated, 1,143 GP, he'd have items 5 and 4, and 1,524 GP.
That actually works out REALLY close to the recommended amount of treasure!
__________________ Gary Hoggatt - www.garyh.net "Such heroic nonsense..."
Oh, I just realized that what I calculated was the expected wealth gain from one level to the next, not total wealth. So on average a 3rd level character would have 1824 gp worth of assets.
It might be easier to simply acquire wealth equal to the difference of your current wealth to that of your expected wealth once or twice per level at the players choosing.
That way players don't have to worry about being left out of treasure parcels and DM's don't have to worry as much about the individual wealth levels.
Alternately, you could ditch DM loot all together and simply allocate each player a number of treasure parcels per level with set values. Then, any time the DM has an encounter with parcels he simply allows players to choose from their list. This would make it much easier to plan items and might lead to a bit of homogeny, but otherwise solves the rest of the issues.
Neither of these options address the issue of time based rewards: While the XP the DM planned to give is fixed, time varies (it may take 1 or 3 months). Spending DM points also causes this level/treasure disparity.
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
Neither of these options address the issue of time based rewards: While the XP the DM planned to give is fixed, time varies (it may take 1 or 3 months). Spending DM points also causes this level/treasure disparity.
How so? The main problem is that there is a difference between experience and item wealth when leveling comes from methods other than DM granted experience.
The problem with a flat reward is that it is required over the course of a level that some people gain more wealth than others, DM's would have to know the wealth levels of all players across their campaigns in order to fix this with a flat mechanic, more work for the DMs.
So why not simply let the player bridge the distance between what they have and what they ought to have? How does that not address the situation?
The time gold reward wouldn't need any fiddling by DMs - that's the point. When you give your characters time XP, you look at the time gold table and give them extra gold comensurate to that. We're not expecting DMs to roll the time gold into their adventure loot (though doing so is fine, in my opinion); it just happens automatically. The point is to take that consideration off the mind of the DM.
Also, this flat gold bonus is to be calculated in such a way that it accounts for the character's level. You look at the character's level, how many calendar months of play you're rewarding them for, do one multiplication, and you're done. No fiddling, and no extra work for the players trying to come up with appropriate treasure parcels, which would need to be approved by either the DM or the judge or both, creating more work for them.
This also has the benefit that if someone wanted to run a published adventure, the treasure provided (based on encounters and quest awards and such) is likely to be right. Or at least much closer to right, rather than requiring significant adjustment for L4W. So that's nice.
The time gold reward wouldn't need any fiddling by DMs - that's the point.
But it would, because over the course of most adventures players do not receive wealth in a straight line based on experience gained in the adventure. It varies.
Over the course of level 1 a party of 5 would expect to gain a level 5 item a level 4 item a level 3 item a level 2 item an enough gold and other treasure to but a level 1 item. But that is only 4 items and gold is usually split. So now you run an adventure that takes players from level 1 to level 2.
One player has a level 5 item, one player has a level 2 item, one player has a level 3 item, one player has a level 2 item and each player have 1/5th a lvl 1 item in gold.
If each one receives a set amount of gold for their time experience then most of the group is left in the cold compared to the rest. The 5,4,3,2,gold distribution works just fine when its for a single campaign, since a single campaign typically has a DM work the same characters over the course of the adventure. But in a persistent world that does not work. When handing out treasure, instead of simply thinking about what his players might need or want, he would have to also figure their current item wealth.
This is compounded as those players enter the next DMs adventure and each have advanced some time between those two games. E.G. lets say they gain a full level from 2 to 3 in the interim.
Now the wealth levels are as above but each one has the "average difference" in wealth between a level 2 and level 3 character. The characters who got weaker items or gold are simply screwed.
This is why i say that it might be easier to simply have players choose their items[or gold] and have the DM's give out "parcels" and players would choose which n+ item they would be getting each level. If you don't gain an item or cash before the end of a level gained by time you simply choose when you level up. Character judges at each level up can verify proper item level[players would have to keep a strict accounting of wealth in this instance however to ensure that no one cheats. In each 5 level span you would choose one of each category, either an item or cash with final accounting happening every 5 levels]
E.G. Bobby the human fighter progresses from level 1 to 5
At level 2 he has not received an item from a DM yet and so choose an item at lvl +1[a lvl 2 item]. He plays in the next game and levels to 4, but the DM awards him 2 parcels, he choses a lvl+4 and a lvl+3 item[two lvl 6 items], he then levels to 5 without getting another parcel and must choose cash or items equal to a level + 0 item[lvl 4 item worth of cash]
This has downsides in that players may be less likely to share their wealth, and low level consumables may be important to survivability, but it certainly solves the major issues of item wealth disparity, and removes the difficulty of choosing items for players from DM's.[unless Dm's don't choose items for players at the moment and i am wrong in that assumption]
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