Well, all are pretty awesome and I'd be happy to have any one of them.
Fey Pact's Teleport: How many people have taken Eladrin JUST because of their teleport. They can do it every time something dies! Gets you out of grabs, behind cover and basically let you pick the best place for you to be in a fight. Made of pure awesome.
Star Pact's Fate of the Void: Pluses to hit are few and far between in 4e. This not only does that but it's a CUMULATIVE bonus! Curse 4 minions, kill em with an area attack and you got +4 on your daily against the boss... Again, Pure awesome.
Infernal Pacts Dark One's Blessing: Temp Hp every kill? Perfect for warlocks that like to get into the thick of it. The ultimate in survivability.
Dark Pact's Darkspiral: An immediate interrupt, dealing 1d6 necrotic and psychic damage per killed creature? No hit, and if you do 12+ damage the foe is also weakened! If you avoid rests you could end up with a HUGE attack since it has no limit. Think I can get 12+ damage when I roll 12d6?
Honestly they all rock but the infernal pact is the weakest one since every other pact is cumulative. Only the infernal gets nothing for killing multiple bad guys unless they are also consistently getting hit. So the weakest gets the weakest at will?
Don't forget that your pact also limits your paragon path choices.
I love the flavor of the Infernal Pact. I like Faustian bargains (or, uh Oni-ian in Haruka's case), I like the vampiric aspect of gaining health from killing enemies, and I like the concept of the Life Stealer PP.
The problem with the temp hp is that a) they don't stack, and b) an Infernalist has lots of ways of getting them, which is a little annoying given that a) they don't stack. I would say Infernal gives the worst pact boon (discounting Vestige's, because they're weird). Now, it's still good, but it's not as good as the rest. In my opinion. Although I do hear it's tricky to pull off the Darkspiral Aura in a meaningful manner.
I also do think Hellish Rebuke is one of the weaker at-wills. Dire Radiance is solid, but does suffer from the best targets for it tend to have good Fort (melee monsters and undead). Eyebite is great. Eyes of the Vestige is even better. Spiteful Glamor is good, but boring.
It's in the Paragon Paths that Infernalists get thrashed. Life Stealer is so cool, but it's not that great mechanically. The utility is tricky to make worthwhile, the daily is rather poor, and the 16th level ability is rather unimpressive (but still really flavorful). As for Hellbringer, well, the abilities are better, but the powers are still pretty bad. For example, the level 11 power, Pillar of Power, does 2d8+con to one guy, half damage to all adjacent creatures. Compare this to the Warlock's level 3 power, Fiery Bolt: 3d6+con to one guy, 1d6+con+int to all adjacent creatures. That's right, Pillar of Power is worse.
There are two generic warlock PP's available. However, one of them only keys off Charisma. The other (Hexer) is pretty good, but you have to really like cursing people. And Infernalists get the least benefit from cursing multiple foes, because a) they (temp hp) don't stack.
The main advantage Infernalists have is that they use Con as a primary stat. And that's pretty awesome, even if it does make multiclassing tricky.
I picked infernal because I wanted to be a tough SOB. It just isn't as 'strong' a pick as the others if you look at the mechanics and Paragon Paths. And I'm fine with that. I can't help but REALLY hate Hellish Rebuke, feeling that it's the worst ranged at will out there.
It bears mentioning that Eyes of the Vestige is WAY strong, especially if chosen as a dilentate power by a half-elf.
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I didn't really comment on that one since what it varies so much depending on what vestige you have. At base, it's a nice at will without being TOO nice. Low damage, con vs will and lets you target someone else with your curse [or do your curse damage if already cursed].
Actually I don't see where this is anything special for a 1/2 elf. They don't have a curse, so they can't put it on anyone else. They don't have a vestige so nothing there. So a low damage, con vs will attack? What am I missing?
It's another one of those annoying RAI versus RAW issues. If the target isn't cursed, you can curse the target. This makes it pretty nice for getting around the normal targeting restrictions for cursing, and a bother when the caster doesn't normally have a curse. Depending on how you interpret it, at paragon a half elf can curse people at will. Granted, it costs a standard, has a chance of missing, and is delightfully guaranteed to not be using his main class' primary stat (*mumble grumble*), but it's still a curse.
I would say that it doesn't work. It says that you can place your curse on the target, not a curse. Since you don't have a curse, you don't have anything to place. But I can see the other side's reasoning on it.
Hey elec, what's your opinion of the Vestige Pact instead of Infernal? You're still fairly tough, you have pretty good access to temp hp, and you certainly get a better at-will. I don't know if the Infernal part is central to your character concept or not though.
If the target isn't cursed, you can curse the target. This makes it pretty nice for getting around the normal targeting restrictions for cursing, and a bother when the caster doesn't normally have a curse.
I have to disagree with that reading. What it says is this 'You place your Warlock's Curse on that creature'. Since a 1/2 elf doesn't HAVE a curse, they have nothing to place. This power doesn't give them the ability to curse, just another was to place the curse that the warlock already has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking
I would say that it doesn't work. It says that you can place your curse on the target, not a curse. Since you don't have a curse, you don't have anything to place. But I can see the other side's reasoning on it.
I'm with you up to the point of seeing the others reason. It seems mighty clear it doesn't make a curse out of thin air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBarking
Hey elec, what's your opinion of the Vestige Pact instead of Infernal?
At this point I'd rather not. As I've said, I'm happy with infernal. It's not the most powerful option by far, but it work with my character. The only thing I'm unhappy with if my crappy pact at will.
One of the things that's turning me off about this proposal is how completely opposite to the warlock's fluff it is.
I found something in the arcane book that speaks directly about the warlock fluff. It more or less says 'ignore the fluff if it doesn't fit your character'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Power, pg#77{pacts and powers sidebar}
"The warlock spells in the Player's Handbookall identify the pact they're associated with, but the spells in this book don't include that information. After looking at the Player's Handbook, many players felt constrained to choose the powers associated with their pact, which is far too limiting. If you're a fey pact warlock, you don't have to choose only fey pact powers-any warlock spell that uses Charisma (including dark pact powers and some star pact powers) is a fine choice for you. If you want to, you can tweak the descriptions, flavor, or even the names of your powers to reflect your pact or the particular patron you choose."
So... Could we have an actual vote on this? I know there has been a yes and a probably but I'm not positive where the rest stand.
Allow warlocks to choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
Allow warlocks to choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
Yes to that.
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Allow warlocks to choose two at-wills from the following: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Strike, their pact power. This way they have some choice, but they can't grab powers from other pacts (unless they're human). They can just choose among their pact power and the two generic ones.
No need to say sorry covaithe. I knew there would some people that wanted to keep things as is and I understand how you feel. For the most part, I'm happy with most thing as is from WOTC. This is one area however that I always house-rule in my real life game.
Call it a pet peeve if you will, but it irks me. For the life of me I can't find a single mechanical reason warlocks can't retrain at-wills and the fluff is 100% changeable [see arcane quote above]. It's not like my patron can't give me another at will because he can give another one to humans.
LOL Don't let me get started again. As I said, don't worry about voting no.
I'm here, I'm here. And this round you got some extra damage out of Dire radiance too, didn't you?
Ultimately, the disadvantage of these powers is that they depend on how the DM plays the bad guys. If he plays them too smart all the time, assessing the correct choice to make, they're going to suck. Otherwise... they can rock, if you use them wisely.
Oh, and those temporary hp have been saving Haruka's butt repeteadly so they can't be that bad. That, too, depends on style of play. If you play it safe and stay in the back you wo't get much out of the infernal pact boon, 'cause temp hp don't stack, but if you're constantly getting hit, then you'll be happy about your choice. Which also means an infernal warlock has better chances of profiting from his Prime Strike feature.
Oh, and about the proposal... I agree with Cov, so, sorry, but NO!
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I'm here, I'm here. And this round you got some extra damage out of Dire radiance too, didn't you?
Not me. If I had dire radiance, you wouldn't hear a complaint from me! Dire radiance is a useful at will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanatotatos
Ultimately, the disadvantage of these powers is that they depend on how the DM plays the bad guys. If he plays them too smart all the time, assessing the correct choice to make, they're going to suck. Otherwise... they can rock, if you use them wisely.
This hadn't panned out with hellish rebuke. I've played a few infernal warlocks, some with new Dm's and some with experienced. I only got the extra damage a few times and it wasn't worth it since I had to provoke more damage than it dealt to my enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanatotatos
If you play it safe and stay in the back you wo't get much out of the infernal pact boon, 'cause temp hp don't stack, but if you're constantly getting hit, then you'll be happy about your choice. Which also means an infernal warlock has better chances of profiting from his Prime Strike feature.
I'm happy with infernal, it's hellish rebuke. Bringing up non-stacking was because someone asked how the pacts stacked up to each other. It's not the most powerful and it really does have a crappy at-will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanatotatos
Oh, and about the proposal... I agree with Cov, so, sorry, but NO!
Well I have to admit that's disappointing. I can't see leaving myself weaker in ranged combat to give myself a melee attack. Losing eldritch blast means in my experience 95% of the time you deal JUST a d6 vs a d10. *shrug* Melee training for me. I really did want to try out the new power.
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