Proposal: Divine Power

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

I'm not sure what kind of campaigns you're playing in where the clerics are doing crazy damage. This ability makes it not matter how long the fight "drags on", because it's handing out constant healing as an at-will. In addition, it makes it easier for everyone to hit. After you hit once, you gain the bonus to hit as well if needed, making the cycle even easier to maintain.

If there are multiple enemies on the field, then taking a long time to kill one without expending resources means that the rest get more time to plug away at everyone else. Seal can only heal one ally, while every living enemy has a change to hurt an ally. And most, if not all, solos can hit multiple targets at once. Also, when enemies live longer they have more chances to disrupt your plans with nasty conditions, recharge powers, and complete evil rituals that you are trying to stop. So yes, the length of the fight is still important.

The cleric could have been using Sacred Flame or Recovery Strike to do damage while defending, or Righteous Brand or Lance of Faith to do damage while helping someone else attack. And no, I haven't seen leaders whip out huge amounts of damage, but their attacks aren't nothing. Most non-strikers struggle to do more than [W] damage with an at-will.

[CaBaNa]

HotF as a once per day encounter long... ok, you win.

[ryryguy]

This, to me, has the feel of one of those "looks too good to be true" things on paper, but actually pretty difficult to figure out in advance how effective it'll be until you play with it. Like 3.0 flurry of blows. It has the potential to really stretch the party's healing surge resources, and could have an outsize impact on the game if it acually does so. But there are enough factors involved to make it really hard to say for sure that that will happen. So, I'd be inclined to shrug and let it in as-is, see what happens.

One question though, how does this interact with Pacifist Cleric? Do they get even more benefit from the healing?

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by ryryguy

One question though, how does this interact with Pacifist Cleric? Do they get even more benefit from the healing?

No. The feat Pacifist Healer applies only to surge expenditure. If you paragon into Compassionate Healer, you can take 5 dmg to add +2d6 to the heal and gain +2 to all defenses until WoNT, though.

However, Medic's Weapon, Healer's Brooch and the feats Potent Restoratives and Healer's Implement all add to the healing done by Astral Seal. By early epic, you can heal around 80 hp with Astral Seal, which is more than double the average damage of early-epic elites. It starts out strong and can be broken to be straight-up ridiculous.

[JoeNotCharles]

It kind of feels to me like this should be granting temp hp, except then it doesn't stack with Battlerage Vigor. How about "grants X temp hp, or adds (a smaller amount) to the current temp hp total if the character already has temp hp"? (I'd suggest "temp hp that stacks with all temp hp that's not from the same power", like Battlerage Vigor and Invigorating used to do, but I never really liked that.)

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

No. The feat Pacifist Healer applies only to surge expenditure. If you paragon into Compassionate Healer, you can take 5 dmg to add +2d6 to the heal and gain +2 to all defenses until WoNT, though.

However, Medic's Weapon, Healer's Brooch and the feats Potent Restoratives and Healer's Implement all add to the healing done by Astral Seal. By early epic, you can heal around 80 hp with Astral Seal, which is more than double the average damage of early-epic elites. It starts out strong and can be broken to be straight-up ridiculous.

I have to say, if Astral Seal doesn't become broken until paragon levels, then I really don't care. I don't have the same faith in WotC's ability to quickly notice and balance broken elements in their game, but if Seal really is too good, I'm sure they will have fixed it by the time anyone in L4W hits level 11.

[CaBaNa]

don't switch it to temp HP, then it's no better than sacred flame...

I'm hiding the foam...

[elecgraystone]

It seems fine as is. As TwoHeadsBarking said, if it's only an issue when you hit epic, I don't think we have to worry here. And If we nerf it, we kill an entire build, the pacifist cleric. I say keep it as it's written.

[Velmont]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

However, Medic's Weapon, Healer's Brooch and the feats Potent Restoratives and Healer's Implement all add to the healing done by Astral Seal. By early epic, you can heal around 80 hp with Astral Seal, which is more than double the average damage of early-epic elites. It starts out strong and can be broken to be straight-up ridiculous.

Medic weapon boost Channel Divinity powers only, not At-Will.
Healer's Implement feat and Healer's Brooch would help that power.
Potent could help too. It would cost two feat and a Int 13, not all Cleric will aim for such Int.

So let's assume we have a Kalashtar who started with 18 in Wis and Cha. By level 28, he will have

2+8(Cha)+8(wis)+6(implement)+6(Brooch)+7(Potent Restorative) = 37 hp healed. This is far from your 80 and we are at late Epic. And he need to hit and another character need to hit the same target.

I've never seen it into action, but the fact this power doesn't damage at all, and it is no guarantee to heal each round, even for a heavily healing character, I don't see it as overpowered. It might become a strong at-will, but I wouldn't be surprise to see the opposite too.

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by Velmont

Medic weapon boost Channel Divinity powers only, not At-Will.

My mistake. I was thinking Holy Healer's Weapon, but even that is Healing Word, not all healing.

2+8(Cha)+8(wis)+6(implement)+6(Brooch)+7(Potent Restorative) = 37 hp healed. This is far from your 80 and we are at late Epic. And he need to hit and another character need to hit the same target.

Add +2d6 + Cha for Compassionate Healer PC, +Cha for Beatific Healer, +5 for Beacon of Hope, and with Symbol of the Warpriest, you also toss out additional small heals each time you hit with Astral Seal, so call it another +5 there (it's not a power, so nothing adds to it). Power of Life gives an additional 8 temp HP when Astral Seal hits.

Now we're looking at 2+ 3*7 (Cha) + 7 (Wis) + 5 (healer's implement) + 5 (brooch) + 6 (potent) + 5 (Beacon) + 5 (symbol) + 2d6 = 62 average + 8 temp hp. That's at level 21 aka "early epic".

At the same level, a Healing Word affect two targets (retrain feat to Supreme Healer at 21) and does Surge + 5d6 (base) + 3*7 (Cha) + 7 (Wis) + 5 (healer's implement) + 5 (brooch) + 6 (potent) + 5 (Beacon) + 5 (symbol) + 5 (holy healer) + 2d6 (compassion) + 2d6 (gloves of the healer) + 3d6 (pacifist) +2d6 (radiant vessel + sacred flame) = Surge + 108 average + Cha to defenses + saving throw.

Too much, you say? It doesn't matter... it'll be mostly wasted? Then you need to meet the pacifist healer's little friend: the Cincture of Vivacity:

Lvl 14
Item Slot: Waist
Property: When you spend a healing surge and regain hit points above your maximum hit points, you can keep the extra hit points as temporary hitpoints until the end of the encounter.

Did I get the attention of everyone who's seen a battlerager?

Finally, a "pacifist" healer is only penalized for damaging bloodied enemies. He can still, say, use Sacred Flame to clear minions. He can stun, daze, apply vulnerabilities, cleanse status effects, and slowly help chew a monster's hp down (to bloodied anyway) just like any other leader. The difference is that he does it while providing fantastic healing.

At the very least, Potent Restorables should only affect Artificer healing powers. This would bring it in line with other leader healing boosting feats. I believe that stacking ability mod bonuses multiple times isn't a great idea, either.

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, so since I haven't read the book yet, I don't recognize most of this. Can you give a full list of stuff you think is problematic? Or do you think the "pacifist healer" build should be banned entirely like Battlerage Vigour was?

(If the "fix the proposals" proposal passes - which it will soon - this is the list of stuff that we'll have to vote on instead of just letting pass automatically. Does anyone else have anything they object to?)

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by JoeNotCharles

Ok, so since I haven't read the book yet, I don't recognize most of this. Can you give a full list of stuff you think is problematic? Or do you think the "pacifist healer" build should be banned entirely like Battlerage Vigour was?

The Pacifist Healer feat is balanced. it only affects Healing Word, only adds +1d6 per tier, and has a hefty drawback. Things that I think are problematic:

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

Previous Material
Cincture of Vivacity (AV): As displayed above, a cleric can pre-buff a tank to double his hp with temps, as well as giving him a large bonus to defenses against the first attack.

Battle Standard of Healing (AV): This item counts as a "healing power" for the cleric, according to WotC custserv. If a DM follows that ruling, a Battle Standard does similar healing to Astral Seal in a close burst 5 each time a healing surge is used. Probably too strong, especially at low level and in conjuction with some of the stacking bonuses mentioned above.

[Velmont]

If I look at your healer, the guy is damned good healer, but he doesn't do anything else than that. Almost all his items are dedicated to it, as half his feat, some bonus come from daily power... As I told, I never had the chance to see a Pacifist healer, but that guy will do almost no damage.

Also, I am not sure you could get a bonus from both your holy symbol and weapon. You use either to use your powers. It's a bit of technicality, I think I would need to try to see what the character builder say about it.

Up to now, I am not sure if there is a need to fix, and anyway, before we see that kind of healer on L4W, it will takes years. I played 5 years on LEW and my character reach only level 11th in 3.5 and he was the highest level character of all LEW. So before going out in fear and put 20 house rules, I think we have time to see what WotC will do about that kind of build and see it a bit more into action.

[ryryguy]

It seems the point people are forgetting, is that it's not just "damn good healer" (at the cost of equipment, feats, etc.) but "damn good healer who makes it so you don't need to use surges". That is potentially disruptive.

(Though like I said before, it's not clear to me that will come to pass and I'd just let it in for now. But that is the danger.)

[JoeNotCharles]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

The Pacifist Healer feat is balanced. it only affects Healing Word, only adds +1d6 per tier, and has a hefty drawback. Things that I think are problematic:

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

Ok, so at this point, AFAICT the list of stuff that has to be discussed and voted on from DP is Hero of Faith, Potent Restorables and Astral Seal. Did I miss anything? Does anyone have anything else?

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Previous Material

Well, that you'll have to make a separate proposal for.

[ryryguy]

I think making Potent Restorables apply to Artificer powers only probably makes sense. It's an Artificer thing, right?

[Velmont]

Potent Restorable comes from Eberron Campaign setting. But it makes sense to apply it to only Artificer powers. After all, there is a few feat/Power/abilities that boost only divine healing powers.

And for a good healer without healing surge, don't forget that Astral Seal need to hit (let's gives an average chance of 65%, as you have +2) and after that, another person need to hit too (let's gives him another 65% of chance to hit, as you give -2 to all defences). In the end, you have 42% chance to heal. So, if you can heal 60 hp with your Astral Seal, you end to heal an average of 25 hp per round.

Now, let's compare with Commander's Strike, a Warlord power that have taken in strength with time since the number of serious melee basic attack have grown in time. Let's assume we have a swordmage with a longsword. His basic melee attack deals 2d8[2W]+8[Str]+5[Weapon enhancement]+3[Weapon Focus]+2[Iron Armband] and have a chance to hit of 55% (as there is no +2 to hit or -2 to defense here). Now, you most also add the +8[Int] from the warlord. For an average of 35 damage (and I don't even consider a possible critical, which could happen on 19-20 at that level) for an average of 20 damage. Considering the critical, considering there is character with more deadly basic attack, this warlord could do as much damage to his enemy than the cleric can heal his friend.

Now, a Tactical Warlord have more than a way to raise the damage output of a team. A well build Tactical Warlord can output as much damage as a Healer cleric can heal.

Now, I think the question is more, what is more value in a combat. 1 point of damage or 1 healed hit point? I think both as equivalent and in the end, Astral Seal seems at first sight might become a strong power, but not necessarily a broken one...

Also, Astral Seal need a Standard action, and at that level, you have 4 encounter powers, at least 6 utility, 4 daily and some magic items. You won't necessarily using it at every round. And healing damage at the start of combat is a bit useless. What the use of healing 60 damage when the most wounded person in your group have taken 20 damages... But doing 60 damages to a guy that has 5 hp left is always a good thing, as the guy will be out of action.

I'm telling that because my first reaction was the same as Tinwe. "Wow, that is broken strong!", but with after doing the maths properly and not stopping at simply at the amount the power can heal in one turn. I am a lot less impress and as I told, maybe we should wait to see it into action before creating house rules.

[elecgraystone]

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Don't see an issue. It's two feats [multi-class + restorables]. Sounds like a fair trade.

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

So you want it to do LESS healing AND damage than Recovery strike? I don't get that. Recovery strike can do 2d6 + str and heal CHA + Wis. Your 'fixed' astral seal does NO damage, -2 defenses and heals Cha +2. Seems to me they were in line with each other before you got the nerf bat out.

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Previous Material
Cincture of Vivacity (AV): As displayed above, a cleric can pre-buff a tank to double his hp with temps, as well as giving him a large bonus to defenses against the first attack.

*shrug* It means guessing who is going to take damage before it happens. The healer wastes a heal on the tank and he gets immobilized, entangled, falls in a pit, ect or there is a rear attack and you just tossed away a heal you could have used for someone that's actually dying. I say you want to throw the dice that ONLY the tank is going to need healed, go for it.

Originally Posted by Tinwe

Battle Standard of Healing (AV): This item counts as a "healing power" for the cleric, according to WotC custserv. If a DM follows that ruling, a Battle Standard does similar healing to Astral Seal in a close burst 5 each time a healing surge is used. Probably too strong, especially at low level and in conjunction with some of the stacking bonuses mentioned above.

I say if someone spends all there feats and items on healing, they should be damn good at it. However, I'd be happy to say that the battle standard does NOT count as a healing power.

[Velmont]

Wow,I just took a look at Recovery strike. I forgot that one, as I have never played a Str Cleric... True, Recovery Strike seems pretty much equivalent to Astral Seal. So if one need a nerf, the other would too. And I don't think either would need one.

And the battle standard of healing only add +1 to all healing surge value use within the burst. I don't see how it can heal someone as astral seal. And anyway, an item is not a cleric power unless it is explicitly told in the description. I don't think L4W will work with what someone have told, only with official published stock from books, errata or D&DI.

[Tinwe]

Originally Posted by Velmont

Wow,I just took a look at Recovery strike. I forgot that one, as I have never played a Str Cleric... True, Recovery Strike seems pretty much equivalent to Astral Seal. So if one need a nerf, the other would too. And I don't think either would need one.

Thing is, Recovery Strike keys off of a melee attack, which means that it is less "good" than Astral Seal for two reasons:
1) A Str cleric will not pump both Cha and Wis, so the base healing is less.
2) A Str cleric will not focus on healing to the point of MC for heal feats and other tricks that make Astral Seal so potentially good. In particular, a Str cleric does not take the PPs that allow multiple stacking of Cha modifiers.

Furthermore, since it seems not to have gotten through to a few people: you don't depend on your Cleric doing 1d6+wis or 1d8+str to win battles. You depend on your striker doing 1d10+str+SA/HQ/Curse damage two or more times a round. The function of a leader in an optimized party is to set up the battlefield and make enemies easier to hit. The pacifist cleric does that, while maintaining extremely high levels of surgeless healing.

And the battle standard of healing only add +1 to all healing surge value use within the burst. I don't see how it can heal someone as astral seal. And anyway, an item is not a cleric power unless it is explicitly told in the description. I don't think L4W will work with what someone have told, only with official published stock from books, errata or D&DI.

No, the battle standard of healing allows everyone in the burst to heal 1 point when someone in the burst uses a surge. It's quite the difference. It doesn't gain as many bonuses as Astral Seal, but it easily heals "as much as Astral Seal" for several reasons:

1) It doesn't require hitting anything, whereas Astral Seal does
2) It heals anyone in close burst 5, whereas Astral Seal is 1/turn
3) A level 1 Cleric cleric can do 2 Healing Word/encounter as well as Healer's Mercy, which with a BSoH is a "nova heal" as everyone in close burst 5 spends a surge and then regains extra hp from the standard. Useless most of the time? Sure. I still would have loved it in the encounter Renau1g just put us through. Don't discount the use of Second Wind, either.

For what it's worth, you're correct- it doesn't count as a "cleric healing power", but it does count as "your power with the healing keyword" or "your healing power" which means that Healer's Lore and Healer's Implement don't affect it, but Healer's Brooch, Holy Healing Weapon, Gloves of the Healer and Potent Restorables all do. I don't know if you're sensing a trend here.