well, L4W isn't the RPGA and doesn't necesarily have the same rules that they do (i.e. the waiting period, house rules, etc.) so it's not equivalent and I believe that there is a rule that no playtest/preview material is eligible for L4W as it creates conflicts when the final is different from the full write up (see the minotaur, that wasn't even a playtest)
Hybrids are a playtest, tho, right? I'd argue they'd be a good addition, if only because there are so many strikers in the forums. Sure, you'd get Sor/Pallies, but the striker/defender, /controller, /leader would at least mix things up a bit.
if its a preview, sure, but I see the logic for sure on no playtests: the judges have lines outside of checking people's characters (such as making up their own, commenting in the peanuts callery, streaming videos, and making (lets say) truffles at home, from scratch).
Eventually I predict they'll be limited to the more synergistic options (wizard/swordmage, etc.), but will still manage to lower the percentage of pure strikers. That and one or two unoptimized concepts (sans striker class).
Anybody have a link to the Hybrid class info that Wizards put out so far? I looked through their new site some but couldn't find it. I've got a character idea in mind that would be a hybrid ideally, but I'll probably create it as a multiclass for now. Just interested to see what they proposed so far. Checked Amazon and saw that PHB3 doesn't come out till March, so its awhile away still. And it looks like a minotaur and a Githyanki on the cover!? Cool.
Githyanki: currently they're already in the Monster Manual, so if you really wanted to play one you could. However, I don't think they'll be a "core" race any time soon. There was an article about how WOTC doesn't want to make another Drow situation, where they're basically good guys.
Other than a general principle, of those who can see the Hybrid stuff, are there any glaring reasons why (as written currently) they wouldn't be acceptable in L4W?
Trying to kickstart discussion so we have groundwork laid out for when they do come up for proposals.
I guess this comes down to home games and experience, y'know?
Other than a general principle, of those who can see the Hybrid stuff, are there any glaring reasons why (as written currently) they wouldn't be acceptable in L4W?
You mean other than the fact that the PHB3 might be totally different that the playtest version? They come right out and tell you it isn't a finished product.
You mean other than the fact that the PHB3 might be totally different that the playtest version? They come right out and tell you it isn't a finished product.
I know that part.
What I'm wondering is if anyone's tried them out, and if we could get a list of things that worry the boards about using them here. This isn't the proposal thread, but discussion.
I think, because the classes are designed to be specialized, that spreading things out would weaken these PCs. Ergo, I don't see too much of a problem. Maybe the Mage Hand overuse for Rogues, but who knows.
The problems with the system originally stemmed from stacking. The latest playtest reworded many options, so that most class abilities that have to do with attacking will only work when your using a power from that class. So no more sneak attack on sorcerer dailies.
However, several I still see three areas where people might view Hybrids as overpowered.
Skill lists. Some classes grant bonus skill picks. EX: If you pick a defender and a rogue, you can build a character that's primarily a defender, that has five trained skills instead of three.
Stances. Powers that activate stances can sometimes be stacked with daillies of other classes with impressive results.
High AC AND High Damage. Certain combinations can be made to increase the AC of a striker, greatly. The example given before is Paladin/Sorcerer with the Hybrid Talent Feat for Paladin Armor.
The first two points seem relatively minor to me. Both can be accomplished through Multi-classing feats relatively easily and with less penalty.
You missed what I think is the biggest boon to the Hybrid, Implements count as an implement for either class.
Those that you listed, don't seem like too much... granted I'm not sure which stances and dailies you're referring to.
Extra skills don't particularly impress me, often they just enhance a characters back story, and make them feel a little more useful in skill challenges.
High AC and high damage can be done, it's just hard, and requires sacrifice, and hybrids sacrifice a lot.
I agree with you Cabana, and should clarify my statement.
I like the current Hybrid rules. As it stands Hybrids have allot of drawbacks, and can easily be built poorly. It takes a little more work to build one that works really well. The customization tends to add allot of flavor which lends itself to unique characters in personality and background.
I do not believe that the current rules will lead to balance issues more severe than what is allowed without them.
You point out something that deserves thought as well. People may absolutely need that overhaul, after building an incredibly weak hybrid character, by accident.
High variable for character effectiveness, spot on ScorpiusRisk, that is the concern.
And the judges have expressed concern over overhauls involving class changes, which would more than likely leading to retirement and killing continuity.
Do we inform people that their character concept may be highly ineffective? If a Character Checker or Judge spots an underpowered, ineffective character, how should they point that out? or should they?
Personally, I don't think the judges should be expected to check the relative power level of the PC they are reviewing. Now if I saw something very off (like having a 12 in your main stat), I'd probably note it, but again the character reviewers job isn't to determine effectiveness of a build, but rather to determine that the #'s are calculated correctly and that the templated sheet is done right.
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