We probably should have common guidelines for what can be bought at a moment's notice (during the adventure as opposed to between adventures)through the stores of the various locations, but most importantly from Daunton.
The subject came up in 6 Eagle Down. My spontaneous guideline was no magic items but any one-shot (consumables/potions/Whetsone etc.) items of the heroic tier.
The idea being that for a PC to buy a magic item within the hour, it implies that some nearby merchant had it in stock. I dare say the market for +2 flaming sword can't be that extensive that the local swordsmith keep a dozen of those stocked at all times... Never mind the dozens of other types of magic swords that exists, some of which are pretty specific in their intended market (Pact Longsword, anyone?).
I figured that if a PC wants to purchase a specific magic item, he either comission it from an enchanter NPC or tracks it down like one would track down a piece of art from a specific artist. All of this is elegantly handled by keeping it behind the scenes and between adventures. PCs can comment on how they acquired their new items at their discretion.
On the other hand, it makes more sense for one-shot items to be kept in stock and to be available during an adventure. But to what point? Just how magic heavy is Daunton? Surely buying half a dozen healing potions is easy, but what about half a dozen gem of valor?
Our adventures take place in the same locales, after all. It would be jarring for a PC to adventure in Daunton under two DMs and find wildly different ideas of what is commonly available and what isn't.
I'd suggest a streetwise roll to find what you want in that hour if it's a spur of the moment thing. If you know the right people to talk to it shouldn't be that hard.
Also if someone is interested in buying an item, it's likely that they have shopped around for it before that 1 hour. If you saw that +2 flaming sword in a shop window and you were just saving up for it, an hour seems fine to run there, pay for it and get back.
I'd suggest a streetwise roll to find what you want in that hour if it's a spur of the moment thing. If you know the right people to talk to it shouldn't be that hard.
Depends on how you see it.
There are litterrally hundreds of possible magic items none of which are likely to be mass produced (Except maybe for the common one-shot items).
In fact, there are thousands. Consider that a lifedrinker longsword, broad sword, great sword, bastard sword, fullblade etc. are all distinct items.
There about 77 different weapons. Heavy blades have well over 60 different potential enchantment that are available for level 1 alone (More are unlocked as you increase level). And then you multiply all that by 6 (+1 to +6 enchantments)... We are talking almost 10 thousands potential combinations for weapons +1 and +2 alone. We can restrict that to just the most popular weapons and the most popular enchantment but we are still at about a thousand.
The odds are overwhelming, if you decide you want a +2 lifedrinker broadsword, that there isn't a single one available in all of Daunton!
So you commision one just for you but you can't buy it on the corner.
Unless we declare that Dauton has well over 500 000 people regularly buying powerful enchanted weapons, I just don't see how you can have magic weapons for open sale, except maybe bland +1 items. There is no market for it.
It was pretty much the same thing back when swords where in use: A crappy mass produced sword, you could get that by the dozens. A toledo steel sword perfectly balanced for your body size and forged by a master? Sure, but even if you got the gold, be patient. We have none in stock.
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 14th October 2009 at 09:11 PM..
We are not quite to the point where people will start selling their items. A few more level for that.
But if we establish a general: 'Can't Buy magic items during an adventure' it could lead to an interesting: 'Unless they currently have what you are looking for at 'Daunton's Magical Emporium'.
In fact, there are thousands. Consider that a lifedrinker longsword, broad sword, great sword, bastard sword, fullblade etc. are all distinct items.
Transfer enchantment also only takes an hour. So if you you find the enchantment you want and don't mind paying a bit extra, it isn't a problem. It's even better if YOU have the enchant. Rituals + gold + 1 hour = the item you want as long as you find someone high enough. Sounds like a good time for that streetwise check!
And take me for example. I had almost enough for a pact blade before my current adventure. If I hadn't found one, I'm sure I've already looked for one and know where to go to get one when I found the extra @20gp I needed. It wouldn't have taken ME an hour to buy one.
Sure logically the D&D economy wouldn't have what you're looking for, however this is a high fantasy game with fireballing eladrin, teleporting gnomes, and summoned creatures from the Abyss, I don't think we should worry too much about restricting where or availability of an item if the PC has the money.
Oh, and my link wasn't suggesting to have one of the PC's make the items, but rather just suggesting to have something in place where there's a common magic item selling store.
Arg, my head is bursting. Really, really, don't like this. But that's out of my hand.
So how common should those NPC enchanters of various level be? If the PC has the ritual and the level, than it seems he can do it.
And if there are as many enchanters of high level as McDonald's, then I will have to relent and admit we can get whatever we want in just an hour.
But I am still thinking this should take place between adventures (unless you can do it yourself). Unless all these guys sit on their ass all day waiting for adventurers to come in their home/shop and are willing to oblige them on the spot because they had no other engament. And unless these guys are all set-up to accept large payments in jewels, platinum or letter of credits on the spot without needing to check for the real value.
So, I would say this still takes the better part of a day, or at least an afternoon. Not nearly as long as I thought, though.
But if we do accept it, I am still looking for a recommended fee for NPC's service. Any idea where to look?
Last edited by Mal Malenkirk; 14th October 2009 at 09:49 PM..
Streetwise DC 5+Item Level for consumables, 15+Item Level for standard items, 25+Item Level if it's part of a set or otherwise special. +5 or maybe +10 if you want it within the hour.
The di Senzio's Magical Shop was a viable option only because:
A) A player was willing to run it
B) Save money to do it (I had, at some moment, over 10k gp in store, unavailable to Rinaldo during his adventures)
C) Created a Prestige Class that allowed him to buy and sell items on the market at 90% of the price. The goal of that PrC was to create a more living world, and also create a class that was weak in adventure by itself, but that his higher capacity to buy and trade magical items would compensate for his weakness.
In the end, it work and gives some flavor to the world, and Rinaldo have never been seen as a broken character, and maybe it is because of of how I played him.
Anyway, I don't think we will see such character in L4W just because of the whole money system we are using.
But I must tell that was a nice achievement for me to have been able to run that shop for a few years.
__________________ Living ENWorld di Senzio's Magical Shop, the best place to buy and sell magical items in Orussus
Quite honestly I'd go with JoeNotCharles's post if you're looking for the ITEM. If you are looking for the person that enchants then, I'd say their level as a streetwise DC if they want. It's not like they are trying to hide or it wouldn't be common knowledge who can use the enchant.
As far as a recommended fee for NPC's service, I'd say none. The only way the 4E economy works is if NPC don't use the same system as PC's. I suspect that they don't pay full price for rituals, much like they don't pay full price for mundane items. As such, they most likely only a fraction of the PC cost in materials, pocketing the rest for themselves. The only 'charge' I see is for something like a transfer enchantment because it's not added into the cost already and this would only be an issue if you couldn't find someone high enough to make the item outright.
Class ability: You gain the Ritual Caster Feat
At-Will: Use ritual without cost
At-Will: Close shop before PCs show up. (To prevent any PC abuse)
Encounter: Bargain with PCs (Customers must pay the full price, no negotiation possible, last until the end of the encounter)
Daily: Annoy PCs (Automatic fail on his ritual roll and the PC must pay the bill, even without any result in the end. All PC are Stunned (to not leave without paying). Last until PC pay.)
__________________ Living ENWorld di Senzio's Magical Shop, the best place to buy and sell magical items in Orussus
Quite honestly I'd go with JoeNotCharles's post if you're looking for the ITEM. If you are looking for the person that enchants then, I'd say their level as a streetwise DC if they want. It's not like they are trying to hide or it wouldn't be common knowledge who can use the enchant.
I would say PC's usually just say they want to obtain the item, they don't specify how - so it's up to the DM whether their Streetwise roll means they find it for sale in a bazaar somewhere, or find a wizard who's willing to cast Enchant Item at short notice, or find thieves willing to sell it on the black market, or what.
I would say PC's usually just say they want to obtain the item, they don't specify how - so it's up to the DM whether their Streetwise roll means they find it for sale in a bazaar somewhere, or find a wizard who's willing to cast Enchant Item at short notice, or find thieves willing to sell it on the black market, or what.
As I said, that only really works if you are looking for the item. If you've made your roll in the past and have found someone that does enchantments, why are you wandering around the bazaar and not going to them? Magic is pricey enough that I can't really see having to wait any length of time to get an enchant.
Short notice only matters if someone is churning out magic items and hoping someone buys them. If you're going to someone that makes heroic items, is he making +1 rods and hoping someone will buy them or is he going to wait until someone comes in and asks for a fire staff and make it then and there? I'm guessing the latter.
I really don't feel it's necessary to limit the purchase of magic items or penalize PC's with low CHA (no streetwise) so they can't buy an item. I feel one central point of purchase is good though, like Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium, or something like that. So we can have a thread where PC's can RP out their purchase as required.
As I said, that only really works if you are looking for the item. If you've made your roll in the past and have found someone that does enchantments, why are you wandering around the bazaar and not going to them? Magic is pricey enough that I can't really see having to wait any length of time to get an enchant.
Because the person you know is out of town searching for reagents, or locked away in their lab not taking calls, or busy making a huge load of items that was ordered by the Mayor for the defense of the city and has higher priority than your request, so you need to find an alternate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elecgraystone
Short notice only matters if someone is churning out magic items and hoping someone buys them. If you're going to someone that makes heroic items, is he making +1 rods and hoping someone will buy them or is he going to wait until someone comes in and asks for a fire staff and make it then and there? I'm guessing the latter.
Ok, so I, the player, say, "I want a firestaff" and I make my streetwise check, and you, the DM, say, "You find a mage who is willing to enchant you a firestaff, and he does so." Works out fine. I don't see why I should have to phrase it as, "I want a firestaff, so I'll look for a mage to enchant me one." The Streetwise skill should cover knowing whether I can find something for sale or have to have it made.
So I guess you're just arguing that my DC's are too high? Maybe, I just pulled thme out of the air. I wouldn't want it to be too easy.
I really don't feel it's necessary to limit the purchase of magic items or penalize PC's with low CHA (no streetwise) so they can't buy an item. I feel one central point of purchase is good though, like Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium, or something like that. So we can have a thread where PC's can RP out their purchase as required.
The only way I'd see a low CHA (no streetwise) an issue is if there are time constrains and the person hasn't done the leg work before. Given some time and luck they should be able to find an enchanter. If they've found a place before, like 'Daunton's Magical Emporium', no additional rolls are needed.
This is under the assumption that the party only has a limited amount of time before the adventure starts, however. Taking that into account, I can see a person that has a low CHA (no streetwise) and has never shopped in town before for magic having a rough time getting it done under the time constraints.
JoeNotCharles, my main argument is that you have different DC's based on the item and level. It should be based on the enchanter and his level really. I'm thinking that people that sell rituals like to make money so it's not very hard to find out who does that. In fact, they WANT word of mouth, so when someone wants to put down 2000+gp, they come looking for them.
If something has come up and the person you know can't do it, that'd be a check but again it should me MUCH easier than the DC's you have. It's in their best interest to 'put the word out' that they aren't available and it wouldn't surprise me if they'd have a replacement [friend, apprentice ect]. You don't want your customers going to the enchanter down the street because you were out of town on a shopping trip.
It's making extra work, for no mechanical reason...
This is all fluff.
If a person wants the item mid-adventure, let them have it. As a DM, set up a situation in which they lose the requisite amount of cash, and find said item.
Hole in your purse... lost 360 gp, how sad... On the upside, as you sifted through the floor boards, +1 magic amulet! Yay!
Wandering merchant caravan passes by, one time use magic chest that converts gold into items you wish for, A demon appears through a hole in the abyss to make a deal, any number of solutions present themselves outside of limitation.
No need to limit. No need to force other DM's to wait until adventure's end.
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