Reducing Level Adjustment

[Solange]

Any chance we can use the UA Level Adjustment buy off rules?

Originally Posted by UA

When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden. Eventually, the benefits of the creature type may come to be eclipsed by those of his class features, and the player may regret his choice of race. Under this variant system, the character can pay an XP cost at certain intervals to decrease the burden of his level adjustment.

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments Starting
		Number of Class Levels Necessary
Level		for Level Adjustment Reduction
Adjustment	(Not Including Racial Hit Dice)
1 		3
2 		6,9
3 		9, 15, 18
4 		12
5 		15
6 		18

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

Table: Reducing Level Adjustments gives the levels at which level adjustments are eligible to be reduced for starting level adjustments of +1 to +6. Creatures with a level adjustment of +7 or more retain their full normal level adjustment until reaching epic levels (21st level or higher), and thus aren't included on the table. However, you can follow the pattern described above to determine when such creatures' level adjustments can be decreased.

Experience Point Cost

Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. The deduction should reduce the character's effective character level (ECL) by 1. (If this deduction would not reduce the character's ECL by 1, the character's XP total is set at the maximum of the level below his current ECL instead.) This XP cost can't be reversed in any way, and the payment must be voluntary on the part of the character. The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.

For instance, a 2nd-level gnoll fighter (ECL 5) who later gains a third class level has a minimum of 15,000 XP (his ECL has just gone from 5 to 6). He is eligible to reduce his level adjustment from +1 to +0. He must pay 5,000 XP, since his ECL is now 6 (2 Hit Dice plus 3 class levels plus his +1 level adjustment). After he pays the XP, his level adjustment decreases by 1 to +0. He now has 10,000 XP. His ECL falls to 5 (2 Hit Dice plus 3 class levels). Even if the XP payment would not reduce him to 5th level—for instance, if his XP total after reaching 6th level were 20,000 or more—his XP total can't remain above the maximum for 5th level, which is 10,000. Effectively, the gnoll has "paid off" his level adjustment with an XP cost, and he is now a 5th-level character.

Similarly, a drow cleric who has just reached 6th level (ECL 8) is eligible to reduce her level adjustment from +2 to +1. She must pay 7,000 XP, and her ECL becomes 7 (6 class levels plus her +1 level adjustment). When she gains her 9th class level (ECL 10), she can reduce her level adjustment to +0 (and her ECL to 9) by paying another 9,000 XP.

On the surface, this tradeoff may look like a bad deal. The drow cleric has now sacrificed 16,000 experience points, putting her behind her comrades in total class levels. Now, however, she progresses as if she had never had a level adjustment. With the self-correcting nature of the experience point system, she will soon catch up to the rest of her party, and will reach 20th level after earning a total of 206,000 XP (190,000 plus the 16,000 in XP costs). If she had not used this variant system, she would have had to amass 231,000 XP to reach her 20th class level (which is ECL 22 for a normal drow with a +2 level adjustment).

[Bront]

I've never seen those used in practice, but in theory they look fairly ok...

[Someone]

When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden

This may be true for caster type characters, but not for combat oriented ones. For them, the reduced hit dice are a big hit because his hit points suck compared to non-ECLed companions, but as they gain levels the Con bonuses combat brutes usually have compensate the diference in hit points, and the only real penalty is delayed access to iterative attacks and feats.

As an example, consider a 4th level human fighter and a 1st level half dragon/half human Ftr 1, both ECL 4. Both buy Con 14 and Str 16 before racial adjustments. The human has 40 hit points. The half dragon has 13 hit points. Attack bonuses will be similar thanks to the high str bonus, but the half dragon will do more damage thanks to that Str bonus and having natural attacks that can be used as secondary.

Later at ECL 10 the human has Con 18 thanks to level advancement or magic items. His hit points are now 117, and his attack bonus should be around +18 or a bit higher, with two attacks. The half dragon Ftr 7 should have around 100 hit points, also has two attacks plus his natural ones, and his Str bonus is as much as benefit as before.

[Bront]

According to this though, you can't buy off all three levels till L18, and the first buy off is at 9. Those are class levels too, so a half-dragon has to be ECL 12, and then when he makes ECL13, he simply looses the XP and drops the LA (becoming ECL11). Then he has to get to L15 (ECL 17), to drop the next one, and finaly L18 (ECL 19) to drop the 3rd LA.

[Someone]

True, but as the example shows the premise on which the rule is built is false for characters based on combat, very specially for those that offer a Con bonus. At lower levels they suck, but at higher they become better than a non-ECLed character.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Someone

True, but as the example shows the premise on which the rule is built is false for characters based on combat, very specially for those that offer a Con bonus. At lower levels they suck, but at higher they become better than a non-ECLed character.

Meh, you're still missing class abilities, BAB, saves, etc.

I'd like to get some of the heavier rules experts on it though. I've always pondered using it, but I've never been sure if it was ok or not.

[IcyCool]

I've used it in a game I ran before, and it was pretty much the only thing that kept the Drow warlock anywhere near competitive with the rest of the party.

[Patlin]

Originally Posted by SRD

Similarly, a drow cleric who has just reached 6th level (ECL 8) is eligible to reduce her level adjustment from +2 to +1. She must pay 7,000 XP, and her ECL becomes 7 (6 class levels plus her +1 level adjustment). When she gains her 9th class level (ECL 10), she can reduce her level adjustment to +0 (and her ECL to 9) by paying another 9,000 XP.

If you had exactly the xp to obtain ECL 8, this would put you at exactly the xp to obtain ECL 7. Under normal rules, this would flat out accelerate your advancement. With time based xp rewards, it's somewhat more of a mixed blessing. Either way, it changes the DM's math in terms of what to call a fair encounter for the party.

Given the betting going on in Detail as to my next character's life expectancy, this sounds like a good idea to me.

[Rystil Arden]

For high LA races, it is very helpful in flattening the power disparity, but for LA +1 races, it is broken as all hell--especially since we're letting them start at level 3. They just need to waltz to level 4 and then buy off the level adjustment. At that point, they will count as level 3 characters while being vastly superior. The only thing that stopped me from voting NO immediately is the presence of the broken-as-all-hell-for-LA+0 Warforged in Eberron. (Well, that and an IP ban for my last hotel, but that doesn't count).

[Solange]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

For high LA races, it is very helpful in flattening the power disparity, but for LA +1 races, it is broken as all hell--especially since we're letting them start at level 3. They just need to waltz to level 4 and then buy off the level adjustment. At that point, they will count as level 3 characters while being vastly superior. The only thing that stopped me from voting NO immediately is the presence of the broken-as-all-hell-for-LA+0 Warforged in Eberron. (Well, that and an IP ban for my last hotel, but that doesn't count).

Is that an actual No? Do you think there is a way to fix it since it works on one side of the spectrum?

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

For high LA races, it is very helpful in flattening the power disparity, but for LA +1 races, it is broken as all hell--especially since we're letting them start at level 3. They just need to waltz to level 4 and then buy off the level adjustment. At that point, they will count as level 3 characters while being vastly superior. The only thing that stopped me from voting NO immediately is the presence of the broken-as-all-hell-for-LA+0 Warforged in Eberron. (Well, that and an IP ban for my last hotel, but that doesn't count).

Would adjusting the first level this is available fix it? Maybe just adding 3 to the very first level this is available?

[Rystil Arden]

Come to think of it, I don't think it would ever be balanced in a Living World setting like this one. To preface that, I do allow this buyoff rule directly from UA in my home games, but that is because I know I can adjust and give cool extras to other characters so that everyone is having fun. Playing with your level 3 Human Fighter when there's also a level 3 Half-Giant or Goliath Fighter in the group who counts as the same ECL is just not fun in a game that isn't carefully watched and regulated by a GM with that balance in mind, since the Human will typically be rendered incompetent, and they will advance at exactly the same speed.

[Bront]

That is an excelant point, and I guess in a living campaign, it's not the same drawback, as you can always adventure with lower level companions as well, where your LA will be less of an issue.

I'm inclined to say no to this as well, but I won't to give any potential defenders a chance to change my mind

[Wik]

I don't like it either. even in our low-level games, LA wasn't too big a deal - while the Goliath had less HP, he could *really* deal out damage (and more damage means shorter combats, which means he loses fewer HP).

Buying it off with XP, to me, seems like you'd encourage some weird character options. Last thing I want to see is a bunch of strange MM3 characters, and very few human characters, because LA can be purchased off, so why not?

Since it's already been shown that LEW is fairly melee-centric, something that boosts melee characters isn't a good idea, in my opinion.

[Solange]

I'll retract the proposal then