Diplomacy for Paladins of Freedom

[Solange]

Rystil Arden suggested this.

Can Diplomacy be made a class skill for Paladins of Freedom?


(I'm going to have to fix Rapture if this happens)

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Solange

Rystil Arden suggested this.

Can Diplomacy be made a class skill for Paladins of Freedom?


(I'm going to have to fix Rapture if this happens)

I vote YES. To fight the forces of tyranny and rally the huddled oppressed masses into a force that fights for liberty and righteousness, Diplomacy is needed, even moreso than for a LG Paladin, who has the luxury of maintaining the status quo.

[Solange]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

I vote YES. To fight the forces of tyranny and rally the huddled oppressed masses into a force that fights for liberty and righteousness, Diplomacy is needed, even moreso than for a LG Paladin, who has the luxury of maintaining the status quo.

You hear that Galwynn Wik?

[Bront]

Blah Blah Blah Yes Blah Blah Blah...

[Wik]

Originally Posted by Solange

You hear that Galwynn Wik?

All I'm noticing is that you didn't need to go through four pages of revisions to get YOUR yesses. Damn judges and their favouritism.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Wik

All I'm noticing is that you didn't need to go through four pages of revisions to get YOUR yesses. Damn judges and their favouritism.

Maybe you need to show more leg?

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Wik

All I'm noticing is that you didn't need to go through four pages of revisions to get YOUR yesses. Damn judges and their favouritism.

The more complicated, the longer it usually takes. Frankly, the only favouritism I ever saw was allowing Gnomeworks' Learner class, and that required him more pages than any other proposal in LEW history. It just wasn't something we should have accepted in the first place, but he was a consistent and dedicated member who worked on it for years, so eventually the Judges just had pity on him.

[Wik]

Originally Posted by Bront

Maybe you need to show more leg?

That's a comment you're gonna wish you never made, Bront.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Wik

That's a comment you're gonna wish you never made, Bront.

Why, what did you think i ment?

[Bront]

Bump for activity and comedic value

[Boddynock]

Originally Posted by Solange

Can Diplomacy be made a class skill for Paladins of Freedom?

Sure - just lose Bluff.

Really, if the emphasis for a P of F is on chaotic behaviour, then Bluff is an appropriate skill - moreso than Diplomacy, I would have thought. If you don't want to play it that way, then swap Diplomacy back in - but why play a CG paladin in the first place?

Of course I recognize that the allocation of Bluff is a caricature of a certain Chaotic position but then the original conception of a LG paladin is similarly a caricature. I don't have a problem with a P of F having Diplomacy as a class skill - but I'm not convinced that adding additional class skills just because we want to is a good idea.

Edit: OK, I've just read the Holy Voice proposal and discussion, so I now see where the impetus for this proposal is coming from. I'm still of the opinion that it's not appropriate to simply give an extra class skill to the class but what about having a choice at character creation: either Bluff or Diplomacy as a class skill?

[Trouvere]

Hrm. A bit of a can of worms. Then we'll have people wondering why clerics don't have Sense Motive (I certainly wonder), bards and barbarians (and fighters!) don't have Spot (or Listen! poor fighters on guard duty), and for that matter, why doesn't the Archmage have Decipher Script when even the Eldritch Knight does? What the heck... the Archmage has Search and the Eldritch Knight has Sense Motive. I never noticed that before.

But... in this particular Holy Voice related instance, Rapture took Natural Talent (Diplomacy) at 1st, so she has it as a class skill and with a +2 bonus. She also now has 5 ranks in the appropriate skills for the delicious synergy bonuses. I guess if Diplomacy were automatically a class skill, she'd drop Natural Talent and lose the +2 - unless she swapped it for Negotiator or a +3 from Skill Focus (Diplomacy). She has made one diplomacy check that I can recall, though I don't think it had any in-game effect. The hypothetical replacement feat would need to be one that didn't alter any prior events in Aether - so no Weapon Focus (bastard sword)!

[Solange]

Negotiator would probably be the feat swap if it passed. I just proposed it because someone said to

Didn't I read where they made a class skill fix to another class or PrC from core?

Found it.

Horizon Walker
Class Skills: Knowledge (the planes) is considered a class skill for Horizon Walkers.
-Proposed by Bront

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Solange

Negotiator would probably be the feat swap if it passed. I just proposed it because someone said to

Didn't I read where they made a class skill fix to another class or PrC from core?

Found it.

We also fixed (maybe it was in LEB though) the Divine Bard, which was missing some rather obvious skills.

In general, adding class skills to the regular core classes is a no-no, and even adding them to the variant classes is something to consider before doing it (due to possible PrC violations) unless they are something that the core class had to begin with (IOW, Diplomacy as a class skill will not get the PoF into Paladin PrCs faster than a regular Paladin because Paladins already have Diplomacy. OTOH, if there was a Paladin of Gliran PrC that required Knowledge Arcana 4 ranks (level 5 at earliest) and we gave Paladins of Tyranny Know: Arcana as a class skill, that would affect the PrC's entry at its lowest level.

[Wik]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

We also fixed (maybe it was in LEB though) the Divine Bard, which was missing some rather obvious skills.

In general, adding class skills to the regular core classes is a no-no, and even adding them to the variant classes is something to consider before doing it (due to possible PrC violations) unless they are something that the core class had to begin with (IOW, Diplomacy as a class skill will not get the PoF into Paladin PrCs faster than a regular Paladin because Paladins already have Diplomacy. OTOH, if there was a Paladin of Gliran PrC that required Knowledge Arcana 4 ranks (level 5 at earliest) and we gave Paladins of Tyranny Know: Arcana as a class skill, that would affect the PrC's entry at its lowest level.

Yeah, it was the divine bard, when I was thinking of making a Jorasco healer.

I'm all in favour of allowing Rapture to take Diplomacy - it really does fit the character, anyways. It really doesn't hurt her progression, especially if she loses access to Bluff.

[Bront]

Bluff is something I see the Paladin of Freedom having though, as they aren't restricted by law, or the truth. The problem is that Bluff is not a good replacement for Diplomacy, as it means a Paladin of Freedom has to lie or otherwise decieve to convince people of things. and conversely, is less adept at telling people the truth.

Unlike Intimidate for example, which is different but allows direct usage in just about any situation.

Basicly, it comes down to the fact that Bluff is significantly inferior by itself to Diplomacy or Intimidate.

[B4cchus]

blah blah blah NO blah blah blah

Seriously, I believe the change from diplomacy to bluff is accurate for a paladin of freedom. Also, I'd like to keep the can of worms closed that Trouvere mentioned.

[Creamsteak]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

The more complicated, the longer it usually takes. Frankly, the only favouritism I ever saw was allowing Gnomeworks' Learner class, and that required him more pages than any other proposal in LEW history. It just wasn't something we should have accepted in the first place, but he was a consistent and dedicated member who worked on it for years, so eventually the Judges just had pity on him.

I think I probably spent 10-20 hours going over that proposal with him way back when.

[Solange]

Originally Posted by B4cchus

blah blah blah NO blah blah blah

Seriously, I believe the change from diplomacy to bluff is accurate for a paladin of freedom. Also, I'd like to keep the can of worms closed that Trouvere mentioned.

No complaints from me. I won't be upset if it doesn't pass.