Heavy Armor Optimization

[Solange]

I see a Light and Medium Armor Optimization. Is there a Heavy? If not, are there ideas on making one?

[Boddynock]

I don't know of a Heavy Armor Optimization feat - it certainly hasn't come up in recent discussion.

My first thought is that such a feat would be underpowered. Since the benefits have to do with increased mobility - reduced ACP, improved speed, increased Max Dex Bonus for light armour - there'd be a tradeoff for a dexterous character, who'd have to forgo Dex Bonus for improved AC. While that's always been the case for an agile PC who wants extra AC, the payoffs for Heavy Armor Optimization would seem to me to be a feeble restitution for losing however many points of Dex bonus.

Given the progression and change of benefits which exist in Light -> Medium Armor Op., it's unlikely that we'd go back to an improved Max Dex bonus for Heavy A.O.

Still, if you're interested, put together a proposal (I'd use the existing feats as a template) and float it. People will make their observations about it, and you'll get an answer one way or the other.

[IcyCool]

When I did the armor optimization feats, I didn't include Heavy Armor optimization because there are already existing feats for that in Races of Stone. I didn't know if we were going to include that material, so I didn't make any.

I should probably mention that at least one of the judges isn't a big fan of the Light Armor Optimization chain. So you might not want to use them as a template for Heavy Armor Optimization.

[Solange]

Well, Light Armor Optimization is IMHO the most powerful approved LEW feat that I've seen, and a must have for any light armor wearer, so I can understand that. My dervish is planning on taking the feat soon. I think at Level 5, which is the first free feat she has.

Medium Armor Optimization gives back some movement, which is nice, and makes medium armor interesting. I was just wondering if someone had an idea for a heavy armor optimization feat. To balance it with Light Armor, you'd either need to give max dex back, or just give a flat ac bonus. To balance it with Medium, you'd need something like reduced movement penalties or something.

Just curious. Not sure how it would be done or if someone had it out there already.

[Bront]

Maybe something like a lower ACP and resistance to criticals? Kind of like fortification enchantment, but maybe not as powerful? (+2 AC vs a critical threat, +4 for the improved version)

I think I like this better though. The normal one reduces the ACP by 1 and adds +2 to the Critical Threat AC, and the Improved one reduces the ACP by 1 once more and raises the maximum dexterity bonus by +1?

It means a slightly less powerful one gives way to a slightly more powerful one.

The only concern is does it worth with Mithril heavy armor, and my guess would be no given that Medium Armor Optimization works with that.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by IcyCool

I should probably mention that at least one of the judges isn't a big fan of the Light Armor Optimization chain. So you might not want to use them as a template for Heavy Armor Optimization.

There are 2, but we relented since it was already approved HAO needs to be interesting enough to make it appealing to make up for LAO, but I'd like it a bit more balanced.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Bront

There are 2, but we relented since it was already approved HAO needs to be interesting enough to make it appealing to make up for LAO, but I'd like it a bit more balanced.

Yeah, I wasn't a judge at the time. And Bront, I see with Vanitri that you've taken a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach as well. It makes sense. I would too if I had anyone who wears Light Armour.

[Velmont]

Guess which feat Rinaldo will take at level 12...

[IcyCool]

Well, it's not terribly hard to change the feat. But I see that the desire to change it wasn't exactly very strong ...

At any rate, I think the Races of stone feats lower ACP and provide flat AC bonuses. I like Bront's proposed idea, it doesn't sound too bad. Maybe a little weak, if anything.

[Creamsteak]

Originally Posted by Velmont

Guess which feat Rinaldo will take at level 12...

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (battleth)

[Bront]

Originally Posted by IcyCool

Well, it's not terribly hard to change the feat. But I see that the desire to change it wasn't exactly very strong ...

At any rate, I think the Races of stone feats lower ACP and provide flat AC bonuses. I like Bront's proposed idea, it doesn't sound too bad. Maybe a little weak, if anything.

Actualy, the desire by other judges to not change it was strong, so I decided it wasn't worth pursuing.

It might be weak compared to LAO, but 10% crit reduction is nothing to sneaze at, being nameless, it allways applies, so even if you are flatfooted, you know how to setup and wear your armor right, and eventualy your armor doesn't hinder you as much as it used to.

Let's max it out and see.

Mithril Chain Shirt with LAO, +6 armor, +8 max dex = +14 total AC (before enchantment, which is even on any armor.

Mithril Chain shirt without LAO, +4 armor, +6 Max Dex = +10 Total AC.

Full Plate with HAO as written, +8 armor, +2 Max Dex = +10 total AC.

Mithril Full Plate, while ideal, is the equivilent of a +3 enchantment on the Mithril Chain shirt, so I did not compare them. Again, granted, a +4 Mithril Chain shirt isn't too much less than +3 Mithril Full Plate, but it's a balancing factor, and the fact that the Mithril version may not apply to this feat anyway.

Mithril Full Plate with MAO... +8 Armor, +3 Max Dex = +11 total AC Bonus (And 30' move)

Just to keep perspective.

On a pure armor level, A Mithril Chain Shirt is better than full plate with both feats, but that does involve a high (though attainable) dex. With LAO, it's nuts, but that's besides the point, and admittedly does require a 26 Dex. HAO would reward a heavy armor character with a little AC breathing room, and the crit resistrance is certaintly helpfull for a character likely to be subjected to multiple attacks (As most people with Heavy Armor would be), and generaly facilitates them better. I guess that perhaps the feat should be a bit better just to help deal with the frustration resulting from the fact that Mithril is not an option if you want heavy armor.

And ultimately, I think the problem with LAO is simply that it points out an already flawed issue of dealing with Light/Medium/Heavy armor in the first place and accentuates it.

[Rystil Arden]

Yep. And I'll point out that I have a character with 25 in one of his stats, soon to be 26 in a few levels, so LEW does have stats in that range.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

Yep. And I'll point out that I have a character with 25 in one of his stats, soon to be 26 in a few levels, so LEW does have stats in that range.

How about constructive feadback at the feat we're discussing?

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Bront

How about constructive feadback at the feat we're discussing?

Reading your post, it reminded me of the LAO threads where people kept claiming that stats would never get that high, so we could just ignore the problem. As for HAO, it seems okay--as you mentioned, the biggest restriction is that it doesn't work with Mithral Fullplate.

[IcyCool]

I like the crit avoidance chance. 10% isn't much, but could be increased through the feat chain. Your basic currencies for armor are ACP, Max Dex, Armor Bonus, Speed, and (to a lesser extent) time needed to don the armor. You've also got weight and cost, but both of those would be wonky to mess with in a feat. I think Bront's approach of adding something special is a neat way to go.

Originally Posted by Bront

Actualy, the desire by other judges to not change it was strong, so I decided it wasn't worth pursuing.

Ah. Must have been a conversation I was not privy to. I didn't realize this was the case.

At any rate, I only mentioned LAO because the OP mentioned it, and I wanted to make sure he was aware that it might not be a good basis for creating a HAO feat.

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

Reading your post, it reminded me of the LAO threads where people kept claiming that stats would never get that high, so we could just ignore the problem.

For reference, see this thread.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by IcyCool

Ah. Must have been a conversation I was not privy to. I didn't realize this was the case.

At any rate, I only mentioned LAO because the OP mentioned it, and I wanted to make sure he was aware that it might not be a good basis for creating a HAO feat.

I think it was a good idea, and I like MAO, but LAO is unbalanced. The conversation I speak of was one where KO basicly said 'We won't revisit previous approvals' in the thread.

And it got brougt up again by others. I only ran the numbers to compare it balance why to LAO and normal armor.

But, I'd rather get the feat the OP was looking for refined. I am worried that perhaps it's not quite enough.

[Solange]

I like what Bront has written up so far. Maybe make it +3 for the first feat on the crit AC thingie, and +1 more for a +4 total on the second feat?

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by IcyCool

For reference, see this thread.

I saw what this originally said before the edit--don't worry, dude. I didn't mean you. You were true to your guns the whole time. I meant at the end when people other than you and me and Bront started posting, most of them said something like that

[IcyCool]

Well, I can understand that maybe Bront doesn't want to make the feat chain benefits the equivalent of Light Fortification (would the feat benefits and the Fortification enchantments stack?)

Maybe the feat could be designed along the lines of the Tactical Feats in Complete Warrior? So the feat could provide one of a few benefits (one at a time, with maybe a free or move action to switch):

* A fortification %.
* A small miss chance due to concealment if the feat user fights defensively (so as long as the user fights defensively, he is immune to sneak attacks). This is pretty potent though, hmm.
* ?

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

I saw what this originally said before the edit--don't worry, dude. I didn't mean you. You were true to your guns the whole time. I meant at the end when people other than you and me and Bront started posting, most of them said something like that

Thanks, and sorry about what I posted before the edit. Outside irritations spilling over into my posts and all that.

Today is a better day.

[Solange]

Fortification is a flat chance to ignore a critical, Bront's suggestion just makes it harder to confirm the critical in the first place, so they should stack.