Check Required Flaw

[Rystil Arden]

This is from UP--I paraphrase below

Check Required, -1 Modifier Flaw
The effect requires a skill check DC 10 + power rank in order to work. If the check fails, it doesn't work, but the action is still expended. The checkis part of the action. Normal bonuses and penalties apply. If you can't make the check for any reason, the the effect fails automatically. The check must be in addition to normal checks needed for the effect.

(Then there's an example with a spellcaster who wants to get Super Senses 4 for Detect Magic, so she needs to make a DC 14 Knowledge Arcane Lore check)


This seems a fairly flavourful and balanced flaw--you can't use it on something with too many ranks or else you won't be able to make the check, and if you spend that many points to boost your skills, you could have just put the points in the power to begin with and avoided the need for the Flaw. Further, enemies can drain your ability to use the skill and knock out your powers at the same time. It's mostly like Limited, except it is more cinematic/has a cooler comic book action style feel to have the character make a skill check to activate the power. Certainly it is more restrictive than many applications of the Permanent flaw, for instance, and it generally costs you more in total than taking the Action flaw to up a power to a Full-Round action.

[rgordona]

Could you clarify how check required works with permenant powers?

Also with a power such as flight do you make the check every round the character is in the air, or only on the round he tries to take off?

[Hand of Vecna]

I'm pretty sure the Flaw wouldn't work on Permanent powers. The description of the Flaw says "If the check fails, the effect doesn’t work, although the action required to use it is expended (so attempting to activate an effect that takes a standard action takes a standard action whether the check is successful or not)." Most (if not all) Permanent powers require no action to activate, so I'd say they can't have this Flaw.

[Velmont]

I've been thinking about that flaw, here four example of flawed powers:

Flight (Flaw: Wings)
Blast(Electricity) (Flaw: Need source)
Jump (Flaw: Check Required (Jump))
Magic (Flaw: Check Required (Arcane Lore))

So, here how each flaw affect the power:

Flight (Flaw: Wings)
A winged flyer need to be able to flap his wing. Wings need air to be usefull. All that mean the power become useless when the character is:

- The character is in the void (no air to support)
- The character is grapple, bound, snared (wings are tight and cannot flap)
- The character is paralyzed (flapping wings is a physical move action)
- The wings are cut

Blast(Electricity) (Flaw: Need source)
An electrokinetic using his blast power cannot use his power without a source of electricity, which mean:

- The character cannot use his power in the wild
- The character cannot use his power in undevellop region where electricity don't reach
- The character cannot use his power during a black out
- All electricity is drained

But these drawback can be removed if:

- The character have a battery (might have limited use in the battery)
- There is a storm

Jumping Kick [Blast] (Flaw: Check Required (Jump))
A character must make a jump check to 'blast' his opponent, which mean:
- The character is grapple, bound, snared (legs are bounded)
- The character is paralyzed (jumpng is a move action that need a physical action)
- The skill Jump is drained (harder to use but not impossible)
- Fail a Skill check
- The leg are cut

Magic (Flaw: Check Required (Arcane Lore))
- The skill Arcane Lore is drained (harder to use but not impossible)
- Fail a Skill check

-=-=-=-=-

Let's say you are using a power at rank 14 with a PL10 character. The DC is 24. Using this flaw save you 14 PP. You need to be able to have +23 to a skill to be always successfull, which you can reach with:

12 ranks in the skills 3PP
enhanced the skill with Enhanced Traits (12 ranks) 3PP.

Total save PP: 8PP.

-=-=-=-=-

Now, if you use that for Jumping Kick... I don't see much a problem, as there many way to neutralize it.

But for Arcane Lore, the fact is it a pure mental effect, that it is too easy to gain lots of rank in a skill... I feel like it is almost a no brainer flaw and is a lot less penalizing compare to other flaw I showed up there.

And for drain skill, it is pretty rare. Drain attributes is less rare. Drain power is most likely what you will meet, but if you are drain you improved trait, you most likely will be drained the power itself.

I could see it as a Power Loss drawback in many case, a flaw at some limit for some powers.

Anyone have something to add to it, I'm still open and I won't vote on that that early, it has potentil of be a good flaw, but has potential to be abuse too...

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Velmont

Let's say you are using a power at rank 14 with a PL10 character. The DC is 24. Using this flaw save you 14 PP. You need to be able to have +23 to a skill to be always successfull, which you can reach with:

12 ranks in the skills 3PP
enhanced the skill with Enhanced Traits (12 ranks) 3PP.

Total save PP: 8PP.

You can't do that--it breaks the cap. You'd have to buy 16 points of Intelligence (total 26, +8) and 15 ranks, costing 20 points. And if you lost a single point of Int or skill ranks, you'd start failing your power.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by rgordona

Could you clarify how check required works with permenant powers?

Also with a power such as flight do you make the check every round the character is in the air, or only on the round he tries to take off?

Every round, since you are using the Flight move action every round. If you have a Sustained power, you only make the check when you activate it.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

You can't do that--it breaks the cap. You'd have to buy 16 points of Intelligence (total 26, +8) and 15 ranks, costing 20 points. And if you lost a single point of Int or skill ranks, you'd start failing your power.

Actualy, the cap is total bonuses, so you can't get past a +15 period.

Nevermind. Apparently some bonuses simply apply as ranks.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Bront

Actualy, the cap is total bonuses, so you can't get past a +15 period.

You scared me for a moment, but I checked and this is not true. The PL limit applies only to skill ranks (and a few other things that say they count for the PL limit, like Attractive). Just glance at the example heroes and villains and you will see them going over +15 all the time (Gadgeteer in Knowledge skills is a quick and easy one)

[Bront]

Skills would have to be in the realm of realistic as well, and likely the action couldn't be reduced to a swift action (Like regeration automaticly happening every round type of thing). It requires enough time for a skill check, it needs to require the time for a skill check.

Attacking confusion to diplomacy or regeneration to concentration I can buy. Attacking regneration to Diplomacy or strike to Knowledge:Pop Culture I think would be silly (though ammusing).

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Bront

Skills would have to be in the realm of realistic as well, and likely the action couldn't be reduced to a swift action (Like regeration automaticly happening every round type of thing). It requires enough time for a skill check, it needs to require the time for a skill check.

Attacking confusion to diplomacy or regeneration to concentration I can buy. Attacking regneration to Diplomacy or strike to Knowledge:Pop Culture I think would be silly (though ammusing).

I agree. The example is attaching Knowledge: Arcane Lore to Magic, which makes sense. The point of the flaw is to attached a meaningful and sensical skill to the power, encouraging characters to have thematically-appropriate skills.

[Bront]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

I agree. The example is attaching Knowledge: Arcane Lore to Magic, which makes sense. The point of the flaw is to attached a meaningful and sensical skill to the power, encouraging characters to have thematically-appropriate skills.

Admittedly, the thought of someone negotiating with himself to regenerate is amusing... but yes, theme is important as just about anything else.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Bront

Admittedly, the thought of someone negotiating with himself to regenerate is amusing... but yes, theme is important as just about anything else.

I could actually see a possibility for Diplomacy for Regenerate--if the character has some sort of sentient and unfriendly power source trapped inside, like Naruto's Nine-Tailed Fox in the namesake show, it may be possible that the character has to negotiate with the demon/source thingy to get it to save him "Come on! I know you have the power to regenerate this body, and if I die, you die!"

That said, it would have to be very well thought-out, rather than just something tacked on--that example I gave adds interesting flavour and gives fun plot hooks and possible complications.

[Velmont]

From which book it come from (UP you told, but I am not familair with that contraction)

[Hand of Vecna]

UP = Ultimate Power

[Velmont]

Originally Posted by Hand of Vecna

UP = Ultimate Power

doh!

[Bront]

It was also in 1st Ed.

I'll vote YES

[rgordona]

Some more questions about the check required flaw which have occurred to me.

1: How does check required stack with containers. For example a character has a sustained alternate form with the check required flaw, presumably this would imply the check is made when the character changes form.

However the character might have only two powers in that form, Force field 10 and Strike 10, if they had been bought separately strike would require a dc20 check every time it was used. However because it has been stacked with something else there is only one check and the dc is 14. That just seems wrong to me.)

2: How does the flaw work with a power which has the affects others extra. For example you might have: Invisibility(Check required - stealth) but if you had affects others on then who should be making the check, the character granting the power, or the character using the power. This seems to vary with descriptors, in some cases it seems to make sense for the character using the power to be making the check, (especially as that is the character taking the action). However in other cases it seems sensible for the character granting the power to be the one making the check.

As a note it seems to be the case that most flaws when applied to affects others powers would affect the user of the power not the granter. eg Passive concealment would surely end when the user attacked not when the granter attacked. Distracting Flight would presumably mean the user lost their dodge bonus not the granter.

[Bront]

1) The check is to get into the alternate form. All powers in it are free from then on. I don't see a huge problem with this.

2) Checks are made by the origionator. Heal effects others, but why should the target need to make a check? Same with Invisible effecting others. The others aren't the ones who are creating the effect.

[rgordona]

NO

I just don't like this. It seems way to abusable to me, if you max the skill it is a good example of a flaw which has no downside, (Which are explicitly excluded as non-flaws in the rules) If you don't max the skill then it is either completely terrible or you might as well just take the unreliable 50% flaw.

For theme I think taking unreliable instead and justifying it as a skill check would cover it. (Yes it means that all ranks have the same chance of failure, and skill drains have no effect but how often is that going to happen.)

Spoiler:

Plus it seems to have the same abusebility as the action flaw on containers. Make the check once and you can have all the benefits until you next become unconscious. I was surprised to see there is no discussion of action flaw abuse here which I guess shows that most players are sensible so it has not had need to come up yet.

[hero4hire]

The skill to power rank ratio is to easily overcome for this to be actually limiting in many cases. I would approve it only on a case-by-case basis.

In Rystil's example above the DC is 14 which means the Mage in question would need a total skill modifier of around +4 for this to be an effective flaw. Most Mage's will have WAY more then that.

So except for the occasional exception to the rule I would have to vote NO on this flaw. Too easily abused.