Nested Arrays

[rgordona]

Nested Arrays have been discussed before but I think it is worth having a formal position so:

Proposal: Nested Arrays are not permitted in Living Supers.

Nested Arrays are where a power within an array is itself an array. I believe that nesting arrays is legal according to the RAW but it can lead to very complex character builds, also if taken to extremes it can give significant point savings on characters with very large arrays.

However there are some builds where nested arrays appear to be both thematic and appropriate specifically I am thinking about those with Metamorph and multiple Alternate Forms, but there may be others. I don't believe that banning Nesting makes anything impossible but it certainly makes things more expensive.

Characters with Nested Arrays: Circe; Martin/Magus, Mecha Musume, Million Masks

[Hand of Vecna]

I don't think multiple Alternate Forms would be nested arrays (arrays within arrays), it'd be an array of containers.

[rgordona]

eg See Mecha Musume:

There are 4 alternate forms, Tank, Sub, Shuttle, Fighter. The Tank Form contains an array, Hand Cannon. I think the other forms contain arrays as well.

So it is an Array of Containers and the Containers then contain Arrays.

[Rystil Arden]

I think there are plenty of times that nested arrays are viable, perfectly reasonable, and the right thing to do. I've created pregens for M&M one-shot con games where some charatcres have slightly-nested arrays where appropriate, and it works fine.

Thats said, I agree that Martin has a lot--it's hard to read. I have it rewritten to be a Variable magic that includes all that and more. Costs fewer points and has more options.

Also, pretty clearly, no fair system would ever apply an ex post facto effect on characters. Or at least, I know I wouldn't want to be part of one that did.

[Hand of Vecna]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

Thats said, I agree that Martin has a lot--it's hard to read. I have it rewritten to be a Variable magic that includes all that and more. Costs fewer points and has more options.

Not sure a VP would fit her concept. Well, Shapeshift, maybe.

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

Also, pretty clearly, no fair system would ever apply an ex post facto effect on characters. Or at least, I know I wouldn't want to be part of one that did.

D&D 3.5 did. Well, sorta.

I would think it would happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Hand of Vecna

Not sure a VP would fit her concept. Well, Shapeshift, maybe.


D&D 3.5 did. Well, sorta.

I would it to happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

I would it to happen, if the new ruling came from issues that arose after seeing an approved character in action. House Rules (and even Official Rules Changes) do come about after seeing wonky things in play and realizing "no, that needs to be changed."

Maybe if it came across in play (and then with the player's agreement, which should usually be obvious if it had problems in play), but you see how it can look quite authoritarian if you have a rug pulled out from under someone over theoretical concerns. It's likely that you can ruin the character's entire concept (Martin would be fine with a Variable Array, so no worries there, but looking at Mecha Musume, she would be totally ruined that way, and what she's doing seems pretty reasonable to me). Then again, I'm not a judge, so in the end, I don't get to vote on this. I don't know about LS, but for the other two living worlds, in which I am a judge, we do consider ourselves to have the mandate of the people (in other words, we try not to vote for a proposal if there is dissent from the players), so hopefully we will have at least that for consideration.

[Hand of Vecna]

To the immediate issue at hand, I AGREE with the proposal. While nested Arrays may be appropriate for a few concepts (though I cannot readily think of any, but just because I cannot think of any at the moment doesn't mean there aren't any), I do agree that it can lead to very complex character builds & can give significant (Munchkin-y so) point savings on characters with very large arrays/nests. I feel that eliminating this possibility (and saving Judge headaches) at the expense of the loss of a few concepts is fair.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Hand of Vecna

To the immediate issue at hand, I AGREE with the proposal. While nested Arrays may be appropriate for a few concepts (though I cannot readily think of any, but just because I cannot think of any at the moment doesn't mean there aren't any), I do agree that it can lead to very complex character builds & can give significant (Munchkin-y so) point savings on characters with very large arrays/nests. I feel that eliminating this possibility (and saving Judge headaches) at the expense of the loss of a few concepts is fair.

So what about the flip-side? Mecha Musume has huge arrays nested as alts, but what if you just have one tiny alt in an otherwise normal alternate power.

For instance, let's say you had a Mystic who looked like this:

Spirit Speaking--
-Speak to the Air Spirit:
*Some stuff that is always true when speaking to the air spirit
*Air Control OR Blast
-Speak to the Fire Spirit:
Etc


Or to use Sierra as an example, she has a big one with a lot conserved and then a Blast/Strike alt depending on if she's in melee

[Hand of Vecna]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

So what about the flip-side? Mecha Musume has huge arrays nested as alts, but what if you just have one tiny alt in an otherwise normal alternate power.

For instance, let's say you had a Mystic who looked like this:

Spirit Speaking--
-Speak to the Air Spirit:
*Some stuff that is always true when speaking to the air spirit
*Air Control OR Blast
-Speak to the Fire Spirit:
Etc


Or to use Sierra as an example, she has a big one with a lot conserved and then a Blast/Strike alt depending on if she's in melee

Those are still alternate powers within alternate powers, arrays within arrays. Tiny or large, I vote that they should not be allowed.

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by Hand of Vecna

Those are still alternate powers within alternate powers, arrays within arrays. Tiny or large, I vote that they should not be allowed.

I know that it is--I'm just pointing out that a minor change like that would not lead to a complex build or cause a headache for anyone as well as giving some examples of where it seems natural.

[rgordona]

Originally Posted by Rystil Arden

For instance, let's say you had a Mystic who looked like this:
Spirit Speaking--
-Speak to the Air Spirit:
*Some stuff that is always true when speaking to the air spirit
*Air Control OR Blast
-Speak to the Fire Spirit:
Etc

To me this is worse than the large alternate arrays. It is pure point shaving and should be:
-Speak to North Wind:
*Air Spirit Stuff
*Blast (Icey Wind)
-Speak to South Wind:
*Air Spirit Stuff
*Air Control
-Speak to Fire Spirit:
*Etc

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by rgordona

To me this is worse than the large alternate arrays. It is pure point shaving and should be:
-Speak to North Wind:
*Air Spirit Stuff
*Blast (Icey Wind)
-Speak to South Wind:
*Air Spirit Stuff
*Air Control
-Speak to Fire Spirit:
*Etc

Pure point shaving? The several gigantic arrays save far more points than this--with the several big arrays, you wind up receiving a bonus multiplier on all of your character's points. In this arrangement, you save 1 point, and it makes logical sense to do it this nested way because so much of it is preserved (in Sierra's case, only tiny parts of the power is alted, in one case only 5 points out of over 100). It's silly and a bit ridiculous to make two gigantic alternate powers that share 95% of their contents but differ in minutiae, and this is where the minor alt inside the alt makes a lot of sense.

[rgordona]

Why I think this is pure shaving is based on how I see such characters as being built.

I am going to build a character he speaks with elemental spirits, I decide that Air, Water, Earth and Fire are likely candidates so I build 4aps; one for each spirit.

Now to fit neatly in an array they all ought to have the same cost. But after I stat out my four powers I realise that the air power is one point short of the total I am aiming for. I want to be efficient (and not using that point would be a waste of about 1% of 1 pp) so I try and think of something I can add into the air power to fill that last PP.

Then it hits me I can give one power in my set of air powers an AP, that will fill my last point. And even better I get 20 more points for a completely new power for the price of 1 pp in one AP slot that I was struggling to think of something appropriate to do with.

Spoiler:

(I was trying to list all the characters that would be affected by such a ruling; not necessarily abusers so that everyone could look and see actual examples.)

Sierra and milion Masks only saved one point. [IICC]

I think Martin/Magus saved 11 by nesting, about 10% of his total.

It is much harder to calculate on Mecha I think the saving is about 4pp

[Rystil Arden]

Originally Posted by rgordona

Why I think this is pure shaving is based on how I see such characters as being built.

I am going to build a character he speaks with elemental spirits, I decide that Air, Water, Earth and Fire are likely candidates so I build 4aps; one for each spirit.

Now to fit neatly in an array they all ought to have the same cost. But after I stat out my four powers I realise that the air power is one point short of the total I am aiming for. I want to be efficient (and not using that point would be a waste of about 1% of 1 pp) so I try and think of something I can add into the air power to fill that last PP.

Then it hits me I can give one power in my set of air powers an AP, that will fill my last point. And even better I get 20 more points for a completely new power for the price of 1 pp in one AP slot that I was struggling to think of something appropriate to do with.

Spoiler:

(I was trying to list all the characters that would be affected by such a ruling; not necessarily abusers so that everyone could look and see actual examples.)

Sierra and milion Masks only saved one point. [IICC]

I think Martin/Magus saved 11 by nesting, about 10% of his total.

It is much harder to calculate on Mecha I think the saving is about 4pp

Martin's an edge case--he's getting a rebuild when I have time based on a Variable array instead. If we ignore him, then, for the moment. For the others, I just have to say--Why is this a problem? Why would propose an amendment to ban something that is saving people 1-4 points and is a build that fits the concept better? (having just one means you can do things that affect that one alt and affect all the nested alts together).

[hero4hire]

Honestly all of those characters have been a pain in the rear when it comes to the approval process. (Not the players mind you but the builds themselves)
Overly complex characters, while a measure of skill on the players’ part, are hard to Gamemaster, and often are unbalanced in the scope of their abilities.

With an eye toward simplifying and streamlining the approval process and alleviating some gameplay headaches, I will vote YES to Nested Arrays are not permitted in Living Supers. Adding versatility to versatility is a bit too much and frankly the builds are a pain to look at and adjudicate.

[Salix]

Originally Posted by hero4hire

Honestly all of those characters have been a pain in the rear when it comes to the approval process. (Not the players mind you but the builds themselves)
Overly complex characters, while a measure of skill on the players’ part, are hard to Gamemaster, and often are unbalanced in the scope of their abilities.

With an eye toward simplifying and streamlining the approval process and alleviating some gameplay headaches, I will vote YES to Nested Arrays are not permitted in Living Supers. Adding versatility to versatility is a bit too much and frankly the builds are a pain to look at and adjudicate.

Yes based on the arguments above.

[Raylis]

I agree with this. The main thing that is keeping me from voting is the subject of Alternate Form (shapeshift/metamorph).

To me, an array within a Shapeshift power is a different breed of cat, as stating out various shapeshift forms that may contain a plausable array (i.e. a machine form with different blaster settings, an elemental with different attacks based off of the same source ect.)

Would we consider a shapeshift form that has an array in one of the forms as having a nested array and ergo illegal if this proposal passes?

[rgordona]

I would. (Consider that this proposal would make arrays within shapeshift illegal)

That is also my main concern with it. That it would make thematic arrays within alternate forms illegal. So Bear Form can not have: Bear Hug - Stun; AP Slashing Claws - Penetrating Strike, if there is another form, Monkey Form.

I think the rule needs to be consistent which is why I think they would be included, but I do agree there are times when it is totally appropriate.

(I am glad I proposed this and so do not get to vote.)

[Hand of Vecna]

An array in shapeshift thing isn't really a Nested Array, it's just an Array built via a Variable Power.

However, since Shapeshift and other variable pools essentially contains all possible Alternate Powers for its point value and descriptors anyway, and since it's so easy to switch them around (especially if the Action is bought up), then there's really no need for having an Array within one.

[rgordona]

I think the problem is when the action is sold down, so it takes 1 round or more to change between forms. In which case it is perfectly understandable to want alternate powers within the powers bought. It might take a full minute to change from Bear Form to Monkey Form but it should only be a free action for the bear to stop swinging with his claws and go for a bite attack or a hug instead.

I think this is even more true when using metamorph to have a limited set of forms rather than a truly variable power like shapeshift.

That said I think a complete stop is justified for the sake of consistency. But a quotation from ATT to give second thoughts:

Originally Posted by Paragon

Steve's design philosophy was that he wasn't going to prevent abuses by making things that should be doable undoable.