And that Ben, man oh man. At this point I'm pretty convinced that there are two bad guys against each other, Ben and Charles, with no real good guy.
That's what I've been going with for a while now. Both despicable, and both deserve a rather nasty comeuppance.
In fact, based on the actions the characters have shown throughout all the seasons of Lost so far, nothing will convince me otherwise. (There's no way they could present some sort of lame 'turnaround' of either of those characters, with a "oh, he's been doing good the whole time" - at least, not without me throwing up on the TV and turning off Lost for good/badmouthing it whenever it should happen to come up.)
Pretty much anyone related to The Others in any way (which both Ben and Charles certainly are) deserves a horrendous end.
Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?
As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?
It seemed apparant to me that when Ben showed up he DID want Lock alive, but as always it was strictly for Bens own purposes. Ben is well and truly a pathological liar. He lies even when he has no reason to. Never tells the full truth when a sliver will do. If he tells John that it's vital that he survive then he's telling the truth - but only to a degree. BEN wanted John alive at that moment.
Its fascinating then that the mere mention of Eloise Hawking is like flipping a light switch in Bens brain. The payoff for WHY he actually did it is obviously yet to come, but clearly it was important to Ben that these two have no contact. Suddenly that became vastly more important (to Ben) than keeping Locke alive. It IS possible to surprise Ben. Ben doesn't know everything - he just lies so much it's impossible to tell. He seemed surprised at the mention of Hawkings name. Either it's surprise that Locke knew of her existence, or surprise that she DID exist as if Ben thought she was dead. The latter seems more likely to me. But clearly the exchange of information between those two would be VERY bad for Ben and killing Locke was done without a moments hesitation at that point.
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As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.
Yeah, The Others are not all evil as far as I can tell. At worst they are simply dupes and while someone like Ben is their active leader who can really blame them for constantly doing bad things? Ben has REPEATEDLY duped Losties into following him and believing his lies - how can you blame The Others for doing likewise?
These looks we've gotten lately at past snapshots of The Others I think illustrates clearly that they are not inherently evil. As you say, Richard is quite enigmatic, Ben is CLEARLY not a good guy, Widmore seems only slightly less so, but the rest of The Others don't seem to be such a bad lot, especially out from under the direct influence of certain leaders and indoctrination.
__________________ Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.
"Other than the matter of me doing a good deal of extemperaneous creation in play sessions, I am not a paricularly notable Game Master " E.G.G.
"Who says I can't?"
"The man in the funny hat..."
Last edited by Man in the Funny Hat; 26th February 2009 at 11:16 PM..
Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?
Another thing to consider: would the island have allowed Locke to kill himself? (Remember Michael's failed attempts.)
My guess: Yeah, maybe. Especially if the island had already decided it would bring him back from the dead.
__________________ "I have filth fever...." "I have slimy doom...." "I have Great Red Ringwyrm!!!"
The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?
Remember what Jacob/Christian said when John asked why he had to kill himself? "That's why they call it a sacrifice."
I think Ben knew that John was supposed to kill himself, and did all that he could to prevent it- up to and including performing the deed himself, so that Locke couldn't perform the selfless act of suicide for whatever purpose Ben and/or Richard had in mind. Same reason (IMO) Widmore wanted to keep Locke from killing himself (and likely would have had Abaddon kill Locke).
(Offhand, I'm guessing there is some kind of power in the sacrifice, and neither Ben nor Widmore have ever had the kind of level of belief and dedication to perform the sacrifice that would allow themselves to return to the island. Thus, both men decided instead to sacrifice Locke so that they could achieve the same- and both were doing their best to ensure that they- and not the other- were the ones to be best placed to take advantage.)
In fact, that's the only thing about this episode that really bugged me- that we see John, and he seems to have finally achieved some real level of growth; he is open about his relationship and feelings for Helen for the first time*; he accepts the wheelchair with only slight reluctance for the first time; he is unwilling to pull Walt out of his life and put him back on the island.
Then he goes and blows it all by chickening out of suicide and- far worse- once more believing Ben (who has tried to kill him before and has openly resented him from day one). Not that I'm saying suicide is in any way a brave act or anything, but in the context of the story that is developing on this show, and in the arc of Locke's character- it is the proper thing to do, and he once more shows a weakness as the leader he is supposed to be developing into since Season 1.
Otherwise- a great episode.
(*I am of a mind that either Widmore/Abaddon had Helen killed or else faked the tombstone in order that Locke wouldn't have any kind of change of heart about returning to the island. Abaddon is supposed to get Locke to where he is "supposed" to go, after all- so it wouldn't do to have their sacrificial lamb decide not to go anywhere.)
(As for Hawking's name that seemed to catch Ben by surprise- I assume he just didn't know that she was the key to returning people to the island for some reason. He clearly knew her from before Locke mentioned her, but I think maybe he just hadn't realized her link; he didn't even know of her connection to Faraday until recently either.)
__________________ "The greatest trick Doug Henning ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." - Keyser Soze
I thought it was a pretty good character piece about Locke, especially visiting the others as reflections of himself. On the other hand, I really do not get why people leave Ben alive. Locke, if he had any brains, would just kill Ben while he's down. It won't happen, unfortunately, but it's what should happen.
Going back to the reflections of Locke, I'd break it down as follows:
Sayid as his desire to help people, Hurley as his self-doubt, Helen as his love (and possibly attachment to an old life), Kate as his forgiving side, and Jack as his rage. I'm not quite sure where Walt fits... maybe the supernatural, or maybe just his naivety/innocence. Ben does not represent anything; Ben came to Locke.
Well, it was pretty clear to me from the moment that Ben interceded to stop Locke from doing himself in that he was up to something nasty. The only question I have is: why was Hawking's name the trigger? What about her involvement made Ben decide he had to kill Locke, or was he planning it from the beginning? In that case, why was it important that HE do it, rather than allowing Locke to?
I think this point is being overanalyzed. Ben needed Locke dead, but he also needed to pump Locke for the intel on what Whidmore's full plan was. He may or may not know Hawking, but he seems not to have known some vital detail like her current location or that she was the final go-to person.
And yeah, Locke's a bit of a 'tard for trusting the guy who shot him and left him to die in a pit full of other people whose deaths he's also responsible for.
But seeing Locke stand there with that cord tied around his neck for several minutes was pretty funny.
Last edited by Felon; 27th February 2009 at 05:46 AM..
I like the theory that Ben wanted to prevent Locke from making a sacrifice. It fits. But there is another thought...
Ben is envious of Locke, who is the new anointed leader and already seems to have a closer relationship with Jacob/Christian than Ben. Ben first tried killing Locke, but that didn't take.
Now he seems determined to replace Locke. Locke is told to move the island...Ben turned the wheel instead. Locke is told to get everyone back to the island and visit Mrs. Hawkings, Ben instead kills Locke and does it himself.
And yes, Ben is a pathological liar. Even when he's telling the truth, you can feel eight other lies trying to get out. He may be one of the best characters EVER on TV.
I also agree that neither Widmore nor Ben are "good guys;" they want the island for their own personal reasons. I'm not yet sure if it is power/wish-fulfillment, wealth, or what, but they both have personal motives.
As for anyone related to the Others deserving of a horrible end: I'm not convinced this is the case for many of them. Many of the nameless members don't seem to have done anything wrong. And Richard remains an enigma. Juliette seems to have gone over to the other side, so I'm hoping she's exempted.
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Originally Posted by Man in the Funny Hat
Yeah, The Others are not all evil as far as I can tell. At worst they are simply dupes and while someone like Ben is their active leader who can really blame them for constantly doing bad things? Ben has REPEATEDLY duped Losties into following him and believing his lies - how can you blame The Others for doing likewise?
These looks we've gotten lately at past snapshots of The Others I think illustrates clearly that they are not inherently evil. As you say, Richard is quite enigmatic, Ben is CLEARLY not a good guy, Widmore seems only slightly less so, but the rest of The Others don't seem to be such a bad lot, especially out from under the direct influence of certain leaders and indoctrination.
Meh. From Seaon 1 onwards it has long since been clearly shown that the vast majority of The Others - especially when away from their camp - are insanely violent. They attack, brutalize, and kill without a thought, and their companions seem to have no issues with it. The suggestion that those were all actions of dupes is completely lost on me, and doesn't hold an ounce of water AFAIC.
Maybe people have forgotten, or worse, have been desensitized thanks to other shows, or whatever. But statements that The Others aren't violent lunatics are approaching Planet Zbornak material here, so all I can do is shake my head confusingly at such an alien thought and move on.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
My point is it's not clear to me who knows what among the others. Some, like Tom and Ethan, clearly knew a lot and did very bad things. It's not clear to me that this goes for everyone. And again, we've seen from some of Juliette's flashbacks that much of what she did on behalf of Ben was largely coerced.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
Remember what Jacob/Christian said when John asked why he had to kill himself? "That's why they call it a sacrifice."
Someone can look it up if they tivoed it but I don't think anyone told Locke he had to kill himself.
Christian actually said, I think, "you have to die."
And that is a clue about how Locke died. And in what manner and by whom.
True, I suspected that Ben would talk John into an attempt at suicide, or maybe an attempt around it. From the previews last week.
But I'm not sure Hawking was the trigger for what Ben did. That is that her name was the motivation for killing Locke. And I'm not sure at all that he resents Locke. The single instances in which I have noticed Ben appear to speak to the truth is to the Dead. If that is true, and he does speak truth to the dead then he will miss Locke. Then again if he does not speak truth to the dead, and speaks to them in the same way as the living then he will not miss Locke because he knows it wasn't the last time he would see him.
Like I said last week this would be all about the beginning of "resurrections." Including I suspect eventually far more than John's resurrection.
The question is, does Ben already anticipate this?
And does it color his actions?
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I think Ben knew that John was supposed to kill himself, and did all that he could to prevent it- up to and including performing the deed himself, so that Locke couldn't perform the selfless act of suicide for whatever purpose Ben and/or Richard had in mind. Same reason (IMO) Widmore wanted to keep Locke from killing himself (and likely would have had Abaddon kill Locke).
(Offhand, I'm guessing there is some kind of power in the sacrifice, and neither Ben nor Widmore have ever had the kind of level of belief and dedication to perform the sacrifice that would allow themselves to return to the island. Thus, both men decided instead to sacrifice Locke so that they could achieve the same- and both were doing their best to ensure that they- and not the other- were the ones to be best placed to take advantage.)
That is an interesting set of analyses.
Abaddon by the way is Greek for place of destruction or the terror or beast of of hell.
Names mean a lot in this series. Locke, Bentham, Sayid, Abaddon, and so forth.
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Its fascinating then that the mere mention of Eloise Hawking is like flipping a light switch in Bens brain. The payoff for WHY he actually did it is obviously yet to come, but clearly it was important to Ben that these two have no contact. Suddenly that became vastly more important (to Ben) than keeping Locke alive. It IS possible to surprise Ben. Ben doesn't know everything - he just lies so much it's impossible to tell. He seemed surprised at the mention of Hawkings name. Either it's surprise that Locke knew of her existence, or surprise that she DID exist as if Ben thought she was dead. The latter seems more likely to me. But clearly the exchange of information between those two would be VERY bad for Ben and killing Locke was done without a moments hesitation at that point.
Hawking obviously knows Ben.
So, it is possible Hawking and Ben are working together, Hawking and Ben are working at cross purposes, or Hawking is unaware of Ben's true motivations, and maybe vice versa.
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Sayid as his desire to help people, Hurley as his self-doubt, Helen as his love (and possibly attachment to an old life), Kate as his forgiving side, and Jack as his rage. I'm not quite sure where Walt fits... maybe the supernatural, or maybe just his naivety/innocence. Ben does not represent anything; Ben came to Locke.
That is also an interesting and excellent analysis.
Would have been nice to get an answer to how 2 weeks became three years since it seemed we didn't get answers to anything this week. I wonder what the significance of both those on and off the island lived an additional 3 years before they met again.
Where do we think Rose and Bernard are?
__________________ Certainty of death, small chance of success. What are we waiting for!
Loved this one, particularly the structure, the way it ping-ponged back and forth between 'three years ago'/three years later' in a storyline about people who were, until recently, literally unstuck in time --it's great to see a show really play with possibilities inherent in SF narrative. And for some reason it made me happy that Sawyer and Juliet had three happy, albeit off-camera years together as members of the Dharma Initiative (their self-congratulatory branding still makes me chuckle cf. "Dharma Merlot").
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
Loved this one, particularly the structure, the way it ping-ponged back and forth between 'three years ago'/three years later' in a storyline about people who were, until recently, literally unstuck in time --it's great to see a show really play with possibilities inherent in SF narrative. And for some reason it made me happy that Sawyer and Juliet had three happy, albeit off-camera years together as members of the Dharma Initiative (their self-congratulatory branding still makes me chuckle cf. "Dharma Merlot").
No doubt. And they manage in a single episode to create a new triangle that other series would require a season or more to develop. Kudos.
No doubt. And they manage in a single episode to create a new triangle that other series would require a season or more to develop. Kudos.
Ok, now let's think this through: We've got Kate in love with Sawyer, then in love with Jack; Sawyer in love with Kate, and now in love with Juliet, and we had at least the beginnings of a mutual attraction between Jack and Juliet a season or so ago.
Love triangle? I think it's more a love rhombus.
__________________ "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."
New romantic couple to write fan-fics about? The internet is pleased.
But it will not be satisfied until J.J. Abrams has Jack and Sawyer share a longing gaze (probably while dressed as furries at Hogwarts or something).
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
" E.G.G.
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