STARGATE UNIVERSE #7:Earth/Season 1/2009

[Truth Seeker]

Earth

The Ancient communication stones are used to allow a few crewmembers' consciousnesses to return to Earth to go over a risky plan that could bring the crew home.

[BrooklynKnight]

Originally Posted by Truth Seeker

Earth

The Ancient communication stones are used to allow a few crewmembers' consciousnesses to return to Earth to go over a risky plan that could bring the crew home.

Wow

Yea, just wow. These characters just dont come anywhere close to the moral standards that Oniel and Carter had. The issue was only brushed upon, but these guys....holy crap.

By the end of this episode I think I can say I finally am starting to LIKE Rush. And Telford is 100% in my "hated characters" bucket list.

[Wycen]

This one definitely reminded me too much of BSG, but I enjoyed those parts that weren't.

[Orius]

Yeah, Telford is a jerk. He's got too many issues with Young being in command, and sticking Greer in a makeshift brig seemed more of a power trip than anything else. Possbily if O'Neil is on the ball here, he'll make sure Telford doesn't access the stones, though Telford is supposed to be a regular I guess, so who knows.

I think they need to establish some protocols on how people are supposed to use the bodies they borrow. Whoever Chloe had is not going to appreciate that hangover. And the Young-Telford swap was certainly awkward. Eli however, seemed to take it fairly well all things considered.

[Fast Learner]

The sex thing was particularly inappropriate. Let's assume they used a condom: it's still possible that you'd make someone else be a father (or mother, in a different scenario) without permission. Or, say, contract AIDS. Super uncool.

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by Fast Learner

The sex thing was particularly inappropriate. Let's assume they used a condom: it's still possible that you'd make someone else be a father (or mother, in a different scenario) without permission. Or, say, contract AIDS. Super uncool.

Heh, well the last scene with Telford at Young's ex-wife's door . . . perhaps Young's inappropriate use of Telford's body will come back to haunt him.

Besides, don't forget the situation, people stranded across the universe and only able to come home briefly in someone else's body . . . yeah, people are going to make emotional decisions rather than appropriate ones.

I don't condone Young's use of Telford's body, but I love the writing and the story! Good people often do foolish things in real life all the time, good drama reflects that.

[YourSwordIsMine]

Whats with the scrub scientists they sent by way of stone? Where is Dr. McKaye? He'd have them home by now... or at least half the ship fixed by the end of the episode...

[LightPhoenix]

Overall, I thought the episode was mostly garbage. There were some decent moments, and I have to admit Chloe's drunken "I'm ****ing useless" speech" was at least truthful. I'll explain it more completely when I have a moment, but my biggest gripe is the the episode raised all these ethical questions, but never addressed them, let alone attempted to answer any of them. It was made worse by the all too short denouement, where there was an end to the story that didn't answer any of those questions while clearly coming to a conclusion (ie, Destiny crew much more in control of body-switching now).

[fba827]

Originally Posted by YourSwordIsMine

Whats with the scrub scientists they sent by way of stone? Where is Dr. McKaye? He'd have them home by now... or at least half the ship fixed by the end of the episode...

Dr. M. came down with plot sickness*.

(*plot sickness = sickness that takes him out of the action for the purposes of not breaking the plot)

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by LightPhoenix

Overall, I thought the episode was mostly garbage. There were some decent moments, and I have to admit Chloe's drunken "I'm ****ing useless" speech" was at least truthful. I'll explain it more completely when I have a moment, but my biggest gripe is the the episode raised all these ethical questions, but never addressed them, let alone attempted to answer any of them. It was made worse by the all too short denouement, where there was an end to the story that didn't answer any of those questions while clearly coming to a conclusion (ie, Destiny crew much more in control of body-switching now).

Interesting, that's why I liked the episode. Rarely, in real life, are ethical questions such as these "answered" or "properly addressed".

In a more traditional, episodic approach, like the first two Stargate shows, each episode would have an "A" plot, maybe a "B" plot that wraps up nicely by the end of the episode. But that's not the storytelling style used in this Stargate!

The plot points in this episode that are the "A" plot are that the folks at home in the Pentagon no longer trust Young's leadership and also don't trust Rush. In addition, they seem to have reasons unstated for bringing home the crew NOW as opposed to "later when it can be done safely". This isn't a new theme in the show, and it wasn't "answered" or wrapped up nicely with a bow . . . but the Pentagon's usurpation of Young's command with Telford brought it to a head and resulted in Young taking safeguards to prevent a future occurence . . . in defiance of Pentagon leadership, including O'Neil.

We have two related "B" plots with Young's relationship with his ex-wife, and the addition of Telford to the sordid mix, and Eli and Chloe's relationship. Both relationships have events happen that "move them forward", but certainly don't "answer" them.

And I love it!

[Mark]

Proxy-sex. What an interesting ethical/moral dilemma to introduce to the show. I think they will get quite a bit of mileage out of it.

[DreadPirateMurphy]

Am I the only one who was caught by surprise by the implied very inappropriate relationship between Young and TJ? Frankly, between Young and Rush, I can understand why the brass would want them off the ship as soon as possible. Add in the fact that the only IOC person there is obviously not in good graces with the rest of the organization, and it has to look like their top-secret super-ancient technology project is in the hands of the dysfunctional family circus.

Eli is a little creepy with his stalking, not to mention his fantasy about them kissing while in other peoples' bodies. Ick, ick...ick. Rush was dead-on about him needing to grow up.

I've liked the show up until now...but now I'm starting to worry that there isn't enough escapist fantasy in the show. To a certain extent, the Stargate shows have always been about the best of the best doing practically impossible things. It wasn't about identifying with the characters so much as rooting for the big dang heroes. Universe risks being just a bunch of unlucky jerks trying to stay alive long enough for smarter people to figure out how to rescue them.

[frankthedm]

Is it my 'on demand' service provider comcast ruining the picture quality, or are these episodes painfully lacking colour / washed out?

Originally Posted by Wycen

This one definitely reminded me too much of BSG

Just this one?

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

Heh, well the last scene with Telford at Young's ex-wife's door . . . perhaps Young's inappropriate use of Telford's body will come back to haunt him.

I'm wondering if Telford and the wife are supposed to be having an affair on the side too, if the writers are throwing in a lot of pointless sex just because, I wouldn't put it past them to stick something like that in. Especially with Young's indiscretion with TJ.

Originally Posted by DreadPirateMurphy

Eli is a little creepy with his stalking, not to mention his fantasy about them kissing while in other peoples' bodies. Ick, ick...ick. Rush was dead-on about him needing to grow up.

Eli's problem is that he's very much the newbie here. He doesn't have any experience or knowledge of stuff like the Stargate, alien tech, etc. I suppose he's a bit immature too, but I'm expecting he'll gain maturity through his experiences here. I think he has more potential than any of the other characers.

[LightPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

Interesting, that's why I liked the episode. Rarely, in real life, are ethical questions such as these "answered" or "properly addressed".

In a more traditional, episodic approach, like the first two Stargate shows, each episode would have an "A" plot, maybe a "B" plot that wraps up nicely by the end of the episode. But that's not the storytelling style used in this Stargate!

I think you're missing the point (admittedly half-assed at this point) I am making. Honestly, I think this is more of a fundamental difference in the way you and I see the show. I don't mean this as an attack; I mean it as a way of informing the discussion. That is to say, knowing how you've reacted to episodes, and how I have, that we have drastically distant takes on shows. I've noted, for example, that BrooklynKnight and I have vastly differing opinions. Our (BK and my) opinions are so different in fact, that I can tell if I will like something or not by negating his opinion. I've noticed a similar effect with you; we do not think the same. Anyway, the point I'm making with this spiel is that it's not accusatory; I think we just take different things from the show. It's the wonder of modernist thought.

I'm not talking about the idea that there need to be a tidy bow wrapped around the concept of the episode. What I'm talking about it is that the show raises concepts and questions, but doesn't bother to follow through on the discussion. What follows is a in-depth dissection of that.

The major thing we see in this episode, with regards to the concept of switching bodies, is Young using Telford's body to have sex with his ex (ex-sex ). That's an interesting ethical question - is it ethical to use someone else's body for pleasure. Note that we see this question echoed with Chloe (drinking), Eli (food), and Telford (command). That's an interesting question. In fact, I dare say that is the most interesting question the show has raised so far. However, what the show fails to do is further discuss that question, and it fails to posit an answer to that question. Some people might not be bothered by that; it's not an invalid opinion. However, some people think that the purpose of sci-fi (and fantasy) is to use fantastical situations to address moral and ethical questions. Regardless of your opinion, that is what is happening here - an ethical question is being raised.

I have to stop at this point and explain the concept of "discussion" and "answering" as I'm using them here. By discussion, I mean that the ethical question needs to be explored. Most commonly, this would be through the concept of consequence. However, I accept that this is a story arc, and that consequence is not immediate. Yet I disagree consequence is impossible to provide; in fact, it's my viewpoint the vast majority of shows don't utilize consequence. That's not really applicable to the discussion; I will assume that is not an issue here. How then can discussion be obtained? Well, in this case, the answer was provided - the characters involved know what is going on in the switch. That provides an avenue of discussion that was barely touched upon with Young's comment the first time. Yet we don't see that, and that's part of my problem with the show. One of the central tenets of crafting a story is "show, don't tell." Yet, we don't see Telford being pissed off, or Young. We don't see Chloe's swap responding to being -faced. We barely see Young (or Scott/Rush/TJ) responding to Telford's abduction, even in the B-plot. Showing those reactions is a large part of the discussion. Through the characters, we see the points of view, the different answers to the question. We did not get that here.

That leads me to the "answer." At some point, the story dictates that an answer be made to the ethical question. From a story point, the answer was that Young chose to restrict Earth's access to the stones. Yet, that's not really an answer to the ethical question raised. It infers an answer - that abduction is not okay, but drunkenness/eating*/sex is. Yet, that isn't explicitly or implicitly stated. Like the discussion, the answer is reflected in the characters' points of view. We don't ever see Young/Destiny/Earth make a decision; by extension, we never actually get an answer to the ethical question. We can only assume one. Wait, but isn't that moral/ethical ambiguity part of the show? Yes, of course. In fact, that's part of the draw - maybe there isn't a correct answer. In which case, the answer is that there is no answer. Again, that's something that isn't shown. In fact, the episode specifically denies that answer, in having Young deny Earth unlimited access to the device. That very point suggests that the episode is forming an answer, that it is positing the existence of a correct answer. That is redoubled by the lack of consequence, when O'Neill allows the "home trips." Basically, it's answer without consequence. That's what I mean by an answer - that there is an answer posited by the show, and that it is somewhat correct, and that there is consequence to that answer being correct.

So, coming back to the episode, we see an ethical question being raised. Specifically, what is the acceptable use of another person's body? What is glossed over, egregiously, is the discussion and the answer to that question. That is to say, we never get any possible answers through the characters involved in the story. We don't get any viewpoints, no analysis, no sides of which to take. Since we don't get possible answers, the show can't suggest the existence of a correct answer. Yet, at the end of the episode, the writing suggests that there is such a correct answer, in having Young resist Earth. We don't know what that answer is, because there's been no discussion of that issue. That cheapens the episode. Why bother asking those ethical questions if you're not prepared to discuss them? Furthermore, why bother to ask and discuss those questions if you're not prepared to make a statement?

That's something that BSG did - it would raise ethical questions and discuss them, and answer them. For example, the ban on abortion in the fleet. We're presented with the question, we're giving viewpoints (through Alosha, Roslin, and others), and an answer is given (the reproduction of human life trumps individual freedoms in the case of genocide). They did that in one episode. That's what SGU should be striving for, if they want to be compared to BSG.

That's why I thought the episode was crap. It raised a question, and didn't even bother to discuss it, let alone answer it. Was the episode a total wash? No, there were some interesting character bits (Chloe, Eli, Rush), some interesting stories, and I can't say I was disgusted with the end scene on Earth, all things aside. It moved the story forward. Was the episode at all successful? Absolutely not, if you're interested in the ethical questions. And really, what is supposed to set SGU apart from, say, CSI, if those questions don't matter? Is CSI an interesting show to watch? I think so, though the point is debatable. Does it really offer anything? I'd say no.

So what is really comes down to is whether I, or anyone, thinks that SGU could ask, discuss, and answer those questions. I think at this point it should be obvious my answer is that SGU can and should do that. That is, if that is the metric by which SGU wishes to be judged. By comparison to BSG, that is the metric that is being invoked, fair or not. And by that metric, tonight's show was garbage.

* The concept of Eli's ethical question is subtle. We see Eli comment how he gets girls because of his looks in the club. Yet, we also get Eli asking for all sorts of treats from his mother. One precludes the other. The ethical questions are then: 1) is it ethical for Eli (or anyone) to treat the host body like they treat their own; and 2) Is Eli in fact responsible for his own condition (in this case, extreme loss), or is that a problem with society?

[fba827]

Originally Posted by Orius

I'm wondering if Telford and the wife are supposed to be having an affair on the side too (snip)

When I saw that end scene, I was actually thinking that too "What if she had an affair with Telford before ..."

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by LightPhoenix

The major thing we see in this episode, with regards to the concept of switching bodies, is Young using Telford's body to have sex with his ex (ex-sex ). That's an interesting ethical question - is it ethical to use someone else's body for pleasure. Note that we see this question echoed with Chloe (drinking), Eli (food), and Telford (command). That's an interesting question. In fact, I dare say that is the most interesting question the show has raised so far. However, what the show fails to do is further discuss that question, and it fails to posit an answer to that question. Some people might not be bothered by that; it's not an invalid opinion. However, some people think that the purpose of sci-fi (and fantasy) is to use fantastical situations to address moral and ethical questions. Regardless of your opinion, that is what is happening here - an ethical question is being raised.

You're right, we see things differently! But that's cool, of course!

Keep in mind that while we didn't see these issues fully explored in this episode, we just might as the series progresses. I guess that's where my off-hand comment about wrapping things up nicely with a bow comes from . . . in "classic" Stargate we usually didn't deal with thorny ethical issues like we see here, and when we did, they usually got "wrapped up" in one episode. This show has an obviously different tone and writing style, part of which is that the story is taking it's time to move along. Some hate this, I love it!

With Telford usurping Young's command more than once, Young and Telford obviously have a history. Heck, it seems Telford has a history with several folks on Destiny! Also, Telford outranks Young (I'm pretty sure) and is acting either on direct orders or at least with implicit consent from the Pentagon. Young, at first, isn't happy with what Telford is doing, but doesn't see much that he can do about it. Note Young doesn't come out and say this, but I picked up pretty quickly in the Telford/Young body swaps before this episode. And of course on this episode, Young DID do something about Telford's abuses, he defied the Pentagon and decided to put limits on the body swapping.

Young sleeping with his ex in Telford's body just happened, and Telford got an eyeful with the mini swaps during the jumps into and out of FTL. And, of course, we see Telford at her door at the end of the episode. So, I think this one is going to be dealt with.

Chloe's decision to lose control and get drunk isn't nearly on the same scale as what Young did. If she had done that in my body, and I had to deal with the hangover the next day, I'd be pretty annoyed and might even say something to my superiors in the military, but overall it's a minor thing. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see any further exploration on that, especially since the scientist Chloe swapped bodies with got almost zero facetime on camera.

Eli, well Eli didn't really do anything wrong with his borrowed body. So he ate some food . . . so what? What did happen was the kiss with Chloe. That takes the "love triangle" between Scott, Chloe, and Eli a bit further and I think we see some further development on that.

And we haven't yet seen the events hinted at in some of the promo materials, that someone who swaps into Wray's body (who is a lesbian, which also hasn't really been explored yet) uses her body to sleep with someone on the Destiny. So the inappropriate uses of someone else's body will continue further into the season, and while each episode might not wrap up neatly, I'm sure that this will be developed and explored.

Your comparison to BSG is apt. They are not the same shows by a long shot, but SGU is certainly taking more than a few pages from BSG's playbook! BSG explored some thorny ethical issues, but some of those also took long story arcs and weren't wrapped up quickly. Give this show some time and you might feel better about it!

And I hope I didn't come across as dismissive or anything like that, look at the discussion spawned! It's all good!

[fba827]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

(snip)
Eli, well Eli didn't really do anything wrong with his borrowed body. So he ate some food . . . so what? What did happen was the kiss with Chloe. That takes the "love triangle" between Scott, Chloe, and Eli a bit further and I think we see some further development on that.
(end snip)

I was under the impression that the kiss didn't actually happen, it was Eli's imagination. But, I fully admit I don't fully pay attention when I watch (it's background while I do homework or watch the kids - which is the most I can do if I want to see any show at all ) so I may have misunderstood the scene.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't feel like a show has to give the answers to all questions it raises. It certainly doesn't have to give them in one single package. It is about "exploring the human condition" - what does it mean if we can swap bodies? What might we do with them? What would be the consequences? I suspect we will see some of these consequences in the future - but they won't provide us necessarily with answers. It just explores what might happen, the risks and the chances involved.

BSG did never answered all questions, either. The characters made decisions, yes, but they weren't always the right ones (to the viewer at least).

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

And we haven't yet seen the events hinted at in some of the promo materials, that someone who swaps into Wray's body (who is a lesbian, which also hasn't really been explored yet) uses her body to sleep with someone on the Destiny.

I believe that when Camile Wray thought she might not get a spot on the shuttle she said her goodbyes to a woman through the kino-time-capsule. It seemed to me at the time that the implication was that she was in a lesbian relationship, FWIW.