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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 10:52 AM
    I've always assumed that "3rd party" here means 3rd party vis-a-vis the relationship between WotC and the D&D player. The italicised relationship isn't really a contractual one - most D&D players don't enter into contracts of purchase with WotC - but is some sort of more amorphous commercially significant relationship between publisher and reader/user.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 09:34 AM
    I think you're framing these motivations fairly narrowly. Even if we just focus on these two, consider The Hobbit - the goal isn't just get money, but rather get this particular dragon hoard - or LotR - the goal isn't just to defeat evil, but to defeat this particular evil by performing this particular deed. I tend to find that having some reasonably distinctive character goal(s) makes it...
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Today, 12:40 AM
    It's a difficult question to weigh in on without specific knowledge about the rest of the build or the party. Are you primarily attacking from range? Does your party already have strong control options? These are vital questions, and there are many others. Without such knowledge, I would opine that Thunder Bomb might be more useful to the typical Sorcerer in the typical party (including a...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:27 PM
    Comparing Dual Strike and Cleave... Dual strike only has 1 in 9 or so chance of doing a whiff. (marking both) 4 in 9 of hitting both, marking both 4 in 9 of hitting one and marking both. Cleave has 1 in 3 chance of a whiff (which still marks 1) 2 in 3 of hitting both but only marking 1 Technically cleave may be better in the narrow case of minions only but 2 out of three times it...
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:45 PM
    I agree! Jeremy Crawford told us what the RAI is on this at least as far back as 2016. His more recent clarifications of his interpretation of the RAW doesn't change that intent. It just means that, unlike in certain other instances where the RAW was judged to have failed to convey the intent and was acknowledged as errata to be corrected, in this instance even though he admits that according to...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:35 PM
    Wondering what changes would make it work for the fighter, as it stands my fighter is likely to pick Double Strike... and reflavor it for the duo marking ability alone.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:23 PM
    Tome of Battle did manage to drip with flavor.
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  • MoonSong's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:46 PM
    I think second party is when a company gets hired by the first party to do official stuff. Like when WotC outsourced the two first adventure paths.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:59 PM
    Yup I liked it and the major issue I had with that one was it being bound in a class... I am of the free that puppy up opinion.
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:16 PM
    This, along with the Bardic ... Signs of Influence (or whatever they're called) from ... Heroes of the Feywild, I think, is among my favorite of 4E's directly player-facing social mechanics for creating the fiction.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:05 PM
    A Knight Hospitalier Theme - will of course get the hospitality practice. (and may end up with a discount on usage)
    263 replies | 26502 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:42 PM
    It occurs to me when something is being used directly as a story vehicle it should be handled as a skill challenge or similar and when its luster isnt so central and it has become par for the course let it simply be a practice.
    263 replies | 26502 view(s)
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Yesterday, 11:59 AM
    Yes, reviewing the other Rogue and Fighter At-Wills, I think this iteration makes sense and is balanced, especially as it has no effect on a miss, which, again, should be pretty infrequent for most Rogues.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:24 AM
    Now if I could remember which ones I contributed to... I could embarrass myself with how poor my writing was when I was in my youth.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:50 AM
    just rewatched a show featuring a very 4e flavored rogue called the Prince of Persia... Tree Top runner is sometimes known as Roof Top Runner
    263 replies | 26502 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:35 AM
    @Tony Vargas Here I go with an ironic comment.... Putting all the powers in common buckets has a risk of robbing class specific flavors that are enabled by and encouraged by distinctly described spells for Arcane Bards, Arcane Swordmages and Arcane Warlocks and Arcane Sorcerors since to me flavor is core to actual feel, bunching them will make them all feel ahem "homogenous"
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:22 AM
    Didn't 5e sort of do that? except since it didnt keep martial powers within a common economy it hardly matters.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:09 AM
    CBLoader lets me put my toys in Character Builder ... I have most of my martial practices and many new powers in there. (but it is plenty of effort to do)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:44 AM
    An attack which was grabby could be a component of the Use one against the other flavoring.... it works as a brawling fighter power too, I have used its flavor for a cleave before actually. I keep wondering about that idea of having a single by power source list of powers. And use class features to differentiate roles and styles.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 07:57 PM
    Hmm dual strike is better than I thought it was for the fighter with it not being a striker ... havent seen a Tempest fighter in play.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 06:56 PM
    Thanks for helping me look at this, I love the flavor of this.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 06:55 PM
    hmm went back and compared to other rogue at-wills... Riposte strike is one of my favorites in general. Balance wise this is a bit like saying splitting that effect to two additional enemies (you require two enemies for this to actually be valuable so that is a conditional value) and for this case will happen "right away" instead of giving the enemy a choice of not sparking the riposte.... the...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 06:11 PM
    I suspect the second "attack" or damage might always be a potential surprise for instance we are not always talking human minions. If you disrupted the Mordant hydra by slashing its head and made it spit acid on that nearby Bog Hag (or whatever they team up with). Its not a huge scarey amount of damage for level 18 -> d8 +6.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:41 PM
    How about this "Using one against the other" An enemies weapon becomes your own if but for a moment as you attack one enemy and turn their disrupted flailing to your advantage. At Will level 1 Attack: Dex vs AC Requirement your off hand must be free. Hit: 1 damage to target and you deliver damage to an adjacent enemy as though from from a basic attack by the original target.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:29 PM
    I can see it counting as an attack might mean it interacts with feats or perhaps another power differently however.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:19 PM
    Modelled after cleave it would be serious weak sauce for a striker.(wouldnt it?) Whirling Rend is the barbarian attack I was looking at... I just made the second an attack so it required a to hit roll and made it using the basic attack ability of the enemy instead of an off hand weapon.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:17 PM
    No, I know it's not quite Twin Strike for the reason you mention. But Rogue accuracy is usually much greater (like +2) than either the Ranger or Fighter, and so that second attack has a pretty reasonable chance of going off. Why not model it on Cleave or Whirling Strike, then? Perhaps have it be auto DEX damage, no roll. (Again, Rogue stat damage is usually higher (+1) than either Fighter or...
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:12 PM
    It isnt twin strike... twin strike always gets two attacks which is generally much better by the numbers this secondary attack only occurs if you succeed on the first one and may itself miss. The barbarians Whirling Strike has a cleave like effect where the secondary enemy gets damage but it doesnt require an attack roll however one gets offhand damage with some extra bonus Dex damage if...
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:02 PM
    Targeting REF seems overpowered to me; in a way, that's combining a Paragon tier feat with a multitarget version of Twin Strike. How about keeping it to AC and have the damage be (rogue's) DEX modifier to secondary target?
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 04:48 PM
    A zorro style rogue can start out fairly strong in minion scenario at level 1 there are 2 tempting dailies... Duelist's Prowess and the nerfed but still useful Blinding Barrage and as they advance though they have immediate interupts and reactions... that come in handy. Would this be over powered... The flavor seems like a good rogue one. "Using one against the other" An enemies weapon...
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 02:53 PM
    I think it is notable "when" an ability comes into the pervue of characters of a given role/class ... is it because of missing powers? or is it because low level characters of such and such role shouldnt be able to do this? Or some combo. Maybe the ability is intended to be a forte of a particular class, alah the barbarian or swordmage and minion trashing. Or even an intended deficiency of...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 05:26 AM
    OK now At level 3 the Paladin has an encounter power which becomes available called Strength from Valor AND which would be serious bad assery in a minion heavy fight generating a ton of temp hit points and taking down the hoards .... and at level 5, Fiery smite as a Daily becomes a large scale green flame blade... The classes at-wills do seem to suck wrt minions more than a little.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 04:29 AM
    While everything may not be directly about martial controller... it does overlap a lot more than people think.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 19th May, 2018, 04:27 AM
    I find minion scenarios important because it has some genre backing that I have liked since yea old sword and sorcery days of old. It has been nodded at by D&D in the past, but I think in 4e it started to finally be embraced as a longer term feature. Fighters actually do not have it bad dealing with minion scenarios they start out at least potentially alright and do get better ... turning to...
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 05:27 PM
    Note: This thread has some amazing people and some excellent game theory discussion. Party on, dudes.
    2644 replies | 65184 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 01:28 PM
    Ah, I see (said the blind man). My apologies. Oh, I meant that in unenforced or "flaws/troubles optional" systems, I often see players attempt to marginalize all potential weaknesses or ignore any flaws. So the roleplaying of flaws tends to be negligible and the "roleplayed" characters tend to be flat. One possible hypothesis may be rooted the system goals, rewards system, and incentives....
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 01:04 PM
    A shift as a move action after mowing down a pair of enemies also gets that visual too... Battlerager vigor will make things safer in general too.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 12:50 PM
    Then there is the shield in obvious use in the image at the top of the thread.... for that extra pickiness factor. (The Berserker looks around expectantly)
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 12:26 PM
    Yes. BW can play that way. Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy largely does play that way (not surprising, given its roots in Marvel Heroic RP). There must be many other examples too, that I just happen to be ignorant of.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 10:10 AM
    It allows a shift. Conan often seems to shift, if one takes the REH narration literally.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 10:08 AM
    I don't know why you are so fixated on endgame power levels when I explicitly said that is not typically what most people IME have in mind when criticizing level gating of powers. I have not met a player who wanted their character to cast Wish right out of the gate. I would say that the players generally want moderate levels of competency such that they have sufficient tools to sufficiently play...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 09:36 AM
    I'm already well familiar with Fate, Imaro, so there is no need to lecture me on it. Maxperson and Hawkeye clarified your reading. IME with those systems, "What flaws?"
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 05:13 AM
    Punishing charge would be nice except the end result is no minion will attack you during that move....
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 04:56 AM
    Fighter Encounter power I just made up Spinning Cleave. level 1 as per cleave, except the instead of "an enemy adjacent to you" use "each enemy adjacent to you" . It still seems a defender power not a striker doesnt create that wonderful benefit of every single one being marked that would might make it a must have.(?). I would like it to be reliable cause that would serious...
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 04:04 AM
    Inferior to a cleave vs minions...no? Hack and Hew with Invigorating would both provide temp hit points and be slightly inferior to cleave offensively...
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 03:17 AM
    Of interest to me is that the original 2016 ruling primarily addresses intent (RAI), which is how I prefer to align my interpretations of the rules. The 2017 ruling's emphasis on RAW indicates that even though these rules didn't end up as intended, it would be too much work to fix them now, so it isn't going to happen.
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 03:00 AM
    The ruling on War Magic is in the Sage Advice Compendium. The original ruling appears in the 2016 version of the compendium. Here it is: Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before? The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip. You choose when to take a bonus action during...
    340 replies | 10329 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 18th May, 2018, 01:04 AM
    Hmmm ? U2? The idea was to have something which was very "fighter" and which might be of value with a minion hoard of course the value is still not huge
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 09:44 PM
    Close the Gap, U2: Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An adjacent enemy marked by you drops to 0 hit points Effect: You move a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier. You can mark one enemy that is adjacent to you after this movement. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn.
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • darkbard's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 02:59 PM
    Sincere condolences, Russ. I lost my father a decade ago this week, and I know how profound a loss like this is.
    22 replies | 709 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 02:27 PM
    Thank you and Maxperson for your own readings. That helps. Though I understand your intent, at least presumably, I do take some issue with the bold, namely that it somewhat contradicts the rest of your statements. System and mechanics will inherently place limitations on how a player can play such that the idea that one system permits players to play their character "however they want" while...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 02:01 PM
    That is true enough, but my understanding of this hypothetical person in this scenario is that the reason that Fate rubs them the wrong way is because of how those troubles/compels run counter to the experiences they want for their character. But again that seems counterintuitive to how Fate works given how troubles are self-selected by the player for their character. In other words, we may ask,...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 12:38 PM
    I can't give you particular decisions, but I can give you tendencies. I enjoy elves as "fey" or "fey-kin." And also gnomes would fall in this category as well. I prefer having "half-orcs" as not half-anything but simply another variety of orc. I occasionally have the "half-human" assumption stemming from human racism explaining how orcs could be civilized. I like having halflings not...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 10:57 AM
    Is there a way for a fighter to immediately mark an enemy upon a successful kill... for instance I take down one enemy and a nearby enemy now sees me as an extraordinary threat.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 10:43 AM
    Passing Attack is a 1st level fighter encounter power that allows taking down multiple minions.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 10:09 AM
    The game experience can be affected by many different facets of both mechanics/system and fiction. We can look at the degree of system complexity. The way the system allocates responsibility across participants for establishing elements of the fiction, what is at stake in conflicts, what consequences flow from success or from failure in complexity. Will the game make the players work hard...
    12 replies | 363 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 09:45 AM
    I do mostly agree with your summation. My point of contention is how the Troubles/Compels are being characterized as hurdles for play. Troubles are self-selected to engender the play experiences the player wants for their character. So it seems unintuitive for how Fate works to say that Troubles are preventing a player from playing their character as they envision them. Why should a player be...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 06:36 AM
    My Fate-fu is finite (unlike my alliteration-fu), but this reminds me of how Marvel Heroic handles it: there is a Webslinging power-set which includes swinging and grappling as features; and an Exhausted limit which the player can trigger for a buff or the GM can pay to trigger, shutting down the power-set. That's a nice way of putting it.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 03:39 AM
    I am not sure whether that is satisfying or not the AD&D fighter was arguably inspired by Conan in a general sort of way hence why I have referred to the fighter in most of the thread, and they did indeed have some multi-attack capability which made them lawn mowers when it came to that games minion analogs... Although the likelihood of those type enemies showing up were in practice very very low.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 17th May, 2018, 02:04 AM
    It looks like if we build a Barbarian cough cough cough... seems like you might even accidentally be fairly badass against a bunch of minions. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Ana, level 1 Human, Barbarian Build: Thaneborn Barbarian Feral Might: Thaneborn Triumph Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 09:02 PM
    Not sure if I agree here. If you are having these sort of compels in Fate, then it's because you as a player have selected these troubles as things you want to experience for your character. Plus, you have Fate points that allow you to resist these compels. But Fate wants to create interesting stories and not stories where everyone knows everything, makes every dramatically appropriate response,...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 06:24 PM
    Way too likely...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 06:23 PM
    Nods on the Action Point use it seems very likely you would pull it out when pressed this heavily... At minimum it would make the cleave using fighter with a choke point a lot more certainty. Tempest Dance I think was I think the one I noticed... However that Dragon breath (Minor Action, Close Blast 3) seems a bit like cheating ;) and rather anti Conanish ;) without really heavy...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 05:58 PM
    I was looking to see what fighter level 1 Non at-wills would be handy vs 8 minions... more damage is just useless. There seemed to be one that allowed him to target 3 enemies... once.
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 03:44 PM
    My mind raced to how this would be done in Fate. There are multiple subsystems and rule variations available in Fate, but I could see that "Webslingers" may be its own aspect as part of a powers package (see Venture City), but with "All Out of Web" as a trouble, such that the GM could potentially compel the character to be "out" of webslinging fluid or needing to refill in order to heighten the...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 03:40 PM
    LotR also more accurately likely has a magical fatigue system (or even a magical skills one) rather than a Vancian spells per day one, so I'm not sure if this satirical comparison is apt. If one sought to simulate magic in Middle Earth, D&D's magic system would probably be one of the last systems I would consider. That said, the issue of "blowing his load" likely depends on the cognitive...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 11:28 AM
    It's not as if "cross-class balance" is even a concern in Fate anyway. I tend to agree here, and this is a concern that fellow players at my table have raised. It's entailed in "how often do I get to be cool?" That, and how leveling systems tend to gate when players can actually play their character concept. But there are systems out there that permit more out-of-the-box playing of player...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 11:05 AM
    The class imbalance arises because (absent rules variants that aren't the default for the system) a RM caster who uses a day's worth of spell points in a single encounter, or even a couple of encounters, will probably be mechanically more effective than a non-caster in the same circumstances. Solutions that I have adopted include not using adders and even moreso not using PP multipliers;...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 11:02 AM
    Fair enough. I said I believed it to be a minority preference, given that I don't know of anyone else ever raising it, although I've read a lot of threads about balance/pacing/recharge periods.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 10:52 AM
    I know trolls have regen, and I think the maths assumes that they'll get about 4 rounds of regen as part of their hp. If your warlock might miss out on a buff or two due to interfering PCs, then maybe figure it as 2 or 3 rounds? It doesn't have to be perfect! But personally I think monsters with the hp of an elite but lacking the action economy can be a bit underwhelming at the table, so if...
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 04:11 AM
    The lizardfolk's bite is an unarmed strike, so if you're a monk and attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can bite as a bonus action.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 03:46 AM
    The zine which I contributed to for several years... is what your post reminded me of, thank you for that reminder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarums_and_Excursions
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 03:40 AM
    Is Conan's favorite choke point mounds of your allies he already killed?
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 03:23 AM
    By the numbers can a lone level 1 fighter who did take cleave take down 8 level 1 minions? (And how badly would they eat one who didnt have it) Now without some choke point limiting their attacks I think the answer is still no... using the battle field well however makes all the difference. If he can choke point them down to only 2 attacking per round.... in 3 rounds he would kill 4 and...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 02:34 AM
    That and Dual strike which Mwao mentions really does not seem like a lot of powers out of the many ie you definitely have to select for it.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 02:27 AM
    Happens all the time in the wire-fu cinema I think... a whole group going down like bowling pins (aka I think that is well within the intended for monk prowess ;) ), At base I see you smash into one they flail back trying to maintain balance and their allies are disrupted too. Past a certain point I think you are probably right about ludicrous though I also think there is a middle ground. A...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 12:36 AM
    I don't see that an all-wizard party actually raises any issue of balance among classes! That's not what I said, and it's not true. You can push a non-encounter based system into encounter-focused play if you want (I've done it with RM), but you have to be prepared to handle (among other things) resultant issues of class imbalance. This is a different point in my post, and one on which I...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 16th May, 2018, 12:28 AM
    I don't follow what you're saying here. Lingering consequences don't, on their face, seem like they are aimed at limiting balance. Again, I don't see how these points about persistent resources/complications bear on a discussion about the way recovery schemes factor into cross-class balance.
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 08:13 PM
    If you are just going to unnecessarily insult me, Jeremy, and condescend to me about your 30+ years of gaming experiences, then it's clear that you only plan on offering the east wind for wisdom. I don't know who lobbed that cornfield up your rear, but you should have dislodged them before you decided to post your reply. But there are many other ways you could have gone about your reply before...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 03:12 PM
    For my own sake following here, how does this current discussion on encounter design/balance connect with the overarching discussion of what worldbuilding is for? And though some of you are indeed doing this, it may also be helpful to look more broadly at how other game systems (other than iterations of D&D) have designed their encounter/day assumptions for characters.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 02:31 PM
    Perhaps I am thinking that battlerager vigor needed a different kind of nerf (one that didnt undermine minion trashing maybe), but that is a specific case and I am thinking the more general sense.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 12:57 PM
    Lanefan, my concern about class balance of mechanical effectiveness isn't so much about the sort of idiosyncratic tactical scenarios you describe, but systemic effects. Eg if one PC has a whole suite of spells that s/he can bring to bear on the situation, while the other PC has only his/her wits, then (everything else being equal) the first PC seems to have a mechanical advantage. The typical...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 11:14 AM
    I agree with MoutonRustique. And I would approach this from the point of view of NPC/monster balance, not PC balance. So look at some other temp hp, self-buffing creatures and take your inspiration from that. If you think your warlock's curse-buffing is going to make it, functionally, have the hp of an elite, then you might want to give it a comparable action economy also.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 11:11 AM
    I've done a lot of "minions as swarms", for paragon and epic tier PCs. Eg hobgoblin phalanxes; hordes of demons; etc. At mid-Heroic I also had a hyena pack as a swarm.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 09:15 AM
    I'm not sure who you are positing this as an ideal for - a designer? a game publisher? an individual table, or GM? In 4e, without changing the resting rules, the passage of ingame time does have a "meaningful but not overwhelming impact on difficulty" - because of daily powers and healing surge replenishment. But the GM also has the capacity to shape challenge by using the encounter-building...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 04:29 AM
    Picturing Conan atop a heap of enemies... hmmmm I think that brings up some questions. One might be are characters (non mages) good enough at dealing with minions? 4 minions == 1 hero (not over optimized) ? Could/Should "normal" soldiers instead of minions be swarms and minions a step up from that?
    56 replies | 1322 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 01:52 AM
    I am considering a martial practice for Oaths of Fealty This practice binds both master and subject, when there is land in payment it is sometimes called thane hood. Mechanically it enables efficient "hiring" of soldier followers it is similar to the hospitality practice in that it is rather specific about what you can acquire and generally works only when you have other practitioners to...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 15th May, 2018, 12:31 AM
    From my point of view, the contrast is this: if the unit of balance is the encounter (scene), then it is possible to allow events to unfold as they do in accordance with the logic of play, complications, framing, etc, without this having any implications for mechanical balance across PCs (which is a feature of a mechanically heavy system like D&D). If the unit of balance is the adventuring day...
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Saturday, 19th May, 2018

  • 01:27 AM - TheCosmicKid mentioned pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    Then enlighten me. Give me one example of objective morality. I gave you six names to look into. I think pemerton mentioned a couple more. You yourself brought up Kant. You don't have to agree with them -- they certainly don't all agree with each other -- but if you want to be a meaningful part of this metaethical conversation, you do have to take them seriously. I can assure you, the professional philosophers who argue against them do. If you tried this "there is no debate" line on any of them, I can only imagine you would get the same response you've gotten from me and pemerton.

Wednesday, 16th May, 2018

  • 09:46 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Are you confused, or are you snarkily and passive-aggressively pointing out that they should have said "character" rather than "player"? And then, the following, rhetorical question: Are you sure your approach is a good use of anyone's time? I am confused. pemerton had made it very clear that he separates the terms player and character precisely, and had held others to this standard. He had the opportunity to correct if he was mistaken but continued without doing so, even doubling down on the usage. Given his statements on usage, I'm trying to work with him. I'm doing my level best to engage pemerton as he's indicated he wants to be engaged. And rhetorical questions are rarely a good use of anyone's time.

Tuesday, 15th May, 2018

  • 12:48 AM - Lanefan mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    As a complete aside: in our session this past weekend my character found herself in a bazaar in a strange city looking to purchase, among other things, a feather. pemerton , I thought of you... :)

Saturday, 12th May, 2018

  • 02:49 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...gn game theory who have likely developed their own set of jargon, but I am not. And perhaps this even points to a gap in the conversation. Yeah, but it's just my own vain sentiment. A whim. A want. A desire to go beyond what we have as it seems that we are too attached to these terms and all their associated baggage. I can't help but shake the feeling that these terms do a massive disservice to all gamers and their preferences. I think what does a massive disservice is that so many people are so afraid of any analysis that they have gotten themselves in a tizzy over Ron Edwards, The Forge, and GNS terminology (and anything else that has spun off from it) because that suites their purpose in derailing attempts at thoughtful analysis. The fact that no other alternative analytical theory and terminology has arisen, anywhere, says more to me about the community than it does about the analytical technique. Now, I'm not really a huge fan of GNS as a theory, or its terminology, but like pemerton, I have to have something to describe what I observe and think, and at least those are terms that we all have SOME idea what they mean, even if they're pretty flawed. Now, Ron long ago closed The Forge (its been 6 years AFAIK since posting was disabled there), and whatever he's said since then has been much more in the form of writing games as far as I can tell. I really don't follow the guy or care that much what he's on about now, but my guess is he got tired of the stink people raised and wanted to spend his time on actual gaming. Presumably someone else will come along at some point and establish some other analytical framework. When that happens maybe I'll use it, and maybe I won't.

Friday, 11th May, 2018

  • 07:23 AM - Gammadoodler mentioned pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    pemerton, Based on your expressed intent, there are some mixed messages included here. "It's not about how Paizo does it, it's about the one true appropriate way to define it by literary heritage". So, it's not that Paizo is wrong, but they're also not right? I'm legitimately curious here, where are you you trying to plant your flag, and for what? Dismissing Aragorn as being a ranger kinda wasn't the point, though I'm perfectly willing to stand by it (There was a lot of running or hiding from no-win situations rather than head-on confrontations with them in honorable combat; it wasn't Aragorn solo on the bridge with the balrog). I'm sure there is a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B here. The larger point is that as, king, he makes the rules, so it's not like he has to really concern himself with the law. I may be way off base, but I suspect that most GMs wouldn't immediately allow one of their PCs to include "rightful king" in their backstory without some significant cautiona...

Tuesday, 8th May, 2018


Saturday, 5th May, 2018

  • 04:16 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...m myself, so I have a fairly good idea. Even if we are less harsh in our analysis, its still hard to find a game that REALLY lives up completely to your standards, because it means there virtually isn't going to be any sort of backstory. I mean, your problem now is actually that story creeps in so easily, and its so hard not to draw it along and help it happen. So, I don't want to be argumentative with you, I think your commentary is pretty fair and its not like its ridiculous or anything. I do get what you are saying. I think its, again, one of those things where there's a degree of truth in what different people say. Maybe nobody is precisely correct all the time. I think a built world implies a lot of things, including plots, which are likely to become actual in play. Sometimes that will be because a player wanted it thus, and sometimes not. Yes and I (as well as a few other posters who have addressed this)am recognizing that qualitative component by addressing the fact that @pemerton's limiters on player agency are different. However when one starts from a position of wanting to understand something (I assume that was the point of the OP in this thread) but then turns it into a comparison/competition where not only do they use negatively skewed language to describe the other playstyle but also define the parameters of the comparison and the nature of the "win" conditions well it's apt to irritate those who probabnly feel like the entire thread was a bait and switch that has been pulled on them in bad faith. It feels less like I want to understand and more like I drew you in to this so I could tell you how much better my style is and force you to defend your own. Yeah, I don't feel defensive. I feel misunderstood by some people, but I think there's actually a pretty reasonable amount of mutual understanding here. Some people got chapped a little and I think some of them talked themselves into some questionable positions that kind of irritated me a little bit. T...

Friday, 4th May, 2018

  • 01:48 PM - Imaro mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ... that a traditional game with worldbuilding is a "Choose your own adventure" game. It's like me claiming Story Now is just a "Let the dice make whatever up in the moment" game. It's a simplistic statement that's mildly insulting and fails to capture the nuances of the playstyle. The very genesis of the story is also QUALITATIVELY different, and this gets back to what Hriston said before, there's a qualitative dimension to this whole 'agency debate' thing. You cannot simply spit out numbers, or even relative measures, like Maxperson is doing. It simply doesn't work. He's also correct, IMHO, in his analysis of the very nature of 'agency' itself, which is that nobody who seriously has the sort of philosophical credentials to be serious about defining it is going to say that actual humans have '100% agency'. Many might say exactly the opposite! Yes and I (as well as a few other posters who have addressed this)am recognizing that qualitative component by addressing the fact that pemerton's limiters on player agency are different. However when one starts from a position of wanting to understand something (I assume that was the point of the OP in this thread) but then turns it into a comparison/competition where not only do they use negatively skewed language to describe the other playstyle but also define the parameters of the comparison and the nature of the "win" conditions well it's apt to irritate those who probabnly feel like the entire thread was a bait and switch that has been pulled on them in bad faith. It feels less like I want to understand and more like I drew you in to this so I could tell you how much better my style is and force you to defend your own. The point is, players in pemerton's game are not simply given choices of circumstances within which they must have their characters navigate. They have a higher level input, to help determine what those circumstances are, the very process of creation of them, from the very beginning. It may be that...
  • 07:39 AM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Maxperson's posts yelling "railroad" at pemerton's play examples is NOT how this topic should be engaged. I only began that after pemerton's repeated and incorrect depictions of my playstyle as "railroad" and "choose your own adventure". He just kept on ignoring the corrections and explanations. Once I'm sure that a person is just willfully insulting the playstyle, I throw his actions back at him.
  • 06:08 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ... Story Now gaming, the play style and process is always presented as being in accordance with the concerns and priorities of the players but when looking at other playstyles it's not... but why is this assumed to be the case, why is it assumed that the playing of the module, it's themes, adversaries, etc are not in accordance with the concerns and priorities of the players? Why is it assumed that when players sit down to play in a GM's world they aren't aware enough that their concerns and priorites are aligned with the GM's world? I mean honestly I think this is where alot of the bad faith accusations are coming from. I don't think that 'classic' games NECESSARILY lack this characteristic. There are three points to consider: 1) In some degree this accordance may actually reflect use of informal narrativist techniques. To the degree that this is true one style of play can approach the other by becoming the other style! 2) Narrativist techniques and Story Now, which is really what pemerton has been focused on from post #1 IMHO, are not totally the same thing. Story Now is more specific, and the use of some narrative focus isn't automatically the same sort of focus. 3) The accordance in Story Now is guaranteed by the rules and process of play. Its not accidental or implicit or informal. It is the very essence of the nature of this form of play. It could be that you could produce EXACTLY the same level of focus informally, but I think the difference is still material when we talk about techniques of play. So, personally, I would just rather play the game where this is an explicit process, but it is perfectly true that at some level games ultimately have to address player interests, or the game will wither. We still can have better games for it, and my feeling is that Story Now games have a more PARTICULAR focus on player agenda/interests, generally. That is, its always, in every scene, the player's agenda. A module may be "Yeah, we want to test ourselves against Tomb of ...
  • 05:32 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...ry levers to mitigate bad things that happen to their PCs. Strangely, this is seem as more agency over traditional games rather than mechanics implemented to directly offset the agency restrictions built into the framing mechanisms of Story Now. Don't get me wrong, here, I dont think this is a negative to Story Now. It aims for a target and hits it with the play it generates. I feel like 'crisis' may be doing too much work here. I mean, yes, you have a mandate to create drama by engaging the character traits/story put forward by the players. This WILL be some form of conflict, and 'crisis' is certainly one of the things that will come up. That doesn't mean that there's nothing else. I mean, when the Titanic sinks, there's a crisis, but other stuff happens too. That's an ongoing disaster situation, but even so there are likely to be scenes that are more 'build up' etc. than 'crisis'. Remember, dramas still have establishment, and build up, etc. Its not all climax. I'm thinking of pemerton's character that has cooking skill. I mean, you wouldn't consider someone hungry showing up in camp a crisis, but its still a reasonable framing for Story Now play.
  • 04:32 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ... one thing, the genre of, lets say, 'Epic High Fantasy' is MUCH MUCH larger than 'what can happen in DL1' (Dragon Lance being Epic High Fantasy, though I'm sure we could hair split about that, but lets not). You understand the difference? In Story Now there's no 'plot', there's no 'adventures you can go on', or even well-established world-facts that can't be contravened for the sake of story. The very genesis of the story is also QUALITATIVELY different, and this gets back to what Hriston said before, there's a qualitative dimension to this whole 'agency debate' thing. You cannot simply spit out numbers, or even relative measures, like Maxperson is doing. It simply doesn't work. He's also correct, IMHO, in his analysis of the very nature of 'agency' itself, which is that nobody who seriously has the sort of philosophical credentials to be serious about defining it is going to say that actual humans have '100% agency'. Many might say exactly the opposite! The point is, players in pemerton's game are not simply given choices of circumstances within which they must have their characters navigate. They have a higher level input, to help determine what those circumstances are, the very process of creation of them, from the very beginning. It may be that in Maxperson's game you can burn down the building and change the scenario, or walk away and go elsewhere, but, unless you engage him outside the realm of the narrative, you can't actually engage in the creative process of picking the elements that will go into the story, ab initio. This is a real difference, and its a dimension in which there is a quality which is existing in Story Now and not existing in Story Before or Story Later, or etc. The problem is his playstyle has it's own set of limitations on all of these things that have been (by various posters arguing for said playstyle throughout the thread) ignored... promoted as "good" limitations" or brushed aside as an accepted part of the playstyle... when in fact...
  • 04:13 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    I definitely think there are questionable arguments being made in that respect (I think my posts have made that clear). But I think the larger problem there is his reducing our position and our definition to "a player character taking an action". They don't want our kind of agency in their games. I am not interested in converting people to my style of play. If they don't want what I like in a game, that is their business. I have no interest in trying to convince them to adopt what I do. All I care about in these conversations is we allow for the multitude of play style and that people don't try to weasel their play style into other peoples' tables by making bad linguistic arguments. If they are finding pleasure in the kind of agency Pemerton is talking about. more power to them. If others see that and think it is something they might like, more power to them. I just don't want them misrepresenting what we mean by agency. We've stated out definition multiple times and it keeps getting met with "so you mean any kind of roleplaying that happens in 100% of all campaigns anyways." or some variation on that. That is the infuriating bit. I guess what bothers me in so many of these discussion is it is almost like people are trying to take away what pleasure others have found at the table. It would be one thing to say "Hey I have this cool style of play, here is how it works, give it a shot". But so many of these conversations feel like attempts to convert people to a religion. It is just a game. And I find it entirely puzzling why anyone would imagine that anything I've said would count as that! I have nothing against 'your kind of agency', as I've said several times, and I know pemerton said it too, probably others, 'your kin...
  • 02:29 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Looking for Advanced Role-Playing Content
    ...ry and setting do not exist until established in play. All players, GM or not, have rights to establish setting and backstory elements. The specific rights and their distribution are system/social contract dependant. Adjudication of action declarations by payers are still handled by the system with GM and player inputs. Again, an example is the PCs are sick in a dead end. A player declares they are searching for a secret door. In No Myth, the existence or non-existence of a secret door isn't denied because it hasn't cine up in play. Most systems that facilitate No Myth play will determine the secret door's existence with a game mechanic. Success establishes the secret door according to the player's declaration. Failure leaves the result up to the GM (usually) to add fiction that doesn't meet the player's declaration. Fair. However, I'm not the one who provided that link... ... so I don't really see an issue with using it as a sole resource. (I'm still not quite sure if pemerton was offering these articles as an example of advanced RPGs or just as an alternative style.) :/ You also puts it in your post, which is what I was referring to. You linked it again. pemerton's first link is true, but then you also linked it. And then quoted only the first line... maybe you recall? So you've gone from claiming I'm a liar to claiming I'm just plain ignorant? Whoa, where did i call you a liar. I said you were wrong. And, yes, you are ignorant of these playstylea you've only just now been made aware of. That's not a negative, unless you insist on remaining ignorant. There's a difference between, "I don't understand what you're saying," and, "I don't understand the concept." It's clear that I'm struggling with the articles pemerton linked. I suspect that's because they're rather poorly written, but I'm willing to accept that I need to put forth more effort. But I'm fairly confident I understand the concept, given the variety of games I've played (and created,...
  • 12:05 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    And you were doing so well until your final paragraph where you couldn't help but get your final passive aggressive barbs and cuts into others. Oh well.It wasn't that passive. I could be more explicit, if it would make it better for you? pemerton asking the question in the OP and then taking honest responses and characterizing then in a negative way is NOT how this topic should be engaged. Maxperson's posts yelling "railroad" at pemerton's play examples is NOT how this topic should be engaged. Better?

Thursday, 3rd May, 2018

  • 01:42 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    You mistake me, I'm not defending Max's argument. I did say that his 100% argument didn't actually say anything, so adding and subtracting to that would also mean nothing. Your tilting at the wrong windmill. And a straw windmill at that, since I haven't actually done any math. You don't need to do math to know that if you have complete agency it's 100%, no agency at all it's 0%, or limited agency is somewhere in-between. Nor do you have to do math to know that if my agency is complete and so is pemerton's, they are both at an equal percentage, with that percentage being 100%. Aldarc continues to alter my argument, and then respond to his own fictitious change. A classic Strawman.
  • 01:35 PM - Sadras mentioned pemerton in post Game Mechanics And Player Agency
    @pemerton I was just wondering given your style of play which you attribute the description 'player-driven' which is something I also would use to describe my games, but of course we might see it differently: Can your players fail (in a big way, I'm not talking about a loss of a familiar for 1 month)? Generally speaking failure in your typical D&D sense = TPK but there are other ways a party could fail. In your typical ToEE adventure its perhaps releasing Zuggtmoy who wreaks havoc and essentially incurs substantial changes to the setting. Given that your adventures are being played from the angle of the PCs as drivers of the story it is rather less likely. EDIT: What I'm getting at, and perhaps I'm not being clear enough, is that the 'player agency' you ascribe to your table delivers (from my perspective) a less than hazardous experience only because the players creativity allows for the get out of jail option (i.e. we search for a secret door for argument's sake). Perhaps this is in the wro...
  • 04:13 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    In the dusty study scene I narrated a page or three back I'd want a lot more specific detail on what the PCs are doing it and how; and in what sequence if not simultaneously. Why's that, you ask? Because the room has a hidden-in-plain-sight Hazard (the dust, quite flammable if stirred up and then a flame is put to it) and a resulting fire could damage or destroy various key elements in the room, not least of which might be the very map they seek should it happen to be exposed if-when the room goes up. Yes, I got the whole dust thing, so dice for it! I mean, its effectively arbitrary where people search. Or have it work like if they check the first 'distinction' in pemerton's list, that's OK, but each one stirs up MORE dust, so if you have to get to #3, and you used fire for your light source, then kaboom! I don't see a need for 17 things to be fully described. Further, with a Hazard like this I-as-DM should place the map ahead of time such that - for continuity purposes; if it wasn't important they wouldn't be looking fo rit - it's in a safer location (e.g. inside the box on the desk) should the room catch fire. But I can't, and thus there's the risk of someone successfully searching the papers on the desk and finding the map there just as someone else lights a torch and *woof!*. (though being the RBDM I am I'd probably have the map be one of the dust-covered papers on the desk, vulnerable to any dust fire the party may unintentionally trigger) Lanefan Well, sure you can, if that's the consideration, then the Box is a distinction, which Pemerton mentioned as an option IIRC. Again, I don't see how some long list of things in the room helps you here...
  • 01:13 AM - Hriston mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ... player character freedom (essentially arguing they are not truly free). There is a play style battle going on underneath all these arguments. Cool beans. You can look at my game and see what you like and don't like about that. I get that and I agree with it. What you can't do is say that your game has more player agency than mine. You can say it has more of your type of player agency, but not that it has more player agency in general. Both of our games involve 100% player agency. You can't get higher than that. Your "player agency" doesn't exist in my game and vice versa. And you don't get to disparage other playstyles by calling them "choose your own adventure" or "players just declare actions to get the DM to say stuff" without getting called out for that sort of crap. This is the issue people are taking. That's the post I was addressing with my post. I have no doubt that's what Maxperson (and others) are taking issue with, but I think you and he are reading what pemerton is saying about agency over the content of the shared fiction, which usage of the word agency he has been very careful to describe throughout this thread, and applying what he's saying about that to other forms of agency he isn't really addressing at all. When he says that a game plays like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, he isn't saying that all choices available to players in that game are limited. He's saying that choices available to players in that game are limited with respect to the sort of fiction that can result from them. When he says the players declare actions to get the GM to relate things the GM has made up, he's contrasting that with a game where the players declare actions to move the fiction in the direction they desire. Obviously, in the first sort of game, the players can only move the fiction in a direction that fits with what's already in the GM's notes. When he says that sort of game railroads the players, he doesn't mean they are railroaded into hav...

Wednesday, 2nd May, 2018

  • 11:48 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ... percentages. And as such... 2) The idea that one could quantifiably measure the differences of agency as percentages or perform basic arithmatic would be equally fallacious. We are discussing qualitative assertions of comparative agency and not quantitative ones. So I don't think that you, me, or anyone else in this thread can reasonably reduce each others' arguments to "our form of agency produces a quantifiably equal amount of agency once we subtract their agency X and add their new agency Y, which as you can see is equal to our agency Z." It's a simply ridiculous assertion. I don't need to measure the agency exactly to know that it is 100%. The standard definition of agency is the player having control over his PC's actions. My players have complete control over their PCs actions, so it doesn't get any higher. Whether that agency amounts to 10, 200, or 10,000 is irrelevant. That it's the maximum that it can be means that it's at 100%. With the definition of agency that pemerton invented for his personal use, I'd wager that he doesn't inhibit it at all, either, so his is also at 100%. They are equal in percentage. 3) This is not to say that we cannot speak of "more" or "less" agency, but we must be clear that we are not talking actual numbers and percentages but qualitative values and philosophic notions of agency. It's a discussion on the shape, caveats, and contours that the various notions of agency possess in the context of player-experience. It is still ultimately a utilitarian argument of sorts, but the utility is "measured" in terms of player-empowerment. And here, I would suggest that one of the principle battle lines in the debate of agency surrounds which form of "agency" produces the more meaningful manifestation of player-empowered play. Again though, this is a qualitative assessment. I don't see how you can speak of more or less agency, except with regard to your own personal game. Since as you point out, we don't have hard numbers for ...


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Monday, 21st May, 2018

  • 11:14 AM - Lanefan quoted pemerton in post How different PC motivations support sandbox and campaign play
    I don't think that typical gameplay has to involve travel. The danger can be local - eg a traitor, a rival, a discovery - and the shenanigans local too. To begin with, sure; but after those are dealt with, then what? Unless you can find a way to keep trouble coming to the PCs' location (which will probably come across as a bit forced after a while) they're going to have to go to where the trouble is...which means travel.
  • 05:38 AM - Ratskinner quoted pemerton in post Talking About An Apocalypse: Looking At Apocalypse World 2E
    I'm not sure which game you're referring to. But this, from ]url=http://lumpley.com/hardcore.html]the same post by Vincent Baker[/url] that I linked to above, seems like it might be relevant to: In task resolution, what's at stake is the task itself. "I crack the safe!" "Why?" "Hopefully to get the dirt on the supervillain!" What's at stake is: do you crack the safe? In conflict resolution, what's at stake is why you're doing the task. "I crack the safe!" "Why?" "Hopefully to get the dirt on the supervillain!" What's at stake is: do you get the dirt on the supervillain? Which is important to the resolution rules: opening the safe, or getting the dirt? That's how you tell whether it's task resolution or conflict resolution. Task resolution is succeed/fail. Conflict resolution is win/lose. You can succeed but lose, fail but win. In conventional rpgs, success=winning and failure=losing only provided the GM constantly maintains that relationship - by (eg) making the safe contain ...

Sunday, 20th May, 2018

  • 08:49 AM - aramis erak quoted pemerton in post Talking About An Apocalypse: Looking At Apocalypse World 2E
    Well, I think in a PbtA game there typically is no "the adventure". And in conflict resolution there typically are no retries. It's also much more essential to allow fail-forward. EG: Trying to break into the safe to get the dirt on the badguy... Success: you get the dirt. Failure: You destroyed the dirt, but there's still coin surviving, at least once the fire dies down.

Saturday, 19th May, 2018

  • 03:55 AM - dragoner quoted pemerton in post Talking About An Apocalypse: Looking At Apocalypse World 2E
    I'm not sure which game you're referring to. But this, from ]url=http://lumpley.com/hardcore.html]the same post by Vincent Baker[/url] that I linked to above, seems like it might be relevant to: In task resolution, what's at stake is the task itself. "I crack the safe!" "Why?" "Hopefully to get the dirt on the supervillain!" What's at stake is: do you crack the safe? In conflict resolution, what's at stake is why you're doing the task. "I crack the safe!" "Why?" "Hopefully to get the dirt on the supervillain!" What's at stake is: do you get the dirt on the supervillain? Which is important to the resolution rules: opening the safe, or getting the dirt? That's how you tell whether it's task resolution or conflict resolution. Task resolution is succeed/fail. Conflict resolution is win/lose. You can succeed but lose, fail but win. In conventional rpgs, success=winning and failure=losing only provided the GM constantly maintains that relationship - by (eg) making the safe contain the relevant ...
  • 01:02 AM - (Psi)SeveredHead quoted pemerton in post Conan vs the Swarms of Soldiers.
    Passing Attack is a 1st level fighter encounter power that allows taking down multiple minions. I was going to mention that. IIRC there are fighter daily powers that essentially surround the fighter with a zone of "damage" (IIRC 1[W] damage). You assume the rain of steel stance. Until the stance ends, any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you takes 1[W] damage, but only if you're able to make opportunity attacks. But not relevant if we are only discussing level 1 fighters.

Friday, 18th May, 2018

  • 04:20 PM - dragoner quoted pemerton in post Talking About An Apocalypse: Looking At Apocalypse World 2E
    That's, if you ask me, the big problem with task resolution: whether you succeed or fail, the GM's the one who actually resolves the conflict. The dice don't, the rules don't; you're depending on the GM's mood and your relationship and all those unreliable social things the rules are supposed to even out. This is where the game loses me, if I roll a success, then I expect to succeed; otherwise what we are playing is advanced mother may I. The truth is, is that the player can always quit easier, which balances out the GM's investment; in the middle there is a no-fault area of the game not being for that person, then on either end, the GM or player can be at fault for the relationship not working. Nevertheless, like any other relationship, commitment and investment are the keys to success.
  • 03:02 PM - Gammadoodler quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    By the reasons they put forward, and the outcomes they defend. A LG paladin who rejects a command (say) to execute an innocent person, on grounds that the giving of the command reveals the one who gave it as unfit to hold office, does not object to holding office in general, to the notion of command, etc. His/her objection is that (eg) the would-be ruler is, in fact, destroying the community whose welfare s/he is expected to foster by giving commands of that sort. This paladin will, eg, seek out the true holder of the office (which, in a suitably dramatic fantasy adventure scenario, might be someone who was usurped, or overlooked for the throne, etc) and seek to restore that person, thus restoring justice in the realm. Whereas a CG paladin will not be interested in the integrity of the office, its proper holder, etc - indeed, this person would want scare quotes around "integrity" (of the office), "proper" (holder of the office) and the like because s/he thinks that these social structu...
  • 01:04 PM - Garthanos quoted pemerton in post Conan vs the Swarms of Soldiers.
    It allows a shift. Conan often seems to shift, if one takes the REH narration literally. A shift as a move action after mowing down a pair of enemies also gets that visual too... Battlerager vigor will make things safer in general too.
  • 12:37 PM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    Last time I checked, I was a private citizen in Australia, not the US government! I was pointing out that the view that all killing of civilians in warfare is evil is contentious, and in fact widely denied. Of course the US is going to deny it. Last I heard they also denied the My Lai Massacre as well.
  • 12:26 PM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    Who do you think posted on this forum that the atomic bombing of Japan was good? I believe it was you. I don't want to actually call out contemporary contentious cases, so I'll mention historical ones instead: as far as I'm aware, the US government still defends the atomic bombing of Japan on grounds that it ended the war sooner than it otherwise would have, thereby achieving a net reduction in human suffering.
  • 12:14 PM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    Harry Truman, you mean? You could blame the guy for many things, but posting on a forum after he has died?
  • 04:04 AM - Garthanos quoted pemerton in post Conan vs the Swarms of Soldiers.
    Passing Attack is a 1st level fighter encounter power that allows taking down multiple minions. Inferior to a cleave vs minions...no? Hack and Hew with Invigorating would both provide temp hit points and be slightly inferior to cleave offensively...

Thursday, 17th May, 2018

  • 09:41 PM - shidaku quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    Battles that are hopeless in the sense of the odds being against you are fine, and part of the archetype. But struggling to prove that 2+2=5, when the GM and the system take standard arithmetic for granted (2+2=4) just seems silly. The character might be endearing in some fashion, but ultimately is a fool, isn't s/he? Well yes, but I don't think that's the kind of battle the Paladin usually fights. The uphill battle is usually against unreasonable burdens. Like, you catch your friend stealing from the party, friend apologizes, returns the item, but that's not how the law works, the law says he has to go to court, go to jail. The Paladin is only the enforcer, not the judge and jury, so the Paladin has the choice between letting the criminal go (breaking the law) or packing up their stuff in the middle of a dungeon and attempting to escort a party member all the way back to town. If he does the former, he loses his powers, if he doesn't do the latter (because it's absurd), he loses his powe...
  • 04:24 PM - D1Tremere quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    When it comes to alignment, I don't take that approach. I treat it as a table matter. That seems untenable. you can't have a game devolve into an argument on moral philosophy every time a character exorcises agency (unless that is what your game is into). Almost any action a player takes can be justified moralistically in one way or another, so I don't see how that would work in mechanical situations (such as with the Paladin).
  • 09:45 AM - TheCosmicKid quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    This moves the discussion into treacherous terrain! I'm personally not a big fan of GM-adjudicated alignment, and so take a different approach from TheCosmicKid's. That probably puts me in a minority among posters in this thread. I don't think I'm making a particularly contentious claim, just a de facto observation. The DM is also the final arbiter of whether or not rocks fall and everyone dies. Doesn't mean it's a good idea for them to make heavy use of that power, but they're the one at the table who has it.
  • 07:01 AM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    I don't thik that's an apt comparison. If the GM or game system has already decided that being lawful is, in fact, not the best way to be good, then to playa character whose whole raison d'etre is to be good in virtue of being lawful because that's the best way to be good is to play a character who is already known, by everyone at the table, to be misguided. So then it is more like a character who is specialised in wielding a Hammer getting upset because there are some things in the game that are resistant to bludgeoning damage and that another character who can use multiple weapons is more effective because they can adapt better to different encounters. And totally forgetting that they stomp encounters with creatures that are weak to bludgeoning damage.
  • 06:56 AM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    This is fairly contentious. Eg most accounts of justice in warfare allow that it is permissible to kill civilians provided that (i) it is not disproportionate, and (ii) it is not avoidable in order to achieve a legitimate military goal, and (iii) the killing of the civilians is not intended/desired. I would suggest that in this case you are arguing that it would be Lawful to kill civilians in warfare rather then it is not Evil. I'm not saying that those accounts of justice in warfare are necessarily correct; they may be wrong. But they are widespread. And the D&D/PF alignment system contributes nothing to a discussion as to whether or not they are correct; whether it is permissible to push the fat man off the bridge to stop the runaway trolley; whether it is permissible to blow up an attacking tank with a baby strapped to it; etc. (Gygax, for instance, treats the common welfare, human rights, and the greatest happiness of the greatest number all as falling within the category of good. He...
  • 06:43 AM - Shasarak quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    I'm more thinking about the player's relationship to the GM, than the PC's relationship to other characters within the fiction. If the GM - or the game system that the GM is administering - takes as a premise that it is impossible to fully realise the good while adhering to lawfulness, then the paladin player knows that s/he has already lost, and that his/her PC's aspirations are hopeless. It seems an odd position to give up before you even try just because you may not get 100 on the test. It would be like playing a Fighter who never fights because they wont crit for maximum damage on every strike.
  • 05:25 AM - shidaku quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    I'm more thinking about the player's relationship to the GM, than the PC's relationship to other characters within the fiction. If the GM - or the game system that the GM is administering - takes as a premise that it is impossible to fully realise the good while adhering to lawfulness, then the paladin player knows that s/he has already lost, and that his/her PC's aspirations are hopeless. I'd argue that fighting hopeless battles, even against the game system, is part of the appeal of playing a Paladin...provided that your DM is interested in indulging you. Too often DMs are interested in enforcing hard mechanical penalties which you've already violated by simply existing. That's not fun to play against. It's why, for example, my favorite paladin ever was a tiefling (and a rather demonic looking one at that). Their whole life was about fighting that uphill, in-the-snow, both-ways battle, surrounded on all sides. It was terribly fun. It's like playing Captain America. BUT, it was fun be...
  • 03:58 AM - Yaarel quoted pemerton in post Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
    In describing the various good alignments, I think it is helpful to focus on what each asserts/believes, but not to frame descriptions in a way that already assumes that one of those assertions is true and the others false. Oh. You mean the nomenclature of ‘True Good’. This is just an extension of the D&D-ism ‘True Neutral’, instead of saying ‘Neutral Neutral’, that is in between Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral. True refers to the first kind of Neutral. Under the influence of this D&D-ism, True Good is construed as being in between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. Remember Chaotic Good believes Lawful Good falls short of the measure of Good. Chaotic Good makes excellent points in its case against Lawful Good. Law can do great harm, and conformity can be deeply evil − and for the Lawful Good character these excesses of Law are an ongoing temptation.


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