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  • grodog's Avatar
    Today, 04:36 AM
    Le bump! Allan.
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:38 PM
    I'm looking at building a paladin/sorcerer variant of some kind, let's say 7th level. We're currently 6th level in ToA, and our DM likes to occasionally imply that we should have back up characters...so I may never need this, or I may need it soon, but either way I thought it would be fun to develop the concept and a first attempt, at least, for the fun of it. My first thought is an aasimar....
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:14 AM
    Well, first of all I'd question taking a six-year old to see a Star Wars movie. But that aside, I would ask, why doesn't a six-year old today like the original Star Wars (presumably) but six-year olds in 1977 did? I would argue it is because of prior "dietary habits." So yes, it is dependent upon what the parents expose them to. Media is a form of diet - it is food for the nervous system. If ...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:52 AM
    Six-year olds also prefer donuts to kale. Should we listen to them for nutritional guidance and let them decide on their diet? Ultimately it is the parents' choice what their six-year old eats, just as it is the choice of adult film producers* what they're selling to young people. What we've seen for the last 40 years is a kind of "stimulation inflation," which has encouraged a kind of numbing of...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th December, 2018, 07:34 PM
    I didn't read any of the EU books, have never watched the Clone Wars. I am not a "die-hard SW fan," at least no more than any Gen-X semi-geek. I do love the original trilogy, which is part of my cultural mythology. The friend I saw it with is similar, and we both were--to say the least--underwhelmed. I was left with a bad taste, a sense of wwrongness, even, like I had just seen my dead...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Saturday, 8th December, 2018, 07:39 PM
    I would love a big Galactus event. It also implies the Silver Surfer, probably my all-time favorite comic hero. I could see GotG 3 leading into this in some way - perhaps they realize Galactus is coming. It is also a good way to get the FF back in the mix. And yeah, the next phase being centered on BP, CM, and SM makes sense. I like the idea of Iron Man and CM being titles that would be filled...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Saturday, 8th December, 2018, 07:21 PM
    While 5E is far simpler than the "rules heavy" 4E and 3.5E versions of D&D, it is still very much a "rules medium" game - if not "medium plus" - and probably requires a base level of either nerdy 12 year olds, or non-nerdy 14-15 year olds to grasp the entire RAW. I was thinking of introducing my two non-nerdy (but imaginative) daughters, age 13 and 10 to the game, but wanted to trim it down a...
    27 replies | 710 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Saturday, 8th December, 2018, 06:49 PM
    Browsing through Dungeon of the Mad Mage I had a feeling of nostalgia for my youth, when on some summer nights I would stay up until the wee hours of the night, running myself through the 1E DMG Random Dungeon Generator. On first blush, that doesn't sound very fun, but I remember having a blast. It was a form of make-believe: I would get to both create a dungeon and be surprised by what I...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Saturday, 8th December, 2018, 01:17 AM
    There are plenty of good reviews already, both pro and con, so I won't go into much detail - I just wanted to offer this book some much needed love, as it is a great product if you embrace it for what is rather than focusing on what it is not, or how it didn't meet your expectations. I certainly would have liked more depth on the history, more of the city itself. But a lot is packed into its...
    11 replies | 1603 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Saturday, 8th December, 2018, 12:02 AM
    Back to the OP, I'm not sure why we should "get rid of" any race. I see the D&D books as toolboxes that individual DMs can pick and choose from. The more races the better. The default setting, the FR, has 99% of those options. Different settings vary to different degrees. Now whether or not they end up in my campaign world is a different matter. That's part of the fun of world-building and...
    106 replies | 2536 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 11:57 PM
    Very excited for this one as I love "cosmic Marvel" (although not a huge fan of the campy GotG). Brie Larson is an excellent actress, but my one concern is that--as with Jennifer Lawrence--her full acting range might be greatly diminished in a comic book role. Lawrence is good as Mystique, but if you watch Silver Linings Playbook you realize that she is an excellent actress. Similar with Larson...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 11:43 PM
    My first contact with goliaths in D&D was 4e and probably this image: Can you see why I would associate them with video games? It is an initial imprinting. But you're right - they don't have to be that way, and I can adapt them to the context of my homebrew in a way that I don't feel comfortable doing with tieflings and dragonborn.
    106 replies | 2536 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 10:20 PM
    So next year we'll have Avengers: Endgame, Dark Phoenix, and Captain Marvel. There has been speculation that Captain Marvel will show up in Endgame to help defeat Thanos, but who knows. Dark Phoenix is the last Fox X-movie, with rights moving over to Disney and presumably to enfold into the MCU, or whatever remains of it. There's a huge void, though, as to what 2020 and beyond will look...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 09:59 PM
    As with the other "post-traditional" races, more than anything else it is an aesthetic quality that I don't connect with. I have an aversion to video games as a whole (another topic), and when I think of dragonborn, tieflings, shardminds, goliath etc, I just imagine them running around in a World of Warcraft simulation. As for goliath specifically, they are the least "offensive" and, to be...
    106 replies | 2536 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 09:50 PM
    I see it in tiers... FIRST TIER: The Classics 1. Star Wars: A New Hope 2. Empire Strikes Back 3. Return of the Jedi (Huge gap) SECOND TIER (Best of the Rest)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 09:36 PM
    The biggest problem with Disney Star Wars, in my opinion, is that they lack George Lucas' visionary imagination. The original trilogy was truly visionary. The prequels, while crappy in other ways (mostly around Anakin's actors, lack of romantic chemistry, annoying details like the Fetts from downunda, Jar-Jar Binks, etc), still had the Lucas touch for world-building. They still felt like Star...
    86 replies | 1483 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 7th December, 2018, 09:12 PM
    It really depends upon the campaign setting. Is it a "D&D default" style setting, ala the Realms? Then allow all races. Is it more thematic? Then include races to fit the theme. I generally don't allow goliath, dragonborn or tieflings, because I don't really like them aesthetically and they tend to clash thematically with my homebrews (don't get me started on shardminds). I do like exotic...
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 30th November, 2018, 08:54 AM

    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 30th November, 2018, 12:41 AM
    Yeah, I remember that. They also did that 4E package of PHB 1 and 2 for the price of one, if I remember correctly.
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 30th November, 2018, 12:39 AM
    Yeah, I went back and deleted old quotes. For some reason my browser retains old quote boxes - but only on this website. Weird.
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Friday, 30th November, 2018, 12:32 AM
    But that's a bit deceptive, because you could have paid $90 for all three in 2014, but you (presumably)bought from an FLGS. If I remember correctly, the MSRPs of the PHB by edition were: 1E (1978): I think it started at $9.95 in the 70s but was $12.95 (?) by the time the orange spine version came out in 1983. I know this went up to $15 by 1987. 2E (1989): $20.00 3E (2000): $19.95 3.5E...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Thursday, 29th November, 2018, 11:38 PM
    Do you really think print costs will triple "in a couple of years?" A couple is two...or are you being less literal and mean something like 5-20?
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Thursday, 29th November, 2018, 11:16 PM
    First off, I wouldn't buy a HP D&D book because I'm not a fan of HP. But your point is taken: most people are, and given that I would love, say, an Earthsea D&D book, I get what you are saying. Gonna have to disagree with this, as it is a very "MCU-centric" view. There have been plenty of good superhero movies well before 2008. While they're rather dated, the first couple Christopher...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Thursday, 29th November, 2018, 07:56 PM
    To follow-up on some of the previous comments and sum up my thoughts, I think the question is if and when the current wave of success eventually (inevitably?) slows and/or crashes, what will WotC do? We just don't know. It isn't daring to speculate that chances are we will see continued growth and success...for awhile. And then at some point there will be a dip, which is what I was referring...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Wednesday, 28th November, 2018, 10:31 PM
    You misunderstand what I was saying. I was not saying that because previous editions were in various states of decline at 4.33 years, then 5E will soon enter decline. I was merely comparing them to give historical context; actually, I was making no conclusion whatsoever. So I'm not sure what "mistake" I'm making.
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Wednesday, 28th November, 2018, 03:55 AM
    I liked this and think you could be right. Ravnica definitely supports the idea of experimentation as it is not only the first new setting in over a decade (either Nentir in 2007 or Eberron in 2004), but also rather exotic as far as settings go. It is also an overt experimentation on whether Magic and D&D can be integrated, and to what degree of (creative and financial) success.
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Wednesday, 28th November, 2018, 12:42 AM
    Part of the issue may be that the story books are hardcover, and hardcover has a connotation of "must buy" that goes back to 1E, when you'd only get one hardcover a year (two later on) and it felt like a Big Event (Or so I remember my 10-12-ish year old self feeling). I think WotC deliberately (and successfully) tried to recapture this feeling, if simply by virtue of relative rarity of hardcover...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 11:23 PM
    Peak and decline is inevitable; the question is, can WotC stimulate later peaks? I would echo what @Prakriti said and say that the movie will impact this trajectory - and possibly stimulate a later peak. WotC has to be thinking about other ways to do the same, because at some point sales will start going down. On the other hand, maybe they find a way to turn D&D into the RPG version of Monopoly...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 09:33 PM
    OK, this all makes sense and is sound reasoning. My only caveat would be, "as of now." Things can and do inevitably change, and the PHB presumably won't continue to sell as well as it is. Furthermore, they can probably eek more dollars out of people by coming up with an "expanded and revised PHB" - a 5.2 version of the book that doesn't invalidate or replace the 2014 version, but improves upon...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 09:27 PM
    Just to clarify, the dates given in bold for each edition were not when I thought they reached their peak, but when they were 4.33 years in - the same as 5E is now. As I said, I also agree that 1983 was the peak of 1E.
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 09:22 PM
    Yes, exactly my thoughts - although I think they'll be flexible on how they do the two adventure books, depending upon the year. I also wouldn't be surprised if the story arc is directly tied to the setting.
    92 replies | 4412 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 09:18 PM
    A bit more on my "4 Products Per Year Theory"... So far we've seen 19 products (including Starter Set) in five years (2014-18), or 18 hardcovers. 2014 saw the starter set, three core rulebooks, and two-part first story arc - so six products in all. 2015-17 saw the same pattern each year: two story arc books, one supplement. 2018 was the same as 2015-17, but added a fourth product - a...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 09:07 PM
    Some thoughts... I think we can say that 5E is very healthy and thriving, relative to recent past few editions. It isn't dead (4E), dying (3.5), or been updated/revised (3E). Even going back to 2E, it isn't over-glutting like 2E was at this point, which led to TSR's implosion. That said, those various stages within an edition seem inevitable at some point. But when? We know that Mearls &...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 08:59 PM
    This was vaguely inspired by the adventure saturation and What Does The Game Need Now? threads. The basic question is this: What now for 5E, and has it reached "peak edition?" Think of the concept of "peak oil" and apply it to a D&D edition. I am not talking about output of production as much as the arc of the edition as a whole. It is that point beyond which everything is a general trend...
    157 replies | 5009 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 08:11 PM
    What Jester David said. Let's not confuse outspoken forumites with the sum total of D&D fans. I honestly don't get the complaints waged on Mad Mage - that it is a series of disconnected dungeon crawls, which can be used as a group or separately. What a great resource to have! You can A) Play the entire thing, as written, B) slot a level into your homebrew campaign as needed, C) Use it as a...
    92 replies | 4412 view(s)
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  • Mercurius's Avatar
    Tuesday, 27th November, 2018, 08:00 AM
    My first impression of both books is two big thumbs up. Ravnica is not only a lovely book, but a really intriguing setting - I am very happy that WotC branched out from the old (and relatively stale) classics. Mad Mage is fun and useful as not only a mega-dungeon but relatively autonomous adventures, if you feel so inclined to use them that way. Both cover new territory from what has already...
    92 replies | 4412 view(s)
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Sunday, 9th December, 2018

  • 08:12 AM - Quickleaf mentioned Mercurius in post How to trim 5E down to "Rules Lite" (for kids)
    Mercurius My go to source of inspiration has been James Stowe's blog: http://jamesstowe.blogspot.com/2011/09/dnd-for-8-year-olds.html He took 4th edition I believe and created simplified character sheets oriented for kids. Good stuff! :)
  • 05:41 AM - Blue mentioned Mercurius in post Optimizing a two person party
    Mercurius had an thought provoking post about going through a published dungeon crawl with a small party, possibly a two person group. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?655479-quot-Solo-crawling-quot-Dungeon-of-the-Mad-Mage That got me to thinking. We often discuss optimization of a single character, but how about a pair of characters (only!) that need to complement each other. Say we needed to handle: RP and social skills Knowledge skills Exploration and discovery Combat where usually the foes have a lot more actions then us Healing/recovery between challengesFind/remove traps, open locks, find hidden things (Assume standard type adventures, not the DM tailoring specifically to two characters - though that does mean the might advance faster so be a bit in level above where a 4-5 character party would be.) Can you suggest character pairs that will work at (around) 6th, 12th and 16th, providing a high degree of synergy as well as covering the needed tasks? It's okay if the...

Thursday, 2nd August, 2018


Tuesday, 31st July, 2018


Friday, 16th March, 2018

  • 02:25 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post Mythological Figures: Achilles (5E)
    Like Mercurius, I was surprised to see such low physical stats. And like Polyhedral Columbia, I was surprised by the lack of allusion to Achilles's rage. But anyway, the personality traits seem to be missing. Achilles is a great warrior, but there are other great warriors in the Iliad. What distinguishes literary/mythological peronsalities tends to be their character. As a starting point for Achilles I'll suggest Ideal: Glory; Bond: Patroclus; Flaw: Pride.

Friday, 2nd February, 2018

  • 01:26 PM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...he player should describe what the character does and then let the GM determine the outcome based on what's been established and the results of whatever check may be required (Search or Perception or what have you). The player is limited to describing what his character attempts to do.This isn't how D&D handles combat (subject to a qualification in the next paragraph). In combat the player doesn't have to describe what the player does (other than the very generic "I attack with my sword"); and the GM doesn't decide the outcome - we roll to hit dice, and damage dice, and track hit point totals, and some (not all) of us track figures on a map, etc. I agree with you for non-combat, though, in contemporary D&D (I don't know that it was always thus, but it has been at least since 2nd ed and its NWP system). Also, GM fudging of hit point totals or monster to hit rolls or monster AC will tend to change the character of combat to being what you described. That's why upthread, in reply to Mercurius, I described this approach to player action declarations as the player making suggestions to the GM as to how the fiction might be developed. Okay, but if we compare the search for the letter and the attack on the orc, I don't think they're exactly alike. One is the player actively seeking something, the other is the player responding to action from the game world. What if the orc is 100 feet away from the PC and is attacking them with a bow? Is not allowing the PC to retaliate with a melee attack denying their agency? Is the player free to resolve the issue of the orc in any way he sees fit? Or is he bound by the constraints of the fictional world? Is that any different than the hidden letter? It's location determines the chance of finding it.I posted a lot about this upthread. The difference I see is that in your orc example the player knows the fictional positioning - the GM has framed something, and the player has to deal with it. (If the player declared an action to sn...

Sunday, 28th January, 2018

  • 03:44 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Okay, but please explain how one type of note doesn't constrain the DM but another type does? Again, this reads like special pleading: this thing I prep isn't that kind of thing that's prepped, the one that constrains you.I think my longer post (just upthread) explains my analysis pretty clearly. But the short version is: an encounter map I'm carrying around in my backpack ready to whip out if/when needed (or a Monster Manual, or notes about a mysterious benefactor, or whatever) isn't an established element of the shared fiction that is secret from the players and yet that might be a factor in adjudicating the resolution of the actions that they declare for their PCs. And once the map is on the table, there is no secret. The players may not like the GM's framing (it's boring, it's contrived, whatever) but they can see what action declarations are and are not feasible within that framing. So it's not like Mercurius's omnipotent GM, who - in principle - enjoys the power to mediate every action declaration through his/her conception (be it prior, or made up on the spot) of what the fiction contains and has room for.
  • 03:40 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...es a desire about the state of the fiction, and the action resolution rules then determine whether or not that desire becomes true. In conventional D&D play, I think the GM is expected to exercise a fairly strong mediating role in narrating the outcome even on a successful check (eg the GM probably decides whether or not the crossbow bolt shot the orc in the head or the chest). In BW, by contrast, the GM is permitted only to add embellishments (so if the player says, "I shoot the orc in the head", and the dice deliver a success, well that's what happened). The player asking "Is the map in the study" and then - on a good roll - fiding it there is strictly analogous to the player "introducing" (by way of successful action resolution) that the orc is dead. Now, if it's controversial that RPGing should include players expressing desires as to the content of the fiction, which then become true if action resolution works out a certain way - well, we're back at what I talked about with Mercurius, namely, player action declarations as, at best, suggestions to the GM as to possible narrations of furure states of the fiction. Under no secret backstory conditions, the player has now signaled that they wish to introduce a map, and the DM has to engage this hook and say yes or roll the dice. If the dice are rolled and successful, then the player has now introduced fiction.Well, this takes me back to the two contrasting cases, both of Circles checks that I've seen occur in BW play: (1) "Jabal the Red is leader of my cabal. I reach out to him to see if he can help us." That is direct authorship of fiction - the cabal is led by Jabal the Red. Then there is a statement of desire - the player wants the fiction to include Jabal helps the PC who has reached out to him. (2) "I wonder if any knights of my order are living around here. As we travel, I keep an eye out for any signs of them." That is a statement of desire - the player wants the fiction to include As I travel through...

Thursday, 25th January, 2018

  • 04:47 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    This was a request to comment directly on a commenter's statement that world-building by the GM was an art, was something they appreciated as a creative enterprise in and of itself, and that (one of the primary) roles of players is to explore and appreciate that effort and/or engage in a choose-your-own adventure approach to RPGIng based on that worldbuilding. - This come on the heels of (after and before further) aggressive commentary by a GM stating that THE SETTING IS MINE (and other related commentary). This was not rebuked and this sentiment has been reiterated in other forms in this thread by other commenters and throughout ENWorld's many threads (again, especially in threads that decry players for optimization).And as (I think) the one who requested the comment - thank you, it was interesting! For what it's worth, I find your analysis pretty plausible, though - as I posted upthread following Mercurius's post - I think that there may be subsitutable values of your (2) (eg "Someone's got to do it!") which then feed through, in pretty straightforward ways, into your other points without fundamental effects on them. I want to say it was one of the Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards threads of yore!That sounds right. I believe that (as relates to this thread), the pair of contentions you, I, and others were making were the following: * In D&D systems with (a) Vancian casters with Enchantment spells (especially with prolific spell load-outs) and (b) noncombat action resolution governed by a process sim (internal causality rather than genre logic) task resolution (rather than conflict resolution), Wizards/spellcasters are going to be inevitably dominate noncombat action resolution. * The only way this doesn't take place is for GMs to either (a) preemptively protect crucial plot-points/NPCs by pulling out the classic (eye-roll-inducing to any hardened, long term player) block...
  • 01:20 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...gainst a difficulty set by the GM in accordance with the skill descriptions; but that mechanical difference doesn't mean that the GM gets to make the passive check fail automatically just because s/he thought it would be better for the map to be somewhere other than the study. In other words, (i) there is not only one model for RPG mechanics, and (ii) even when the mechanics are similar (both D&D and BW use checks against a difficulty), that doesn't tell us why it is the GM's job to do the stuff you say. To be clear: I'm not asserting that there is no answer to the question. But answers that don't take account of the range of ways RPGing works will (necessarily) be incomplete. I mean, obviously setting provides depth - but it doesn't have to be GM authored to do that (witness the various examples I've posted upthread). So a more complete answer adds information eg Caliban says that many players don't want to contribute to establishing the backstory, so someone else has to do it; Mercurius says that he wants the GM to tell him the backstory as part of his process of immersion (to me that seems very similar to being told a story by the GM - I think Mercurius queries that characterisation, but from my point of view I'm still working out why, and also why it's considered pejorative - I went to the pictures recently, and had a story told to me, and that doesn't make me feel offended). Nagol gave some different reasons: GM worldbuilding establishes levers/tools for the players. It makes sense that someone else has to do this, in that being able to just deem your own tools into existence seems a bit cheat-y. To me, that speaks to a style of play much closer to classic dungeoneering, though mabye Nagol would not agree with that. Also, the very term "action resolution" is here a bit misleading. Yes a PC has declared an action, and that action gets resolved...but the resolution of that action only applies to the PC and her immediate surrounds, not to anything static withi...
  • 12:35 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Congrats. You're free to play the way you enjoy. That doesn't make your way the "right"way, but it seems that was the entire purpose of this thread - and we all knew it. Your inability to understand why I prefer to play a different way has no bearing on the validity of that playstyle. Happy gaming.Three things: (1) I've never talked about a "right way" to play. I started a thread with a question: some posters answered it (@Nagol, Caliban, etc). Some other posters - Mercurius, Lanefan - asserted or implied that by asking the question I was insulting them. To be frank, that's on them, not on me. If they don't want to answer the question "what is GM worldbuiling for", or think that the answer is so self-evident that to ask the question is to commit some RPG faux pas, well, no one is forcing them to post in the thread. (2) What makes you think I don't understand why you prefer to play a different way? When I say "This is why I don't like such-and-such", what makes you think I'm telling you why you shouldn't like it? (3) I've replied with courtesy and honesty to all your posts in this thread, and have not attacked you or your preferences (unless you consider me explaining why my preference are different an attack - in which case see (1) and (2) above). I'm a little surprised that you don't seem capable of doing the same.

Wednesday, 24th January, 2018

  • 09:01 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Mercurius If the GM has the inherent power to veto/filter/manipulate, then it is inherent that the GM is not bound by action resolution. Having regard to it when you're not inclined to overturn it is not a mode of being bound. This then relevant to your question "Why not (1) through (4)?" (3) and (4) aren't avaiable to an omnipotent GM, because they only make sense if the GM is bound. An omnipotent GM can, of course, make a dice roll or call for one from the player: but as s/he has the power to disregard/override it, it is nothing more than a suggestion, an additional factor that s/he might consider. This is why I don't like it as a GMing method: when I'm GMing I want to find out what happens; not to take suggestions, consider input, and the decide what happens. The way I do this is by following the rules for action resolution. You say that only an abusive GM would decide that "my guy wins" without action resolution: but in fact that is exactly what is happening every time a playe...
  • 07:03 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Mercurius, there are some point where I think you have mis-spoken, or seem not to understand some RPG techniques. A player's agency in the fictional world is roughly the same as our agency in the real world, and even slightly more so, as I explained. The difference, though, is that in the fictional world, there's a GM - who is akin to a hypothetical supreme being in our world.The player has no agency in the fictional world, any more than you have the power to punch Sherlock Holmes in the nose. The PC has agency in the fictional world, but it's fictional ie imaginary agency and so, as I explained to Lanefan not too far upthread is orthogonal to issues of railroading etc. (A PC might be enlaved by some other being, yet the player have unfettered autonomy, because the player determines the details of what the enslaving being asks of the PC.) And the player may or may not have agency in the real world, in the playing of the game, depending on his/her capacity to change the state of the sha...
  • 05:22 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...eed some other technique for dealing with retries. I had to deal with this fairly recently in my Traveller game, because it doesn't use "fail forward", and instead mostly manages retries either through it's rules for the passage of time - so if you're in your starship your life support only lasts for so many days, and so with one chance to fix the engines per day, you only get so many tries before the PCs all asphyxiate - or through a flat-out "no retries" rule. But it's mechanics for overland exploration don't have a no retries rule and don't have time constraints like starship activities do, and hence are - in my view - the weakest part of the ruleset, as they easily lead - I can report from experience - to rather boring play with dice being rolled although nothing significant is at stake.) It is a wrong question, Mr. Pemerton. You seem to have this black or white view of the situation: either the GM is telling the story or the players are. Neither are correct.Well, tell that to Mercurius. He was the one who said that it is the GM's story, and the players are actors - and it was that contention that I was responding to. I would work with the player to develop those religious organizations and the world in which they exist based on the player's assumptions. In some cases, I'd deliberately subvert the player's assumptions to keep things interesting and challenging. We'd play out the scenario, and I would use that predetermined setting information to inform my adjudication of the players' actions and the consequences thereof.Well, I guess all the action is in the words "We'd play out the scenario." I was wondering how, in actual practice, this would work. Eg what sorts of actions might be declared, and how would they be adjudicated? The players declare actions and the GM determines how the world reacts. How is the GM to determine how the world reacts without first determining the nature of the world? Assuming we agree that determination must take place, why do y...
  • 04:48 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    Adventures that are ostensibly open world, where the players have the agency to walk away from the plot, are more difficult to run unless the players voluntarily commit to staying within the confines of the plot. The alternatives are things like railroading, moving scenery, or trusting to luck and/or skill, or letting go of the plot and leaving the players wander.Those are not the only atlernatives. A well-established alternative is the one I posted upthread (in replay to Mercurius), put forward in summary form (but in no sense invented) by Eero Tuovinen. Instead of the GM hoping to hook the players and keep them on the rails of plot, the players build PCs with "hooks" for the GM and the GM etablishes situations that speak to those player-evinced flags. It doesn't depend upon luck, nor upon any particular skill (I started GMing in this fashion as a teenager in the second half of the 80s; the player hooks, on that occasion, were provided by the Oriental Adventures character generation process). But nor does it involve the players "wandering". If the GM is doing his/her job properly, then play will be rather focused (I mean, it may or may not traverse a wide geographic scope, but whether or not it does will be a secondary matter). The ideal, of course, is that the players voluntarily stay on plot because they find said plot/story interesting and-or engaging enough to want to play it out. Which means that in a DM-driven game it's squarely on the DM to come u...

Tuesday, 23rd January, 2018

  • 11:36 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    We are talking about player generated content (shared worldbuilding with the player) - you cannot seemingly skip that stage in the debate when it doesn't suit you.Well I know what I'm talking about, seeing as I wrote the OP. I'm asking what GM pre-authored worldbuilding is for. You and Mercurius say that it one thing it does is support immersion, by sparing the player from having to generate content. I'm making the point that there are many, many RPGs in which the player doesn't have to generate content in the way you and Mercurius don't like, and yet which don't depend upon the GM pre-authoring content. The reason that I know this is because I play such RPGs. (The only RPG I'm personally familiar with that has the feature you and Mercurius object to is OGL Conan, and I've never played it.) How do I know I'm looking for a map?You declare as your action, for your PC, "I search the study for the map", or something similar. The GM sets an approriate difficulty, the dice are rolled, they tell us whether or not hopes are realised or dashed. In my experience it's quite immersive, and it doesn't require the player to generate any content beyond his/her PC's desires, and the actions that those desires move him/her to undertake. EDIT: the basic concept is no different from...
  • 11:12 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    I consider TTRPGs primarily a mechanism for shared storytelling, because that's the one aspect of a TTRPG that cannot be replicated in a book or videogame. Someone has to develop the shared world in which that storytelling takes place, and it usually falls to the GM to do so.I'm not sure about the has to - can't the setting be generated in the course of the telling of the story? I will admit, for the sake of argument, that any GM who declares ownership over the campaign is overstepping. Well, that's what the poster to whom I was replying did. Mercurius also asserted that the GM is omnipotent in respect of the campaign: "One approach assumes that the GM is omnipotent, and the player's relationship to the world is akin to our own relationship to our world." I think it's perfectly reasonable for a GM to declare ownership over the campaign setting. Many of us put a LOT of effort into developing our campaign settings to include NPCs, geography, situations, maps, motivations, etc. Most players put proportionally less work into the game; they roll up their characters, perhaps include a backstory, and show up with some dice. GMing a simulated living, breathing world in which the players can explore and adventure involves a ton of work.OK - I didn't think any of this stuff about effort was in dispute. Writing is hard and takes time. But I'm not sure how that relates to the actual process of play. And the metaphors "exploration" is still in need of cashing out. The way that I "explore" Middle Earth is to read JRRT's books. How does a pl...
  • 03:28 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ..., with changes in the content of the fiction and in fictional positionig taking place on the way through, and yielding an outcome at the end. But a distincive requirement of those systems is that they depend upon the details of the fiction - the worldbuilding - not being fully established at the start, because flexibility in respect of this is a necessary element to enable the narrative to be developed as the PCs' fortunes wax and/or wane. If resolution proceeds, though, in the context of a "square by square"/"hex by hex", wargaming-style scouting by the PCs (as the players' vechicles), and with no limits on GM moves, and with the players only able to get information by making moves that prompts the GM to tell them the stuff that s/he thinks is salient - well, I think this is a very hard puzzle/maze to beat. Add into the repertoire of GM permitted moves that s/he can (secretly) thwart any player action declaration at any time by (secretly) writing new backstory (which is what Mercurius and Manbearcat were discussing in the context of GM authority over the fiction) - well, then I think it gets even harder. No matter what system is being played, I'm not going to let the rolls of a character solve a "puzzle" or riddle. I might give a clue, reflecting the character's superiour intelligence compared to the player, and any in world knowledge. But thought is still required.OK. I'm not sure how that relates to my example, though. As I said, in Cortex+ Heroic you can't run a classic dungeon crawl, because the fiction isn't pre-authored in the right way to support that. As in the example I gave, strange runes or carvings aren't a riddle to be solved; they're an element of the fiction that establishes the basis for action declarations like the one I described (ie "They might be a map - let's see [frames check, rolls dice, beats Doom Pool] - yes, they are, we're here and here's how we get to there [rubs Lost in the Dungeon complication of character sheet]"). If the game ...
  • 02:33 AM - pemerton mentioned Mercurius in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...hey may give me ideas for new areas to flesh out, but ultimately it is my creation and I have the final say on anything that affects the world. They control their characters, I control the world. They influence the world through the actions of their characters and through the parts of their backstories that I choose to incorporate into the game. Together we tell a story. My enjoyment comes from creating the world and having them experience it. Their enjoyment comes from exploring it, watching their characters grow and become part of that world I've never GMed a game in that style, and when I first played in such a game - in 1990 - after a couple of weeks I and the other players "sacked" the GM and started a game in which players made contributions that went beyond "exploring" the GM's fiction (which, non-metaphorically, = the GM telling them stuff that s/he wrote). I find your lack of understanding completely believable. The only agency I can see in the game that you and Mercurius describe is that the players - in the play of their PCs - get to make suggestions to the GM as to what s/he should say next: eg they can say "I look for the map in the study", and the GM may tell them that they find it, or may not, depending on some mix of what is written in the GM's notes, what the GM thinks makes for a good game/good story, and what is rolled in some dice. Depending on the details of the set-up, the players may also be able to make choices which determine which bit of the notes the GM reads first (eg if they decide their PCs go to the woods, the GM reads out that bit; if they decied their PCs go to the hills, the GM reads out that other bit). That's not zero agency, but in the context of a game in which a significant goal is the collective generation of a shared fiction, it is rather passive. It contrasts fairly markedly, for instance, with a game where the GM is not allowed to change what's written in his/her notes, and hence, therefore, in which the player...


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Tuesday, 11th December, 2018

  • 04:27 PM - Jester David quoted Mercurius in post Rate the Star Wars Movies
    Well, first of all I'd question taking a six-year old to see a Star Wars movie. Who do you think the Star Wars movies are for, apart from kids? The success of the films owes as much to toy sales as the box office.
  • 02:32 PM - Jer quoted Mercurius in post How to trim 5E down to "Rules Lite" (for kids)
    While 5E is far simpler than the "rules heavy" 4E and 3.5E versions of D&D, it is still very much a "rules medium" game - if not "medium plus" - and probably requires a base level of either nerdy 12 year olds, or non-nerdy 14-15 year olds to grasp the entire RAW. ... Thoughts? I could also just run them through something like Wrath of Ashardalon, but wanted to give them the "real" D&D experience of theater of mind immersion rather than a boardgame. As much as we enjoy boardgames (logged many hours of Dungeon, although recently our go-to has been the tried and true Monopoly), they just aren't the same as D&D. Echoing dave2008, they can probably handle a lot more than you think. My son started playing 4th edition when he was about 6 and, while he was kind of advanced for his age, I wouldn't have put him up against a 10 year old in the development department. We started him with a fairly easy character class (fighter) and turned him loose - now he's 10 and he plays mostly wizard types. ...
  • 10:44 AM - Li Shenron quoted Mercurius in post How to trim 5E down to "Rules Lite" (for kids)
    While 5E is far simpler than the "rules heavy" 4E and 3.5E versions of D&D, it is still very much a "rules medium" game - if not "medium plus" - and probably requires a base level of either nerdy 12 year olds, or non-nerdy 14-15 year olds to grasp the entire RAW. I was thinking of introducing my two non-nerdy (but imaginative) daughters, age 13 and 10 to the game, but wanted to trim it down a bit. My 13-year old is quite young for her age with limited mathematical and analytical skills, so think more in terms of my younger daughter as a baseline. I think over time they could grasp the full rules, but I would rather start simpler. Preliminary thoughts: *Get rid of skills, use ability checks only. This is pretty obvious, even a no-brainer. PCs would be proficient in whatever their class saving throws are, with a few exceptions (e.g. rangers would have to get a hybrid Nature/Survival skill). *Get rid of backgrounds, archetypes, sub-classes. Sounds like a lot, but could do without, ...
  • 04:59 AM - Jester David quoted Mercurius in post Rate the Star Wars Movies
    Six-year olds also prefer donuts to kale. Should we listen to them for nutritional guidance and let them decide on their diet? Ultimately it is the parents' choice what their six-year old eats, just as it is the choice of adult film producers what they're selling to young people. What we've seen for the last 40 years is a kind of "stimulation inflation," which has encouraged a kind of numbing of the senses in younger people, who want more and bigger and faster. I see it as a kind of cultural decline. And just so we're clear, I think we've evolved in some ways as well. But film--as a whole--has become more about dopamine excitement than good story and myth telling. Thereís a big difference between dietary health and getting them to enjoy a movie. You canít force someone to enjoy a film or become a fan of a franchise. Not anymore than Iím a soccer fan because my dad kept exposing me to games.

Saturday, 8th December, 2018

  • 11:43 PM - dave2008 quoted Mercurius in post How to trim 5E down to "Rules Lite" (for kids)
    While 5E is far simpler than the "rules heavy" 4E and 3.5E versions of D&D, it is still very much a "rules medium" game - if not "medium plus" - and probably requires a base level of either nerdy 12 year olds, or non-nerdy 14-15 year olds to grasp the entire RAW. I was thinking of introducing my two non-nerdy (but imaginative) daughters, age 13 and 10 to the game, but wanted to trim it down a bit. My 13-year old is quite young for her age with limited mathematical and analytical skills, so think more in terms of my younger daughter as a baseline. I think over time they could grasp the full rules, but I would rather start simpler. I bet they can handle more than you think. I started my sons on full blown 4e when they were 6 & 8 and they handled it just fine. If you want to streamline it, just use basic D&D: fewer classes & races, and no feats. Play with that and then you can add more later.
  • 10:31 PM - Satyrn quoted Mercurius in post "Solo-crawling" Dungeon of the Mad Mage
    1) What would be the "best" duo in terms of class combinations for a dungeon crawl? There is only right answer to this question: a fighter and a bard. Named Xena and Gabrielle Okay, two right answers. A ninja and an acrobat. Named Batman and Robin.
  • 09:07 AM - ccs quoted Mercurius in post X-Men to MCU Merger - wild speculations
    There has been speculation that Captain Marvel will show up in Endgame to help defeat Thanos, but who knows. As Brie Larson is listed among the cast of Endgame, & Capt. Marvel was specifically paged by Fury in the credits of Infinity War, I'd say that it's a virtual lock.... And there's a reason Capt. Marvel opens 1 month before Endgame. It's to establish the character & get all the non-comic readers up to speed on who this new character is before dumping her into the mix come April. I also predict that we'll be seeing more of her as making that solo movie to introduce her would be pretty pointless & expensive if there weren't future plans.... There's a huge void, though, as to what 2020 and beyond will look like. ] No there's not. We're just not privy to the majority of the details yet. But I'm going to bet (based on IMDB); Scarlet Witch survives - gets a series on Disney's new streaming service, Black Widow survives & headlines her own movie, Loki survives - get's his own series...
  • 05:14 AM - trappedslider quoted Mercurius in post X-Men to MCU Merger - wild speculations
    So next year we'll have Avengers: Endgame, Dark Phoenix, and Captain Marvel. There has been speculation that Captain Marvel will show up in Endgame to help defeat Thanos, but who knows. Um it isn't speculation, what is speculation is HOW.
  • 03:09 AM - doctorbadwolf quoted Mercurius in post Ridding D&D of All Races - Multiple Choice Poll
    My first contact with goliaths in D&D was 4e and probably this image: 103563 Can you see why I would associate them with video games? It is an initial imprinting. But you're right - they don't have to be that way, and I can adapt them to the context of my homebrew in a way that I don't feel comfortable doing with tieflings and dragonborn. I generally donít remember the first image I ever saw of any given thing, so that may be part of the disconnect here. First impressions just donít mean as much to me as they to do a lot of other folks. I also first met goliaths in the Races of Stone book, which also helps. Dragonborn and Tieflings require things of the setting, so I can get them. Especially Tieflings. Dragonborn donít actually even require dragons to exist (though they should at least be in myth and/or history, otherwise a name change is appropriate. Tieflings, though, require a whole slew of world building assumptions to even exist. Still, visually, they can look however yo...

Friday, 7th December, 2018

  • 11:57 PM - Istbor quoted Mercurius in post The Problem Of Disney Star Wars
    One more thing. Disney Star Wars has crappy villains. I love Adam Driver in Indie films (e.g. Paterson, What if? etc) and he made Girls watchable, but he is terribly miscast and I can't shake the Darth Emo nickname. In fact, his best moment as Kylo Ren was in that SNL skit. Snoke was just a pale mockery of Palpatine. Compare them to Darth Vader, arguably the greatest film villain of all time (do you remember his sheer presence when you were a kid?!), and the truly malevolent Emperor - not to mention secondary villains like Jabba, Boba Fett and the other bounty hunters, etc. Nah, I think Driver is perfect. Kylo Ren is also so. I don't want an endless parade of Darth Vaders and Emperor Palpatines. They are gone. And maybe that is very realistic. Vader was a great villian and he had great presence, but should every Sith? Should every villian be the same cookie cutter uber strong and domineering? I think not. We won't see Vader's like again, or at least not for a long time, and that to me i...
  • 10:34 PM - doctorbadwolf quoted Mercurius in post Ridding D&D of All Races - Multiple Choice Poll
    As with the other "post-traditional" races, more than anything else it is an aesthetic quality that I don't connect with. I have an aversion to video games as a whole (another topic), and when I think of dragonborn, tieflings, shardminds, goliath etc, I just imagine them running around in a World of Warcraft simulation. As for goliath specifically, they are the least "offensive" and, to be honest, I'd probably allow them. But I'd probably customize them to my setting and say that they are something like the descendents of a race created by dwarves during a darker era of their history to be slave-warriors. I don't get it, but if it works for you, great. I really really don't get how goliaths fit into any of that, though. They aren't video game reminiscent at all. And like...they are big giantish people who live in the high mountain, why the need for any rewrite? idk, like I said, you do you, I just don't get it at all. Maybe because they're Vin Diesel, the Race. ;) But......
  • 10:30 PM - doctorbadwolf quoted Mercurius in post Ridding D&D of All Races - Multiple Choice Poll
    Counterpoint: we see dumb gnomes because gnomes are, inherently, stupid. I mean, sure, gnomes are vicious little spiteful creatures, like a cross between a badger and your co-workers 5 year old after they've eaten the office candy, but still. Gnomish, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life. Gnome characters got no reason Gnome characters got no reason Gnome characters got no reason To be played They got little hands And little eyes And they walk around Tellin' great big lies They got little noses And tiny little teeth They wear platform shoes On their nasty little feet Well, I don't want no gnome characters Don't want no gnome characters Don't want no gnome characters In D&D. You've confused Gnomes with Dwarves, I fear. Seriously, get rid of dwarfs and harflings and keep gnomes. While things can (and possibly should) vary on a world-by-world basis, I donít think D&D should eliminate any races. That said, killoren/wilden are laaaaame and desperately need to be reimagined and tie...
  • 09:41 PM - doctorbadwolf quoted Mercurius in post Ridding D&D of All Races - Multiple Choice Poll
    My players are great. Iím not sure how my view on Gnomes reflects on my players. They donít even play gnomes. . The few people Iíve played with whoíve played Gomes (as a player, usually in a pickup group) played them in typical annoying fashion. I mean, issa joke, but also, "Sorry you've had bad players in the same group as you" is a pretty minor change. Either way, you've seen dumb gnomes because you had players who couldn't play without using dumb stereotypes. I'd have to ban dwarves, clerics, most elves, halflings, and farmboys if I banned game options based on bad players! It really depends upon the campaign setting. Is it a "D&D default" style setting, ala the Realms? Then allow all races. Is it more thematic? Then include races to fit the theme. I generally don't allow goliath, dragonborn or tieflings, because I don't really like them aesthetically and they tend to clash thematically with my homebrews (don't get me started on shardminds). Now if I had a player who absolu...

Thursday, 6th December, 2018

  • 09:52 PM - doctorbadwolf quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    This "Dragonlance = romance and tragedy" idea makes me long for a Chronicles re-write by Guy Gavriel Kay. <Ugly cries in Tigana> Seriously, though, I just reread Tigana and the Tapestry, and...yeah, that would brutal. Just imagine his writing on the events like the Death of Sturm Brightblade. Ugh. That said, Weiss and Hickman have grown immensely since then, and she at least wants to do a rewrite of the Chronicles. Iíd fancast him as Verminaard in a Dragonlance movie. I think heís too old for Caramon, who was 22 at the start of the War of the Lance, and if you cast him as another Hero of the Lance, then youíve got to cast someone even bigger as Caramon. Jason Momoa is probably a smidge too old, sadly. That, and Caramon isn't likeable enough.
  • 04:01 PM - Ralif Redhammer quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    Iíd fancast him as Verminaard in a Dragonlance movie. I think heís too old for Caramon, who was 22 at the start of the War of the Lance, and if you cast him as another Hero of the Lance, then youíve got to cast someone even bigger as Caramon. And oh yeah, sorry Mr Manganiello - you're a decent actor, but you're not Tanis. Sturm maybe?

Tuesday, 4th December, 2018

  • 02:35 AM - dave2008 quoted Mercurius in post Mythological Figures: Odysseus/Ulysses (5E)
    For the life of me I don't know why you give such (relatively speaking) low ability scores for mythological figures. A 12 Strength of Odysseus?! That's just the obvious one, but all of them are way too low. Mike has made this pretty clear from the beginning and every time this is brought up, but I will just repeat my response from post #10 in this thread: "Though I generally agree with you, I believe the intent of this series is to make it as RAW as possible. As such, it is difficult if not impossible to get all high numbers and the feats you need to create Odysseus and use point buy (which is what I think he is using). I would revise some things, but I don't think you can reasonably get three 18s with the concept of this series." EDIT: To clarify, the point of this thread is not to create a NPC that best reflects a mythic hero, but the more difficult challenge of creating a mythic hero with the RAW PC rules, and then discuss what changes we would make within the concept of the thread. It i...

Friday, 30th November, 2018

  • 09:29 PM - guachi quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    I've said before that I think the best way to handle Greyhawk is to go all in on a single, deluxe product. OK, two products: do a PDF like the Eberron one that can essentially be put together by a single person for relatively little cost, but then do a commemorative deluxe box set that includes elements of the glassic Greyhawk box set, the city box set, and Castle Greyhawk...I'm talking a huge $150-200 product. A deluxe product for serious collectors. And then just leave it. Absolutely. The market for 5e seems to be large enough to handle such a product. I'd think you could move 10,000 units of a $150 product easily enough and you wouldn't need to support it further. Fans would know they were getting a well-supported, high-quality product all in one box. I'd buy such a product and I'm only marginally a Greyhawk fan.
  • 04:42 PM - Ralif Redhammer quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    The novels were absolutely part of the appeal Ė Dragonlance represented a multimedia blitz. Heck, there was even a cookbook (which, Iíll admit, I still use). When I went and re-read the first two Dragonlance trilogies, Sturmís death was telegraphed so strongly, it felt fated, a destiny. Flintís, on the other hand, remained rough Ė itís so normal, and, err, human. Chris Perkins has repeatedly talked about the importance of story in the game. Dragonlance absolutely ties into that. To my newly emerging emotional self, the deaths of Sturm and Flint were heart-wrenching. In a way, Dragonlance essentialized the approach that WotC is taking now: making story front and center.
  • 12:05 PM - Paul Farquhar quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    I think the reason Dragonlance was so popular was, first and foremost, the Dragonlance Chronicles novels. In terms of writing they were awful, but in terms of story they were quite good, and even the characters were fun and alive - especially to the target demographic, the tween and teen D&D fanbase. How many early teen boys (such as myself) identified with Tanis, fell in love with Laurana and had early lustful thoughts about Kitiara? To my newly emerging emotional self, the deaths of Sturm and Flint were heart-wrenching. In a way, Dragonlance essentialized the approach that WotC is taking now: making story front and center. But they did it through a great big meta-plot, with a corresponding railroady campaign. 4E came out 30 years later, with 30 years of D&D worlds and stories and trends, and an entirely different generation (or two!). Most new D&D players are Millenials and Gen Zers, who were born after 9/11, with a very different worldview. But what I'm getting at is that I think the D&...
  • 10:10 AM - delericho quoted Mercurius in post WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019
    I've said before that I think the best way to handle Greyhawk is to go all in on a single, deluxe product. OK, two products: do a PDF like the Eberron one that can essentially be put together by a single person for relatively little cost, but then do a commemorative deluxe box set that includes elements of the glassic Greyhawk box set, the city box set, and Castle Greyhawk...I'm talking a huge $150-200 product. A deluxe product for serious collectors. And then just leave it. Yeah, that would be good.


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