View Profile: Ted Serious - D&D, Pathfinder, and RPGs at Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 18th July, 2018, 02:31 AM
    Obviously. But they succeeded. They were trying so hard for new MMO fans they drove away the D&D fans they had.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 18th July, 2018, 02:17 AM
    Yes. They drove their fans away. Paizo does not want to do that with Pathfinder 2. They will not make the mistakes WotC did with 4e.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 01:58 AM
    Your odd numbered points seem like conventional explanations of metagaming. You say you don't like metagaming and want to discuss eliminating it from 5e. The even numbered points sound like special pleading to exempt any metagaming you do like. That makes it very hard to discuss solutions, since we have no way of knowing what might or might not be acceptable. Now your old friend...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:01 PM
    In other threads I've heard the whole industry is up to 45 million revenue. With 15 million people playing D&D. I've also heard a claim that the goal was 50 million. Between D&D and Pathfinder, we are pretty close to that goal. And, no Pathfinder 2 is nothing like 4e. It does not want to drive its fans away.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 05:42 PM
    Thanks for putting that into perspective.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 13th July, 2018, 03:14 PM
    4e failed for want of fans. Even if they all feel spurned by 5e that would be a bad market to sell too. There may be some convergent evolution. Pathfinder 2 is evolving directly from Pathfinder. Pathfinder evolved from D&D. 4e was a sterile hybrid of D&D and Wow that went extinct and 5e is devolving back towards AD&D. But sharing some traits is inevitable. They're all still closely...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 13th July, 2018, 03:01 PM
    I don't like metagame. If I like something, it must not be metagame. Contraposition. Valid in form. Assumes perfect consistency in a subjective judgement. Vancian old memorization or 3e or Pathfinder preparation is not metagame. Memorizing or preparing spells based on player knowledge is. 5e slot casting sounds metagame. The slots don't represent anything.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Sunday, 8th July, 2018, 03:48 AM
    You said 3.5 did not suffer from this class of mechanics that cannot be named. With Pathfinder 3.5 has had the longest publication history. The most books published. The most support of any Pencil & Paper RPG ever. If it works for you, you need nothing else. Pathfinder 2 should work for you also. The only complaint with 5e is Hit Dice, Inspiration, and a couple fighter things. You're...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 7th July, 2018, 02:15 PM
    METAGAME n. A game about games; a game based on exploiting the rules etc. of some other game, at a higher level than simply playing the game normally. Metagaming is something we do, not something a game is. You have a short list of things that are a problem. Just cut them. You're the DM, it's your job. Give the fighter more magic items if you feel sorry for him and move on.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 05:18 PM
    You may just run for a lot of Timmys. They're not rare. They're not all kids. The point is to steal the show. To roll huge crit damage on a kobold and crow over how far negative it went. It doesn't matter how poor his overall success is, as long as he gets the occasional moment. 4e didn't give Timmy enough and really hated Spike. It was a Jimmy game.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 05:01 PM
    You want a discussion of this class of mechanics. We can't discuss something without knowing what it is. You gave some examples. But nothing else we ask about qualifies. If it was the whole list. As DM just remove them. Run shorter adventures or give clerics more slots to make up for the loss of HD. Timmy can play a barbarian.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 05:03 AM
    I don't understand. The player making a decision the character could not that changes history. How does that not fall in the metagame. Can you give an example other than HD or the fighter.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 02:32 AM
    Seriously?
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 02:27 AM
    Fighters have always been the most popular. They've always been pretty bad choices. Big numbers, no vesatility. They're Timmy Cards.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, 02:13 AM
    I see. You're finding some hypocrisy in holding one franchise to a different standard than another. I haven't seen TLJ. But I think 4e corresponds to the extended universe materials that got cut. The current movies to 5e.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Monday, 2nd July, 2018, 05:40 AM
    Pelgraines Archmage Engine srd has a fighter that uses maneuvers randomly. Pathfinder CMB is an improvement over skill checks. Fighters are actually good at maneuvers. And you don't need to expend a meta resource or wait for the GM or dice to just hand it to you. Pathfinder 2 changed the action economy so you have more flexibility in combat. The legendary mundane feats I've heard...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Monday, 2nd July, 2018, 04:07 AM
    So playing a sorcerer from level one is fine. But multiclassing to sorcerer later would be an issue. You could just add a requirement that any bloodline be declared at character generation to deal with that.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Sunday, 1st July, 2018, 10:40 PM
    It had a very anime feel, shouting the name of your style or kata or spell as you attack. The players not the characters obviously. Though I had players do that in 3e, because they just had to do the magical girl thing and spell names got pretty silly. 2e got sillier Leomund's Lamentable Belabourment. That was always a moment in D&D when you cast a big spell. 4e let everyone have...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 04:16 PM
    I was puzzling over your use of metagame. I should have just read more carefully. You can ignore my last few posts. Sorry. I do still think that removing the offending fighter abilities and changing how HD are spent could remove any unwanted player narrative control.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 03:54 PM
    The Truenamer was abysmal. Bad mechanics. Not exactly a caster. You have a good point. I was thinking nerf in the sense of existing casters.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 02:04 PM
    Mike Mearls has already shared his initiative house rules.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 01:52 PM
    So it's when a player makes a decision for the character that is beyond the characters control. For instance taking a level of sorcerer and choosing a bloodline. The character can't decide to acquire a supernatural ancestor. He can't decide that ancestor was a dragon. He can't decide it was a dragon that had fire as its breath weapon. The player makes all those decisions. That's not...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 07:22 AM
    NPC classes were a nice feature, they were a tool for the DM in adding world details in a sensible way. Players could even use them for builds that reflected a more extensive non-adventuring background.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 06:43 AM
    There has to be a line somewhere. Obviously a player chooses a characters race, for instance. There's no way the character made that decision. So it can't be absolute. To me, the obvious line is something the character does. You do rest for an hour when you spend HD. It's not realistic, there's no reason resting 57 min should give you no benefit or 90 min not give you more. But the...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 06:25 AM
    You should definitely look at Pathfinder if you're not already playing it. Pathfinder 2 has a lot of promise, but I'm not sure exactly what is triggering you from your examples. For instance you might not like legendary skill feats.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 04:47 AM
    Maybe you should rethink your question. Do you want answer or are you just trying to make Pathfinder 2 look bad by associating it with the controversy surrounding 4e.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Saturday, 30th June, 2018, 04:39 AM
    The at-will magic was the warlock. The martial magic was the sword sage. The warblade was interesting but not magical. And no late 3e experiment nerfed casting into the ground.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:24 PM
    I have, twice. The essence of 4e is that it is a Pencil and Paper Class Based Fantasy RPG. It is derivative of D&D, just like many other games including Warcraft. A game inspired by a derivative of D&D will appear derivative of D&D. The only point of saying Pathfinder 2 is like 4e or like 5e is to poison it for potential fans who dislike either of those games.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:10 PM
    He can choose not to, because his spells are his resource. He can be a team player or not. When one party member gets hurt more the others can step up or they can not care about him until he is out of HD, then complain he's forcing them to rest.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:05 PM
    If they had started with Pathfinder or Dundeon World or even 1e reprints under exactly the same circumstances they could feel exactly the same way.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:00 PM
    You're saying 4e was far ahead of its time. I'm saying it was an aberration. If some future edition is just like 4e, we'll know you're right.
    347 replies | 11663 view(s)
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 05:17 AM
    Spells are the resource of the caster, he can use them as a team member or not, but they are his decision. The same is true of hit points, HD or healing surges, you can manage them as a personal or a team resource. The glass cannon who is too aggressive runs out of HD and depletes the healers spells that could have been better used while others HD are still plentiful. Unless the healer...
    171 replies | 5867 view(s)
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 05:04 AM
    We can objectively eliminate transient features, like AEDU or math that was fixed or subjective reactions. We are left with a Class based Paper and Pencil Fantasy RPG. If you loved or hated 4e over and above any other edition, it had nothing to do with its Essence. We can't conclude anything about the essence of Wizards or Paizo. I know which one I percieve having a better attitude...
    171 replies | 5867 view(s)
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:46 AM
    Hit Dice and spells are still individual resources. Everyone going in on some wands of lesser vigour would be a team healing resource.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Friday, 29th June, 2018, 04:37 AM
    Truer to the direction established by 3.0 and 3.5. 4e was a radical change. The article did make sense though. That established direction would not have brought in the desired subscription revenue in the short term. It might have by now that the technology has arrived be doing better than 5e is. No way to know. The editions since 3.5 seem to be performing based on marketing and trends,...
    347 replies | 11663 view(s)
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Thursday, 28th June, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Pathfinder 2 is still taking shape. It seems truer to the direction D&D was going than 4e was. It would have been less controversial and done better. 5e would not have been needed.
    347 replies | 11663 view(s)
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Thursday, 28th June, 2018, 01:57 PM
    4e was a matter of direction. It tried to make 3.5 beter by fixing problems instead of building on strengths. That change of direction alienated their base. Pathfinder made 3.5 better by building on its strengths. Hopefully Pathfinder 2 will continue in that direction. 5e just backed up from both those directions. It gave up most of what 3.5 Pathfinder and 4e had done. Like Disney...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Thursday, 28th June, 2018, 01:39 PM
    Essence is uncertain until death. 4e is dead we can be certain of its essence. A problem it solved or a virtue it abandoned cannot be part of that.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 27th June, 2018, 03:10 PM
    4e was simplified easy mode D&D for players and DM. Compared to 3e or Pathfinder. As opposed to 5e which is simplified easy mode for players and God Mode for the DM.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 27th June, 2018, 02:33 PM
    It does put those problems in perspective. Another perspective, you are harping on problems 4e had in its first year and had fixed before its second ended. Depending on the fix for proof of a problem. 4e is a dead system, no amount of criticism, even if it were valid will help it improve. 5e encounter guidelines are more complicated to use than 3e or 4e and produce less dependable...
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Wednesday, 27th June, 2018, 02:24 AM
    Bounded Accuracy is just a much slower treadmill. It's not just the monsters or the DC it's also your buddies. Every class advancing in lock-step as they level up their 5e 'Proficiency' is no different from 4e doing away with BAB.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Tuesday, 26th June, 2018, 04:13 AM
    Same game, different packaging.
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  • Ted Serious's Avatar
    Tuesday, 26th June, 2018, 04:11 AM
    Essentially 4e is a Class based Paper & Pencil Fantasy RPG. So is Pathfinder. So too will be Pathfinder 2. You all are borrowing trouble.
    171 replies | 5867 view(s)
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About Ted Serious

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Thursday, 28th June, 2018

  • 02:28 PM - Manbearcat mentioned Ted Serious in post What is the essence of 4E?
    Ted Serious Thank you for the response, but perhaps the thrust of my post wasn’t clear (as your response doesn’t hook into it). I was commenting on the curiosity of the non-universal application of the “don’t piss off your traditionalist base” axiom. 4e was routinely decried for its violation of it (we constantly heard the “New Coke” cautionary tale). Meanwhile, The Last Jedi (which carries the same “zeitgeist DNA as D&D) at least equally violated the axiom, yet some/many (who lambasted 4e for its violation of the axiom) lauded it for “subverting expectations.” My takeaway is that invocations of “don’t piss off your traditionalists/base” can’t possibly be the lesson to be learned. More like “do stuff I like or I’m going to be angry and wrap my anger up in justification that falls apart under scrutiny.”

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Wednesday, 18th July, 2018

  • 03:02 AM - Charlaquin quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    Obviously. But they succeeded. They were trying so hard for new MMO fans they drove away the D&D fans they had. But then “not trying to drive their fans away” is not a point of distinction between them. If WotC was able to drive fans away without trying to, so might Paizo.
  • 02:26 AM - Charlaquin quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    Yes. They drove their fans away. Paizo does not want to do that with Pathfinder 2. They will not make the mistakes WotC did with 4e. You said "Paizo isn't trying to drive their fans away." WotC didn't try to drive their fans away with 4e either.

Monday, 16th July, 2018


Friday, 13th July, 2018

  • 07:09 PM - Aldarc quoted Ted Serious in post A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
    Vancian pre-memorization isn't really meta in and of itself; one can if one wants quite easily justify it within a setting as being how magic functions - you have to prepare the spells now that you're going to unleash later.Part of the issue is that the entire vancian magic system works in the meta economy of spell slots and levels where you can cast X number of times per day. I don't mind Vancian slots - way better than spell points, and I've used both - but I've come to detest Vancian pre-memorization in any form.I usually prefer magic as "skill" rolls/checks (e.g., Blue Rose, True20). Keep casting until you fatigue yourself. This would also be fantastic for a fail-forward or success-with-a-cost subsystem. So the caster could "fail" the ability check for the casting roll, but then force themselves to cast it no matter the cost to themselves because of its necessity to the mission. How is it metagame for the PC wizard to say to his companions, "We are about to set foot into the Mountain...
  • 06:31 PM - Charlaquin quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    That's unlikely. 3e fans turned to Pathfinder, because it was essentially 3e. Pathfinder 2 is being billed as similar, even compatible with Pathfinder, which means that it is not essentially 4e, so it's not really something that 4e fans would turn to. More likely they will just go to a new system altogether or continue playing 4e. While there may be a lot of ideas from 4E going into PF2, I don't think its enough to make a 4E fan give up that edition. PF2 lacks AEDU, which I see as the mechanic that defines 4E, the reason to play or not play that game. I am a 4e fan seriously considering turning to PF2, so it can’t be that remote a possibility. Even if it’s not a 4e clone, it has a lot of elements of 4e that I love, along with some new ideas that I like such as the 3-Action economy and Bulk. And one very important thing that 4e doesn’t have - active support. AEDU isn’t really that core to 4e’s identity to me. PF2 already adopted the part of AEDU I liked the most, which was the clear, concise, ...
  • 05:48 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    4e failed for want of fans. Even if they all feel spurned by 5e that would be a bad market to sell too. 4e failed to hit a revenue goal set by Hasbro that even the entire industry, today, would still be failing to meet. While there may be a lot of ideas from 4E going into PF2, I don't think its enough to make a 4E fan give up that edition. PF2 lacks AEDU, which I see as the mechanic that defines 4E, the reason to play or not play that game. OTOH, total lack of support for the last 6 years goes a fair way towards getting you to give up an edition. And AEDU isn't so much the core/essence of 4e, as the consistency with which it was applied. It could have been AED or ADU or LMNOP, or , IDK, everyone getting feats like a 3.0 fighter and all you abilities coming from them... ...hey, that last is maybe just a bit like PF2, afterall. ;)

Thursday, 12th July, 2018

  • 08:34 PM - Henry quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    Pathfinder 2 is still taking shape. It seems truer to the direction D&D was going than 4e was. It would have been less controversial and done better. 5e would not have been needed. What a difference ten years makes. So many of the changes that 4e made have similarities in changes to PF2 (skill ranks by level instead of points; attacks, AC, and saves driven by level instead of charts; much tighter math for both PCs and monster creation rules) as have some ideas that we saw in 5e (such as a version of the "Groovian" magic system) . A large number of Pathfinder players are pretty happy with these changes (I'm not going to say "most", because I can't say with certainty). O do know that in addition to a lot of people online, that my home group is pretty stoked about all they've read so far. I think it proved, if anything, that a lot of people just weren't ready for a change back then, and the way the change was handled was more of the problem than the changes themselves.

Monday, 9th July, 2018

  • 06:15 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Ted Serious in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    You're saying 4e was far ahead of its time. I'm saying it was an aberration. If some future edition is just like 4e, we'll know you're right. No new edition will be 'just like 4e' but one could go FAR BEYOND 4e in the directions it took, which would be incredibly awesome in my book. In fact, that is probably the only game WotC could publish at this time which would get me to pay money for it.

Sunday, 8th July, 2018

  • 09:50 PM - Emerikol quoted Ted Serious in post A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
    You said 3.5 did not suffer from this class of mechanics that cannot be named. With Pathfinder 3.5 has had the longest publication history. The most books published. The most support of any Pencil & Paper RPG ever. If it works for you, you need nothing else. Pathfinder 2 should work for you also. The only complaint with 5e is Hit Dice, Inspiration, and a couple fighter things. You're the DM, you can just get rid of them. You don't need any help or advice to figure that out. So why are you posting this at all. When you also complain you've done so many times before. And that you were attacked for it. It sounds like that's what you want. To be attacked. You have everything you say you want from a game. Always have. Do you just need to be attacked for it. To stop feeling guilty for all that privilege. I was mostly wanting to discuss specific approaches. Bawylie's post above on his solution to the problem would be the sort of post that is helpful to the conversati...

Saturday, 7th July, 2018

  • 11:53 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Ted Serious in post Resonance, Potency, & Potions: A Look At Magic Items in Pathfinder 2
    Worst except for all the others could imply just as bad. Or unacceptable in other ways. 1e and 2e were just primitive. 5e tries too hard to be like them. 4e is not enough like them. 3.5 is still where D&D left off. Pathfinder is still carrying on from there. I disagree that AD&D's solution is 'primitive'. I think it could be tweaked slightly but it did work quite well. Items had a 'sale value', but since it was impossible to make most items this was really a SALE value, which is basically quite high, but something like what a player might actually agree to part with an item for. Purchase of items is left more as an exercise, but in practice the sums quoted in the 1e DMG are large enough that the most likely scenario is barter, trading one item for another. Items are VERY difficult to make. This precludes magic item manufacture as either a business proposition, or as a way to achieving some huge stockpile of items. Some things are notable: Scrolls are not cheap, but PCs can pen spell scroll...
  • 04:27 AM - Hussar quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    Players should have their own books that they need to for their characters. So they aren't constantly passing around one book at the table and can build or level them on their own. I understand there are casual players. It surprised if they're such a vast majority. Why surprised? It's always been thus. The number of gamers who buy books is a tiny, tiny minority of players.

Friday, 6th July, 2018

  • 01:37 PM - Eis quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    Players should have their own books that they need to for their characters. So they aren't constantly passing around one book at the table and can build or level them on their own. I understand there are casual players. It surprised if they're such a vast majority. its nice but I don't think that it falls under the category of SHOULD I dm for my son's friends.....a couple of them have bought players' handbooks but not all of them have and it isn't necessary

Thursday, 5th July, 2018

  • 05:31 AM - Umbran quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    Freeloaders bother me. They aren't freeloading. Freeloaders are people who take advantage of the generosity of others, but give nothing in return. I buy enough stuff for a group to play a game. They come and give me a game in return. I would not purchase *any* materials if I didn't have a group to play with. The large number of people who don't need to purchase are required to make the games run.
  • 01:44 AM - Neonchameleon quoted Ted Serious in post What is the essence of 4E?
    4e didn't give Timmy enough and really hated Spike. It was a Jimmy game. On the contrary, 4e loved Spike. It just made Spike start from square 1, causing a lot of Spikes to quit in disgust. It makes sense. They avoid constant rehashes and fan angst, and yet keep restoking the fires of fandom for each setting. I just think that FR is uniquely possessed of a kind of rabid nit-picky fanbase that might best just be avoided. Certainly 4e would have done better to just not touch it. Instead they could have done a nice Kara-Tur or even Dragon Lance reboot. Either one of those would have been substantially less fraught and left a lot more room for reinterpreting the setting in 4e terms. Eberron was, by all accounts, a good solid 4e success, and DS worked GREAT. ... I'm pretty vague in my knowledge of DL, but there's a lot there, and the lore, IIRC, covers a bunch of different time periods and setups, but its all 'epic fantasy'. It could have been pushed out as the world that concentrated on ep...

Wednesday, 4th July, 2018

  • 07:50 PM - Emerikol quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    I it's 15 million 5e D&D players and only 100k customers for supplements, why keep printing books 95% of your fans don't want to buy. Optional tends to sell less than mandatory. A LOT of DMs make their own worlds and their own dungeons. Also, a LOT of people buy rules but never play. Books sold is no indication of games being played. I do think Roll20 though provides some good information because it's actually playing sessions. I own a ton of roleplaying games I have never played. I enjoy reading rpg rules :-).
  • 06:31 PM - Morrus quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    Yes. Freeloaders bother me. D&D has supposedly been almost dropped twice for low revenue. Have you never watched a movie at a friend’s house, borrowed a book, taken a ride in somebody else’s car, or played a board game belonging to somebody else? Letting other people use your stuff is not freeloading, it’s normal. I’d hate to live in a world where it wasn’t.
  • 05:37 PM - Emerikol quoted Ted Serious in post What is the essence of 4E?
    You may just run for a lot of Timmys. They're not rare. They're not all kids. The point is to steal the show. To roll huge crit damage on a kobold and crow over how far negative it went. It doesn't matter how poor his overall success is, as long as he gets the occasional moment. 4e didn't give Timmy enough and really hated Spike. It was a Jimmy game. Well my point is that it never bothered me or my players. It's a problem we never felt was an issue. So 4e set out to solve a problem that was non-existent for my group. Many of their "fixes" damaged the game for my group. Since the problem is about making the game less fun for some people, it's not an absolute problem. It's a problem for some people and some groups. Just like metagame is limited to groups like mine. It doesn't mean it is not of concern. Now having said that. In 1e/2e, I would probably make the Rogue as subclass of fighter in the same way Ranger or Paladin was a subclass of fighter. So the rogue would ge...
  • 05:27 PM - Morrus quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    Dollars divided by players. It looked like 2 bucks per player, it's even less. And this bothers you?
  • 05:08 PM - Morrus quoted Ted Serious in post How big's the RPG market?
    It's not even all D&D. I don’t really know what that means.
  • 12:33 PM - Emerikol quoted Ted Serious in post A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
    I don't understand. The player making a decision the character could not that changes history. How does that not fall in the metagame. Can you give an example other than HD or the fighter. Well, in the past like the early editions of the game, anything like that that required something innate to the character was not something I allowed at all but your example is pretty rare. I doubt I'd allow it now. But again, I've never had a single sorcerer character in my games (maybe one in 4e but as you see that was where I became fully enlightened to the issue). I disliked things in prior editions and probably at heart had the same goals but I figured out "one" of the things it was during my play of 4e. It clicked at that point I guess. Multiclassing and dual classing are both fraught with peril in my book. Multiclassing if you don't do it right up front doesn't feel right to me. In 1e, 2e, the only multiclassing we did was right at the start you took fighter/magic user. You'd never g...


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