View Profile: Garthanos - D&D, Pathfinder, and RPGs at Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 05:12 AM
    For me, "linear adventures"/railroading are fun when the characters are fairly vibrant (and so there is fun to be had bringing my character to life as part of play, given the other main bit of play - making choices that shape the fiction - is not really happening) and the GM/module is providing an engaging story that the vibrant characters fit into well. I've enjoyed CoC played in this style,...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Today, 04:18 AM
    Oh, I'll go further. People are foolish to criticize others for simply wanting to play a certain game. Beyond that there's nothing wrong with a 'railroad'. I think its best to do it explicitly and consciously as a means of play, and not accidentally and covertly, but I'd say the same about any mode of play if I thought about it for a second. I mean, 'player agency' doesn't really factor in, nor...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Today, 03:12 AM
    I picture the specialist as being darn-near unplayable, like a 3e NPC class. Though, the mostly-daily is pedantic, I think it would work better as an all-at-will like the Stalwart. Maybe Wild-something for the mostly-daily type...? The point, though, is intentional imbalance favoring the 'Hero.'
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 02:55 AM
    One of the 4e descendant threads has something very akin to that... on 4enclave.org however my experience has been it's way way too easy to yank the game into being all about the specialist mayaps the problem is they become a specialist in so many things as they level instead of staying a narrow solution.
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Today, 02:32 AM
    Yeah, obviously a lot of people fell into that trap with SCs. OTOH if you took it to the other extreme, where the situation was highly dynamic and the choice of skill was a real decision between different approaches, which lead to different fictional positioning going forward, etc. that could be very gamist as well (in heretic888's Big Three sense of gamist), allowing for a lot of thought and...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 02:28 AM
    The 4e rules are not a statement of in-fiction causal processes. They are a statement of processes of mechanical resolution. In this partiuclar case,succeeding on the Perception check (which is something a person at the table does, not something that a character in the fiction does) means that X loses hidden status, thus ceasing to be inivsible, and thus being able to be seen by Y's normal...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Today, 01:09 AM
    In a linear adventure, where there is no adventure but through the door, /forward/ would be more litteral. But, sure, more broadly, point taken. I rather like that one. I suppose that, with 5e, the penduulum has swung back to more DM-directed styles...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 01:05 AM
    This is another example of terminology drift. "Fail forward" is a technique that was championed by certain indie designers. The 13th Age rulebook (p 42) describes it thus: A simple but powerful improvement you can make to your game is to redefine failure as “things go wrong” instead of “the PC isn’t good enough.” Ron Edwards, Luke Crane, and other indie RPG designers have championed this...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Today, 01:04 AM
    Add some formal downtime-day requirement and that sounds like a perfectly reasonable alternative to the stat preq.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:39 AM
    Do you think this is true of combat also - that it makes no difference adjudicating combat as hp attrition, or adjudicating combat via a GM's freeform opinion of when the players have done enough to defeat their enemies?
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Today, 12:34 AM
    I suppose the idea is that you're not getting trained up in the class for a long period, like you presumably would be for your first 'Apprentice' level, but are cramming to master the new class more quickly, which requires greater raw talent? Not a terrible thing. There's enough 'traps' as it is before adding MCing to the mix...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:32 AM
    And if X is hidden from Y, then X can't be seen by Y's normal vision. You keep talking about Y defeating X's cover (by "walking around the box X is hiding behind") - but doing that means that X is no longer hidden from Y, which of course means that (assuming that X has no other source of invisibility) X is no longer invisible to Y, and hence it is no longer true that Y cannot see X with normal...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Today, 12:15 AM
    But, at 15, it's not even 'Green' yet...?
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:36 PM
    "Judge?" They still call GM's 'judges' over there? I thought that was a 70s wargaming thing...? ...sorry... anyway... It depends on the con, and I suppose varies regionally, so my experience may have no bearing, but cons often schedule at least some time between the end of one session and the start of another, so generally, just not going over time should keep you from having the problem...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:17 PM
    Darn it, now I have to go and agree with you. And we were having such a nice argument. ;) Sub-classes are in essence a way of hiding class proliferation. Instead of admitting you have 40 classes, some of them really kinda redundant, you bundle them under a few classes and call them sub-classes. They can, and in 5e do, stand in for specific MC combos, presumably, the most popular ones -...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:09 PM
    I was trying to hold up a darkly sarcastic mirror to the (miss)use of those terms, yes.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:47 PM
    Pretty sure it was clear that he was echoing things he knew were nonsense... but which seem to be "common use/understanding". It seems he also didn't get much out of them either but that seems different. (I kind of found Forge to be fun mental exercise of modelling those who model - LOL)
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:46 PM
    Further off on a tangent, maybe I should ask in your HoML thread, but, with regard to quasi-classes, things that act like classes but combine with them, I've often thought that you could leave Role & Source independently 'floating,' so you could just choose Martial & Defender, instead of Fighter, say... But, other threads about resource mixes have me thinking if it wouldn't be kosher to have a...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:33 PM
    That's certainly a thing that can happen. 3.x was big on rewarding system mastery, and 4e both invalidated that mastery and greatly reduced the relative rewards for gaining & applying mastery of it. I got less bent out of shape by that than I did when the 6th ed of Hero did the same sorta thing - though, to be fair, the challenge of acquiring system mastery was greater (and quite...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:23 PM
    Though it varies with the group, D&D /is/ a social activity, and often a lot of play time is bled off in what is essentially socializing. What isn't bled off in rules debates, protracted planning sessions, or the table-top equivalent of 'pixel-bitching,' that is. So I'd say what you're experiencing is pretty normal, and what you're seeing is the result of video-editing, maybe awareness of being...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:52 PM
    It seems reasonably hostile to D&D, too, describing both as "incoherent." In this particular instance I was posting my impressions of how the boards tend to (miss)use Forge terminology. And, no, I have made a small effort, but never found much sense in the Forge. The Threefold Model made a little sense to me back in the day, but it still mainly came off as intellectualizing the essentially...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:32 PM
    It's assuming characters can do that. But, such is only optional in 5e, so when that option is exercised, the statement is "more true" in the sense that exclusivity is more pronounced and applies to more featuers. A lot of people balked at 1e MCing. Not that demi-humans could do it, but that they could do it with only certain class combos, and had level limits, and/or that humans couldn't...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:49 PM
    I think the idea of "being stuck at a closed door" is mostly a feature of GM-driven/railroad play. In "story now" play, the story just is that the PCs didn't go through that door, so some other thing happened. I don't know what Matt Colville has to say about it, but the structure of a skill challenge serves the same purpose as the structure of combat resolution: it establishes a mechanical...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:36 PM
    And 4e/WotC did?
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:35 PM
    Just as a point of intellectual history: you do realise, don't you, that The Forge is quite hostile to White Wolf/Storyteller, and largely indifferent to D&D but with a mild sympathy for its classic/OSR version. For someone who gets worked up about what you see as falsehoods by critics of 4e, though, you don't hold back in posting nonsense about The Forge and the "threefold model". From...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:43 AM
    What would be a good name that was consistent with hp not being metagame?
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:30 AM
    Not 'less able' in the absolute sense, but 4e militates against, or at the very least facilitates the divergence from, railroaded GM-driven scripts. You can do Story Now with 4e, quite easily. Even in more traditional play the game has the character that players are much less reliant on GM interpretation of the situation for fictional positioning and such. So GMs have a lot less leverage to...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:24 AM
    So how come, then, a Cure Light Wounds spell can heal most ordinary people (in classic D&D, B/X, AD&D and 3E) from dying or on their last legs, to full health?
    407 replies | 8420 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:23 AM
    Welllllllllll, if the player actually literally is true to the reflavoring in the sense that NOTHING in the mechanics is impacted at all, then there should be no effect. At least in terms of the mechanical inputs to the game. As for the FICTIONAL inputs, and the implications in terms of fictional positioning, there's clearly an impact there. I am not sure it is proper to call it out as 'abusive',...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:18 AM
    Well, someone might have meant them this way, but it would be a caricature of how many of us use these terms, whether they're used in some sort of 'correct' way according to some place called 'The Forge' where I have neither ever posted nor ever read anything much. I mean, you're being sarcastic, but these can be useful terms. I agree they were often just tossed about by those wanting to tar...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:13 AM
    Just classes by another name. That was the upshot of my experiment, I could call it something else, but I just ended up with effectively 3 classes, or you could call them 'power sources', whatever. And then I'd still have to make a bunch of 'sub classes'. It seemed an experiment that was pointless. So I simply settled on mostly how 4e parsed it, several power sources that are loose but generally...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:49 AM
    Yes, but I should note that Story Now doesn't mean No Prep At All. You can certainly prepare potential encounters the PCs may face. However, in a Story Now context what you would also do is a) allow for multiple pathways for "defeating" the encounter, b) make sure each encounter is meaningful to the shared fiction, c) do not pre-prepare outcomes for any given encounter, and d) do not assume the...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:24 AM
    We'll have to agree to disagree. ;)
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:56 AM
    That's fine, I'm certainly not attached to the name. I can only speak from my own personal experiences, where drawing upon one's willpower to do something intensely physically demanding is a) definitely a thing, b) something human beings can do of their own volition with practice and experience, and c) not something you can do as often as you want to (i.e., its a "limited use" ability we might...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:46 AM
    Well, as I said before, I consider railroading to be much more common than most would probably be willing to accept. And it can be good fun with the right group and the right GM, so there's nothing inherently "wrong" with it.
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:41 AM
    Yep. As Tony pointed out earlier in the thread, Edition Warriors hijacked the jargon in order to demonize game systems they didn't like (in what context has "gamism" ever been used as anything other than a pejorative around these parts?). As opposed to the original intent of creative agendas, which was to talk about people's actual experiences at the table rather than dragging rules systems...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:11 AM
    Well, there may be plenty of business reasons, or at least political ones, for WotC to shun 4e. I mean, TBH, given that they were producing a new edition, there's nothing specifically amazing about the amount support or non-support that they've given 4e really. I mean, its not like 3.x got much. They HAVE IIRC issued a couple of fancy cover 3.5 core books? That was part of the 40th Anniversary...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:34 AM
    Right, not sure you're really disagreeing with what I've said here though. ;) My larger point is 4E will be an exceedingly unsatisfactory experience when railroaded because of its encounter-based design whereas in my experience railroaded games in certain other systems will produce more enjoyable play experiences. I believe this is a feature and not a bug, as 4E definitely has an anti-railroad...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:29 AM
    It sounds like your issue is less with the concept than the name, then.
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:27 AM
    I'm sorry, Emerikol, but there are low-impact maneuvers that can only be used in specific circumstances but are highly effective when pulled off. This is what limited use martial exploits represent. Now, yes, you could represent these maneuvers by making a melee combat system that is incredibly detailed and complicated and give specific fictional triggers for when to pull these off. However, at...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:14 AM
    True, but in this case it seems to owe to willful ignorance moreso than linguistic evolution. Its mostly the elements of 4E that make it amenable to Story Now play in general, although GMs are free to ignore much of these elements (and clearly quite a few did). I actually think the Skill Challenge framework is important here and how much it gets utilized by a 4E table (as well as how it...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:02 AM
    No, there are many options that are exclusive by class or race, for instance, or come at a different cost to different classes, etc... D&D has long moved towards classlessness, just never very far or fast. 5e is, as in so many ways, between the other WotC eds and the TSR eds, that way.
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:20 AM
    While I can't claim to be any kind of expert, I do have several years' experience training in wrestling, martial arts, and weightlifting. What I can claim, however, is that I categorically disagree with both of these statements and they do not mirror my real-life experiences in any way, shape, or form. I can also claim that other gamers I have spoken to who have similar background in martial arts...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:59 AM
    Heh, nice. Here are the actual definitions courtesy of the Big Model wiki: Gamism/Step On Up: http://big-model.info/w/index.php?title=Step_On_Up&redirect=no Narrativism/Story Now: http://big-model.info/wiki/Story_now Simulationism/Right To Dream: http://big-model.info/wiki/The_Right_To_Dream Basically, in a nutshell, "Gamism" is about overcoming challenges and doing strategic play in...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 10:26 PM
    Exclusivity is a key feature of class systems, yes. If any character can take any feature, at the same 'cost,' you have a classless system.
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 10:19 PM
    AFAICT from the way they get used, they mean something like: Simulationism: An irrational, uncompromising, preference not for an actual simulation (like, say civil war re-enactment), but for bad games that are bad in the ways a game would have to become if it were adapted to function as a simulation, instead - even though the games in question simulate nothing. Narrativism: the Role half...
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  • heretic888's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 09:44 PM
    Of course, nobody actually uses those Forgite terms accurately anyway. When people call 4E "gamist", for example, I can't help but laugh and roll my eyes. 4E is probably the version of DnD least suited to a Step On Up creative agenda. Meanwhile it maps to "simulationism" pretty cleanly with its fidelity to heroic fantasy genre emulation. All of which ignores the fact that Forgite creative...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 09:06 PM
    Princess Bride reference wins the thread. ;)
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:59 PM
    To be fair, The Forge had come up with those terms years before, a continuation of the Three-fold Theory that arose out of the edition-war-like (actually Storyteller v D&D) Role v Roll debate. And plenty of that, too, sure. ".... first casualty of war" and all that.
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:42 PM
    To be fair, The Forge had come up with those terms years before, a continuation of the Three-fold Theory that arose out of the edition-war-like (actually Storyteller v D&D) Role v Roll debate.
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:29 PM
    The Original OD&D 3, before the theif & paladin, map precisely to the 3 Sources in the 4e PH1. The 'Big 4' map less nearly to the 4 Roles, since the roles were so much more nearly balanced. Its been problematic since day 2, when the Thief came out, and established, that while it was OK for the magic-user to tap all the magic in genre & more ('cept healing), and for the cleric to you no...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:06 PM
    The GSL, compared to the OGL is an impediment to 3pp support. And, of course, the threat of renewed edition-war hostilities (it's not like they've really stopped, just tapered off), is an impediment to WotC. I thought OSRIC got some kind of permission? I've glanced at it, bits look to be virtually verbatim. There's hundreds of powers - per class - compared to yoinking the srd and having a...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:09 PM
    To model a wider range of characters without creating a class for each. Multiclassing options move a game from the class based extreme towards a build system. 3e is an example of a hybrid of the two, though still clearly on the class side since it preserves exclusivity with distinctions like class level, favored classes and exp penalties. 5e, as always it seems when compared to 3e, is muddled,...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 05:52 PM
    You are working very hard to make a clear, simple thing conform to your expectations of ambiguity and needless complexity. Simply repeating the same mistakes won't make them into a valid alternate interpretation. No, you are no longer Hidden in those instances. Once you are no longer Hidden, you are no longer Invisible to the creature that made the check or that you no longer have...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 05:04 PM
    Yeah, that's a fine suggestion. In HoML there is actually (currently at least) no class which is called 'Fighter', per-se. However it is somewhat hard to do. Maybe its just that the idea of that class is etched deeply into the DNA of D&D-likes, but it does afford a lot of flexibility to players in terms of imagining their character's details. OD&D, with its 'big 4' (especially the Fighting Man...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 04:48 PM
    Well, I didn't see in 13A the things that were mechanically characteristic of 4e in contrast to 5e. Like 5e it has a mix of different resource models and class implementation mechanics. It lacks a power/role classification structure, even implicitly, etc. It lost the explicit resource framework of short and long rest refresh cadence as well, though not entirely. It does have a pretty story...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 04:28 PM
    In development Forerunner an OGL derivation of 4e concepts and core functionality without IP or copyright issues.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 03:58 PM
    I generally think I can make heroic tier characters in 4e feel pretty legendary or mythic ... how one handles minions and how both players and DMs presents things can be a huge difference. Although things could definitely be adjusted to make some of that easier.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 03:37 PM
    Theres always the name "Map makers who run away as much as possible and steal whenever they can til spell casters can kick everythings ass" but that is too long and the theme has already been taken.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 03:35 PM
    This post was removed from where I posted it in the first place so meh...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 01:41 PM
    It's an interesting juxtaposition. Obviously 4e, BW and Cortex+ Heroic (the three systems I work with at the moment) handle this very differently. 4e is closest to your (1), BW to your (2). Cortex+ Heroic is intermediate.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 11:32 AM
    On this occasion, we are in agreement!
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 09:57 AM
    But why do you need "patching up", if they're not being impeded in their performance? In my experience, the actual play of hit points and healing is all about making sure no one drops below zero; but how do the PCs know that any given PC is close to dying, if all they can see as some random assortment of minor wounds? To give a concrete example. A PC has 30 hp. Scenario 1: s/he takes four...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 09:50 AM
    This is all just assertion. Even the bit about not being able to control when you urinate.
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 08:11 AM
    In objectives, for instance, it's quite similar. 13A & 5e are both compromise takes on D&D, harkening back to the classic game; both intent on enabling TotM by default, both trying to balance classes with different resource mixes, and both deflating bonuses... The GSL. 4e can't be cloned. 3e & 4e were both pretty explicit that players could describe their characters' gear as they like...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:56 AM
    Not if it's just one of many things a character can acquire. It was also HD, attack & save matrices, and learning another crappy weapon every 5th level, back in the day. Kits (backgrounds) & schools since 2e, skills & feats since 3e, class features since 4e... Exclusive, yes, until you get into multiclassing to circumvent it.
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:46 AM
    Yup Well, I wasn't one who thought 13A did any scratching of my 4e itches. I honestly think it is much closer in nature to 5e than to 4e. Sure would be nice if we could get it! What 'legal mess' would that be? There's no legal mess, WotC owns 4e just as free and clear as they own 1e and 2e (neither of which BTW is covered by the OGL). They can reprint, issue PDFs, create new...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:29 AM
    Yeah, well, I guess I could write a game where you started out as a Mythic Figure. That certainly isn't unheard of, in effect most supers games work like that. I, for whatever reason, chose to model my game on a progression from distinctly mortal hero to myth. So I think I did have to begin with at least a solid notion of how heroic tier would function. It seems to be inevitable that play starts...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:25 AM
    The "lots of..." I keep hearing in these discussions. I see no indications of PF2 being that game in any sense... certainly 13A was closer, and it wasn't close, at all. You'd be in good company, but little if it. D&D is just the easiest game to pull a groupbtigether around. Want to play something better, there's no shortage of games, the problem is finding a few other former-D&Ders...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 07:02 AM
    The context is 4e, in which Hidden and Invisible have precise, clear meanings. Since that's the context, you have been unequivocally proven wrong. No amount if ranting, dictionary definitions, or attempts to manufacture ambiguity are going to change that. But, only when the tangent drifted into that context. In 5e, you could have this whole argument in natural language, and, in the...
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  • Tony Vargas's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:44 AM
    As I've said, I'm suspicious of appeals to popularity in any form. On top of that, consider what it meant to be a 4e fan. It meant you gave the new ed a fair chance, even when negative reviews cane out, even as the edition war heated up, and misinformation became common wisdom. They gave it enough if a chance to come to understand and appreciate a very different game. 4e fans may be...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:34 AM
    Especially since your title is Heros of Myth and Legend. You doubly need to assure the awesome is explicitly enabled and encouraged. If your title was Adventurers Guild not so much or Lost Treasure finders not so much.
    35 replies | 816 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:16 AM
    I didn't find 5e to be disgusting or unplayable or anything like that. It WORKS, within a certain set of parameters that includes doing more work as a DM than I really care for. It is also prone to a lot of DM foibles I suspect, though the one DM that ran it for us is not going to fall into too many bad habits. Anyway, it has some good design points too, just they would excite me if they were in...
    288 replies | 8335 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:10 AM
    Yeah, actually I agree with you that a game SHOULD hopefully accommodate such play, letting you do things with your (hopefully) higher non-primary stats that result in an equally good but different character. And I certainly identify with the "I've played every possible sane AD&D character build, now I'm going to start on the downright weirdo crazy ones." I mean, I DID start playing a good while...
    288 replies | 8335 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 06:00 AM
    Yeah, I probably do need to do a pretty big think on my 'mythic' tier practices. I could see some of these working for Intimidation too. "I'm so bad assed I chased death away!" and "Nobody DARES to deny me anything!" etc.
    35 replies | 816 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 04:20 AM
    Why not? An AD&D monk can control when s/he goes into a cataleptic trance that feigns death, ro when s/he recovers lost hit points by way of self-healing. A 3E or 5e barbarian can control when s/he gets really angry. Why can't a 5e fighter control when s/he gets his/her second wind? I think there is some tension here. You don't seem to regard "moderately unrealistic" hit points as magic,...
    407 replies | 8420 view(s)
    2 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 03:59 AM
    Or JRRT, who is about as sentimental as Disney. I think one solution to this is one that Gygax at least gestures towards in his DMG: narrate it one way (Disney-esque) for PCs, but otherwise for monsters and NPCs who won't be coming back. You probably won't be surprised that I regard 4e as the most coherent presentation of hp-as-sentimentality-towards-the-heroes: that's why they can be...
    407 replies | 8420 view(s)
    2 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 03:28 AM
    If someone suggested that it was outrageous for a wizard to shoot a bow, and there was a response of "cast Magic Missile", I don't think that would create much controversy. Similarly, using DEX/Stealth is how a non-caster achieves the functionality of an Invisibility spell. My initial reply to you was mostly intended as humour; what's surprised me is that has generated all this contoversy. ...
    194 replies | 6299 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 02:25 AM
    I think that really is a big takeaway from this discussion taking a standard action is competing with at-wills... so aid other, aid defense, aid attack and the like have to be on a fairly similar scale because of it.
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 15th July, 2018, 02:18 AM
    The distraction of a Mark is a type of distraction and depriving enemies of opportunity actions is another 4e is very broad in this regards...
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:29 PM
    Basically help someone who is focus fired on that way.
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:16 PM
    Aid defense should affect defense against all enemies if you still wanted it. I think they forgot from the ground up that the everyman abilities would effectively compete in the action economy with at-wills.
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:10 PM
    Yeah, I think I'm starting to forget a few of those tweaks, its hard to remember them all unless you play constantly. I would just give the fighter a nice power, and/or practice, to boost up 'distract'. In HoML the basic fighter stuff often reads like "I'm just right up in your grill, you can't ignore me." (which I guess is what 4e was mostly going for as well).
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:07 PM
    I think the answer is, if you have high CON you are good at CON-based stuff, which is going to, narratively, be stuff which requires a lot of endurance, strong health, or something similar. You would probably use the Survival skill a lot, picking solutions to problems which engage that skill whenever possible. You could also pick up Survival keyed Practices which allow you to recontextualize...
    60 replies | 2595 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 07:01 PM
    Yeah, I see what you mean, but Nature CAN cover those without any kind of stretch. I mean, Dungeoneering WAS basically 'nature applied to underground areas', and then usually the extension was made something like "well, underground areas are often constructed, so it also covers underground construction" and then extrapolated to "all construction" since nothing better was available for that. ...
    60 replies | 2595 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 06:47 PM
    Give a fighter something to boost it up was my thought. True about the obsolescence of Aid Defense but they already made it automatic no roll with errata.
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
    0 XP
  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 06:32 PM
    A fighter wouldn't probably use this option, but a wizard might, or a cleric, etc. It might especially be interesting in cases where there are narrative reasons to want to divert an opponent from making an attack on your ally. I would note that it effectively obsoletes the 'defensive aid another' option, at least in many cases. TBH I think that was a worthless non-option anyway (trade your turn...
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 05:17 PM
    If we start enumerating stunts for high end abilities (strength over X lets you do things like these) we might to let those mythic stuff happen.... but are you going to enumerate long distance teleporting that way?
    35 replies | 816 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 05:09 PM
    Heroes Shout, Hurl into Space, Wrestling with Death.... Quasi-Instant Social connections, Sequestering/Hiding an item, Preventing death "after they die" . I think we have a need for permission to achieve mythic extremes. This needs communicated a Mage gets it easily almost by default.
    35 replies | 816 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 14th July, 2018, 04:38 PM
    Remember a fighter can throw an improvised rock and mark an enemy while delivering damage. If we want that to be valuable for them... it will take more. (d4 psychic damage +?) Or perhaps it can cause the enemy to grant combat advantage to adjacent creatures
    32 replies | 1191 view(s)
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Friday, 22nd June, 2018

  • 01:12 PM - pemerton mentioned Garthanos in post Pre-3e mechanics vs d20 system mechanics
    I'm with Garthanos - the biggest change is not the way of generating probabilities and comparing them to target numbers! Uniformity has an obvious simplicity to it, and saves having to muck about with lots of dice. But there are issues with making everything have the same granularity. I've been playing a bit of Classic Traveller lately - it uses mostly uniform rolls (2d6, occasionally 3d6) but the modifier can be different depending on the task. It's superficially uniform, but the varying mods modify the granularity of resolution.

Tuesday, 5th June, 2018

  • 03:27 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post Revised 4E Wizard Class with Freeform Spellcasting System
    ...zing to you at character generation that you will significantly pay for that limitation every other game day. Or else not get a -1 for it. That tends to put a halt to that kind of abuse. Champions mentions that all the time - if a limitation isn't a limitation, you don't get points for it. Sure but that feels potentially heavy handed, in several ways. I like the Fate method as it doesn't require the Game Master decide ahead of time the likelihood of the disadvantage entering play nor require it be a given frequency,ie it happens when it happens in keeping with story. And you pick the limits based on story instead of the potential value you might gain too. Yeah, I gotta say, I'm NOT a fan of the stick! Anyway, even if the GM THINKS he's going to punish you 'every other game day' the player (and trust me I know every trick in the book :devil:) doesn't have to take that lying down. Now it becomes a 'playing the GM' situation, and it just goes down hill from there really. Garthanos has it right, the proper solution is the carrot. If I say to you "hey, this disadvantage will do fun stuff for you!" then that's cool! I mean The Wizard might well have 'lost his staff' a few times if it meant he got some great break in his favor. I've been thinking about this in terms of my own game. I have a concept called 'Limitations', which are literally 'anti-boons'. They exist, in a mechanical sense, but there's really never been any conceptual structure to drive how they might be used in the game. That is, you could always 'accept a setback' and gain 'Inspiration' as a payback for it, but I never really thought much about the Limitations being viewed as a character RESOURCE. Maybe I shouldn't even call them a separate thing from boons, because maybe with the right reward structure they actually ARE boons! ;)

Saturday, 28th April, 2018

  • 12:02 AM - Tony Vargas mentioned Garthanos in post Warlording: The Subclass Edition. Because there wasn't enough of these floating around.
    ... already pushing up against the wall in terms of handing out bonuses from things like bless or paladin auras, so I am loathe to make anything else that can potentially stack with them.Meh, it only matters if you have everything that might give out a bonus, all in the same party. More likely you'll only have 1 or 2 from the 'support' list of Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin or Warlord. Likewise some mechanics don't exist anymore, bloodied and the various riders that were attached to some weapon types for example. Bloodied doesn't exist as a keyword, because natural language, but "1/2 maximum hps" inevitably still exists. Again, just a little wordier. Not sure what riders you're talking about. 5e actually /added/ damage types to weapons, you might be able to do something with that. Or do you just mean weapon groups like 'light blade' or 'spear?' Again, they're still there, just not as jargon. Really should find Wrecan's excellent analysis of the Warlord from the WotC boards... Garthanos: don't you have that saved somewhere? Now, for this to qualify as a proper Warlord, it has to be able to do Warlordy things from level 1 apparently. Seeing as how I think the Warlord belongs as a Fighter Subclass, this creates a conundrum, because the Fighter Subclasses come online at level 3.Not the only conundrum. The Fighter in 5e is not much like either the Fighter nor Warlord in 4e. It's more like the Slayer sub-class of Fighter in Essentials, a 'Striker' (traditional 'Tank') that's tough and all about DPR - two thing the Warlord was not much about ('cept the Bravura, a bit). However, there is a hack for getting around that: Fighting Style. Yep, Mearls briefly speculated he might do that sometime... Fighting Styles: Tactician: Your allies within 30' of you have advantage on attack rolls against any target you attack until the beginning of your next turn. Inspirational: Whenever you hit a creature with an attack, choose one ally within 60' who can see or...

Tuesday, 24th April, 2018

  • 05:50 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post List of Potential New Martial Practices
    Can't battleminds & wardens come up with a whole lotta surges, too? True, though Wardens could fall somewhat under the 'fighter' rubric (or not depending on your flavoring of them). Battleminds are just weird... Just to comment on what Garthanos said, yes, high surge characters like fighters GENERALLY use a lot of them in combat, BUT they don't HAVE to necessarily. Also, what about non-combat situations? This is a problem too, all of a sudden things shift around a whole bunch unless you are careful to keep a fixed mix of encounter types.

Thursday, 25th January, 2018

  • 03:14 AM - pemerton mentioned Garthanos in post Unearthed Wrecana - Expanding Cantrips with Stunts
    Garthanos - interesting post! You're going to start putting me in the "reactionary" basket, but let me explain why I'm not sure about the need for tricks! It seems to me that issues like creating puffs of smoke, or creating water, or purifying food, are going to come mostly in two sorts of contexts. One is a low-stakes context, where it's just colour. In that case, I don't think I need a mechanic beyond skills + "say 'yes'" to support it. (Eg the cleric speaks a prayer of purification over the dirty plate - now it gleams!) The other is a skill challenge context, in which case - for the system to work - I need a skill check to be made. (I know rituals and daily powers, per the DMG and DMG2, can create an exception to this, but they are rationed abilities and so, at least in my experience, don't dominate the skill challenge resolution procedure.) And once a check is being made, the same consideration as in low-stakes context applies: whether or not the character can create the smoke pu...

Friday, 12th January, 2018

  • 03:01 PM - darkbard mentioned Garthanos in post Fourward Path
    To return to your OP, Garthanos, one thing that I really wish further development of 4E would have tackled at some point is a subsystem of PC wealth and/or status. As recently discussed in a thread in the General RPG Discussion forum regarding the worth of an XP, gold, and wealth in general, serves no function in 4E. The only game mechanic tied to character wealth is magic item progression, and, essentially, this is divorced from the general economy. The PC's gps buy her that magic sword, but that sword has no mechanic in the gameworld beyond its combat utility, and if the PC used that gold to instead buy an estate or a ruby tiara, there is no mechanic for this at all. Especially with the advent of Fixed Enhancement Bonuses essentially obviating the need for wealth --> magic item progression, I would have like to have seen a subsystem that explores a staple "carrot" of the adventuring genre! But as the game stands now, outside of an array of powerful combat items (by and large), the 30th level character is little ...

Thursday, 11th January, 2018

  • 09:50 PM - Manbearcat mentioned Garthanos in post Fourward Path
    Garthanos To all those with empathy for the 4e design paradigm. How do you think 4e could have or should have been completed AND how might it have progressed forward into a 5e that was loyal to that design we love. I don't think that 4e was ever going to be given a shot to progress forward into 5e. I think the point of 5e (from the outset) was to put an end to D&D tribalism by burning (the heretical) 4e at the stake as an offering of peace...and the playtest was an effort to solicit instruction (by those hell bent on that outcome) on how best to perpetuate that end while maintaining a pretense of objectivity. Brilliantly conceived and brilliantly executed. As far as how I would have liked to have seen 4e evolve? I would like to have seen a 4e evolution along the lines of Blades in the Dark: - Sub in Progress Clocks (or opposing Clocks when applicable) for Skill Challenges. Scaled success and failure depending on evaluating codified circumstances of each action. Once a PC ...

Saturday, 6th January, 2018

  • 07:28 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post Fourward Path
    I think in the 4e framework, at least as it currently exists, this is handled in two different ways: out of combat, by way of "fail forward" narration in skill challenges; in combat, by power design (including out of turn actions with various sorts of triggers). Changing combat to be more like skill challenges would be a big change. At that point, what is 4e offering that can't be found in a system like Cortex+ Heroic, or HeroQuest revised? Yeah, I have gone a bit of the way to what Garthanos is talking about, which is to say an action always changes the situation, even in combat. This IS currently a difference between combat and non-combat situations, even in HoML to some extent. It still has a D&D lineage and recognizably 4e-derived combat, so it IS possible to stand around and whiff a whole bunch. Its just that critical failures usually do cause things to happen, and there's morale 'damage', which means you are unlikely to end up with one enemy elite soldier standing his ground for 5 rounds at the end of a fight (which is quite possible in 4e, though obviously the GM can fix that).

Wednesday, 6th December, 2017

  • 09:03 PM - darkbard mentioned Garthanos in post Do we need Superior Weapons? What about a Superior Expertise to replace it.
    ...game (hence, the "taxes" and the movement away from MM1 design to that of later books like the Monster Vault, etc.) and adding on to character combat efficacy by (a) hitting more often and (b) inflicting more damage with each hit, combat, one of the main features of 4E, moved from being a feature to a bug, via combat slog (combats lasting many more rounds than the 4 or so intended by the design team, lots of swings and misses on both sides, so none of those neat effects powers and feats and items carry go off, etc.). Personally, I find it much more fun when combats are more "swingy," as enacted by this design philosophy in the later stages of the game, they are more exciting and the characters feel more heroic. If the blandness of such feats is bothersome, simply give your characters two bonus feats (an Expertise Feat, early in the game, and Improved Defenses, later in Heroic or at the onset of Paragon tier) to fix the math and let them choose other, more flavorful feats. If, Garthanos, spending a feat on Superior Weapon training bothers you, allow a character to use a Background to grab a superior weapon, as well as military, etc., with Gritty Sergeant or Noble Bred for War. I don't think that would out of line with the benefit of Auspicious Birth.

Friday, 9th June, 2017

  • 05:13 PM - Greg K mentioned Garthanos in post How would your write the characters from Archer: Fugitive from the Empire in your favorite edition (Youtube link provided)
    This is the kind of challenge I have been known to take up in detail but for characters I am invested in... AND know! this is out there in the I don't know those realm, LOL With the huge popularity of "Game of Thrones" it made me wonder but I get the impression it has a "low magic feel" that is not quite D&D like Garthanos, Did you get a chance to watch the Youtube link?. It is about two hours long. I had actually planned to tag you in my original post. 4e is the version that I am least knowledgeable and you did a wonderful job on the characters from Ladyhawke and Heavy Metal. I don't think Toran or Slant would be difficult. To the best of my knowledge, Toran would be a Ranger (archery) and Slant would be a Rogue (which build I am not certain). Estra? I do not know what she would be in 4e.

Wednesday, 17th May, 2017

  • 03:01 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post Change the Situation (Skill Challenges)!
    Sure sort of like using a take 20 plus a bonus.. except I am not sure we always know where the top is. If Manbear is DMing, in this case a heroic manifestation of "breaching ram" could enable breaching on scale a paragon grade wall and at paragon an epic wall. So far as a paragon level MP it didnt need a top end... ;), just like pass wall must be a coincidence It only HAS to be consistent (well, maybe not even then if you want a sort of surreal game) across a single campaign. SO I don't actually care if Manbearcat has level 7 PCs leaping across 200' chasms and Garthanos has it 20' chasms. The rules themselves are perfectly happy to produce either result. In effect its nothing but reflavoring. I'm not sure I understand your reference to Passwall here, sorry. I do definitely think that both Passwall and Breaching Ram should be pretty equivalent. In my version of things I'd simply have them both allow breaking through the wall without needing a check (IE auto-success on that check in the SC). Now, a POWER IMHO generally has a check associated with it, but it produces a specific known effect at a generally high level of effect. A page 42 improvisation has a check, but it produces a limited effect, at best. Sometimes that effect may be just what you need, so you go with it. Skills simply add proficiency bonus to uses of a page 42 type action, or they may have associated skill powers. Feats, well, they are equivalent to boons in my system, but they can provide a power, which is just like any other power, or they might grant a ritual/practice type effec...

Tuesday, 16th May, 2017

  • 10:53 PM - Manbearcat mentioned Garthanos in post Change the Situation (Skill Challenges)!
    Garthanos and AbdulAlhazred , I think the easiest iteration of something like an Unstoppable Juggernaut Martial Practice would be to handle it just like Rituals in Skill Challenges. So he has this MP that lets him smash through or shove down solid obstacles. In the above SC, the mechanical advantage the Fighter would have would be that they don't have to roll dice. Just like a Ritual Caster would pay their gold and get an auto-success, the MP Fighter would pay his Surge and earn his auto-success. Instead of the above result, you'd have: 1) 2 successes and 1 failure (rather than the inverse). 2) The entire party has egress from the smoke-choked hallway, no dangerous and combat that can snowball adversely against their goal, and now they're in a familiar room near the grand foyer. Now we would have to introduce a new obstacle so the fiction would change in some manner. I would probably go with something like: The tinder of the tapestries and large area rugs that span the ...

Sunday, 14th May, 2017

  • 07:24 PM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post Wounds: 4e Style - Calling for house rules
    I haven't felt the need to implement, but I thought prettymuch the moment I saw the Disease Track 'oh, you could use this for lingering wounds.' One genre trope I do really like that D&D hasn't ever tried to do AFAIK, is the determined hero going back into battle against at the risk of 're-opening his wounds.' That'd be something that could be added onto the Disease Track fairly easily - on a trigger, make an additional Endurance check to avoid worsening your condition (no chance of improvement, of course). Triggers could be spending an action point or using a Daily attack power - anything that implies exceptional effort. A debilitating wound could impose a condition, like Weakened, Dazed, or Slowed, and each turn you could choose to make an Endurance check - on a Hard success, you ignore the condition until the start of your next turn, but on a Moderate failure your wound worsens on the Wound Track. Right. My current implementation has some things like this. Its like Garthanos' suggestion, a disease track implementation. I originally considered that 'wounds could only get better', but that may not be an absolute, you could MAKE them worse, as you suggest. However, I would make this a 'plot device'. So, the player simply chooses to make his wound worse, spends his inspiration (or a surge or whatever you want to do) and trades a single step increase in wound severity for advantage or some similar thing. I wouldn't have dice be involved in this decision at all. I would recommend 4 wound levels. The first level, minor is simply a wound, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, or the effect is VERY limited at least. Its main purpose is to allow for a worsening condition. The second level, serious, has a basic penalty associated with it such as being slowed, losing a surge, or maybe something more wound-specific like -2 on ranged attacks, or whatever. The third level would be major, and this is fully debilitating. You can do things, but you have the cumulative eff...

Sunday, 30th April, 2017

  • 03:25 AM - Igwilly mentioned Garthanos in post Will the real martial artist please stand up...
    @AbdulAlhazred not so much. They are connected by the way they’re improved, but thematically they are different: and power sources are all about themes. Psionics: realm of the mind. Martial: Badass Normal and even Charles Atlas, depending on how you do it; but nothing decided supernatural – such as creating fire in your hands. Qi: decidedly Supernatural Martial Arts, in simple terms. Qi has more freedom than Martial. You can say they’re connected, and they are, but not so same-y as you make it sound. @Garthanos Oh sure, we can change some ideas about that. I just don’t know if it’s here or in PM :)

Monday, 24th April, 2017

  • 06:19 AM - Manbearcat mentioned Garthanos in post Martial Practices inferior to Rituals????
    Garthanos and AbdulAlhazred , I think the best way Martial Practices could be integrated into orthodox 4e's overall system machinery is by: 1) Differentiating it from Rituals in how PCs activate them (good job there guys. Healing Surges versus the level-1 Coin pool PCs are expected to have). 2) Make Rituals and Martial Practices all do the same sort of stuff. You're talking: a) Allows a PC to reframe a potential situation from one scene to another. A Wizard Teleports a group and we transition scenes/locales "from here to there" while a Ranger leads them safely on a Perilous Journey and does the same thing. A Druid sends an offscreen missive via an animal friend. A Fighter sends an offscreen missive via freaking tireless legs, implacable will/stamina...or maybe via a Follower. b) Invoke a Skill Challenge. Adjure performs an exorcism. Weight of Death's Stare allows the Fighter to project her fortitude into the Mental Realm (or wherever) of the host and attempt to cast the d...

Sunday, 16th April, 2017

  • 05:11 PM - Tony Vargas mentioned Garthanos in post Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?
    Just like all those scholarly wizards, druids, and such. What's your point? Why are people giving such :):):):) about bards when wizards are in this game? Or is this just yet another of the double-standards in favor of wizards? Garthanos had a theory that the caster|fighter double-standard that pervades D&D was a 'revenge of the nerds' power-fantasy. D&D is a nerd game, nerds and jocks didn't exactly get along in high school, intellectual casters are the stand-in for the nerds, big dumb fighters & barbarians for the jocks. Since the nerds made the game, the nerd-identification classes are Tier 1, while the Jock-identified classes are Tier 5. I suppose we could go into more detail mapping D&D classes to high school cliques, and Bards would be, IDK, band geeks.

Saturday, 1st April, 2017

  • 11:28 PM - darkbard mentioned Garthanos in post Well formatted 4e Wealth By Level
    Yes this one was also from Wrecan but I getting it nicely formatted in the Forum so it cannot be a Weekly Wrecana So I am posting a link http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay/DungeonsAndDragons/WealthByLevel/ Hey, Garthanos, do you want to edit this and tag it as 4E specific under the prefix dropdown menu?

Thursday, 30th March, 2017

  • 10:22 PM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post Weekly Wrecana : The Three Pilasters of D&D 4 parts
    I have to say, I don't think a huge amount of this applies in any specific way to how I run 4e (or think about game design). I think that the ELEMENTS are interesting, there are interludes, travel and information dispensing are all subjects that can be interesting and need to be touched on in some form by RPGs. On the whole I think Wrecan's approach displays a sort of "circa 2008" approach to 4e (obviously this was written sometime around 2012 I'm assuming). Notably there's no discussion here about a more 4e story centered approach to these kinds of non-adventuring or 'para-adventuring' elements of the game. He seems to pretty much assume a kind of AD&D-esque paradigm of world existing independently of adventurers, although he does now-and-then touch slightly on a more story-centered view. Overall it feels a bit more old-fashioned than where I am now in my own thinking. It is interesting that you fished this particular set of posts up at this time Garthanos. I had just the other day written up a section of my own game/notes on Challenges and Interludes, which provides for an approach to many of these things. So, in my own play at this time, there are only 2 states of game play, Challenge, or Interlude (I admit, I use the term 'interlude' very broadly, Wrecan parses this a lot more finely). During challenges dice are employed in the adjudication of risk incurred as a result of conflict, which the challenge resolves (or maybe fails to resolve, or partly resolves, etc). Everything else works dicelessly. You don't roll dice to see if you were able to make 12cp today begging, or if you managed to smith a fine sword or a merely ordinary one for resale. These non-conflict situations simply get resolved as the GM and players wish, taking into account character's various attributes and resources. So, how to handle some of the situations Wrecan touched on? Why handle them at all? That is to say, suppose a group of players decide their characters...

Wednesday, 29th March, 2017

  • 03:33 AM - AbdulAlhazred mentioned Garthanos in post D&D 4E Homebrew Rules & Changes - Looking for feedback
    Yeah, it isn't really *that* hard. Just most people who don't realize there's more restrict themselves to Ranger for poaching Twin Strike/Disruptive Strike+a variety of reasonably strong choices. Right, I was just mostly saying to Garthanos that even the less engaged players can, and do, easily optimize their characters. Of course plenty of them also don't, but you surely didn't need to be paying much attention. There's little doubt that MCing is in no way too obscure for most. I think ALL of my players figured out it was a good deal eventually, though only a few really took the time to find good power swaps. Still, even mathematical illiterates understand that getting a d6 damage die added to one attack every fight, plus a good skill, is a pretty decent return on one feat.

Sunday, 26th March, 2017

  • 09:51 PM - Animakuro mentioned Garthanos in post D&D 4E Homebrew Rules & Changes - Looking for feedback
    @darkbard; I wasn't aware something already existed for injuries, I'll be sure to look that up. Still, I'm fairly proud of the rules I've created and would like to try them out in action, so I'll likely give both a shot before deciding which it is I prefer. EDIT: Just looked it up now and whilst I still think I prefer the delivery of injuries I created in my system, I'll more than likely borrow many of the actual injury effects from that article. @Garthanos; I've never actually seen Multi-Classing play yet - primarily because my players have always said its very restrictive and carries a lot of investment in feats for little reward - so I'll admit I'm not 100% familar with what is actually optimal for multi-classing, but have felt that it is rather sub-optimal as a whole.


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Tuesday, 17th July, 2018

  • 03:12 AM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    One of the 4e descendant threads has something very akin to that... on 4enclave.org however my experience has been it's way way too easy to yank the game into being all about the specialist mayaps the problem is they become a specialist in so many things as they level instead of staying a narrow solution. I picture the specialist as being darn-near unplayable, like a 3e NPC class. Though, the mostly-daily is pedantic, I think it would work better as an all-at-will like the Stalwart. Maybe Wild-something for the mostly-daily type...? The point, though, is intentional imbalance favoring the 'Hero.'

Monday, 16th July, 2018

  • 08:09 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    Pretty sure it was clear that he was echoing things he knew were nonsense... but which seem to be "common understanding". I was trying to hold up a darkly sarcastic mirror to the (miss)use of those terms, yes.

Sunday, 15th July, 2018

  • 04:07 PM - Marshall quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    I also put insight on the skill list of the class with insightful presence on its potential feature list because you know. However I really do not know how to fix the issue in a broad sort of way. Even if I made a 4e descendant system of my own. Honestly?!? Get rid of the Fighter as an archetype. "Fighter" is a first level title. Its little better than Grunt, Peon, Thug or Girl with Sword. Eventually the Fighter grows up and actually makes something of herself. THAT is the class the character belongs to.
  • 07:29 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    Especially since your title is Heros of Myth and Legend. You doubly need to assure the awesome is explicitly enabled and encouraged. If your title was Adventurers Guild not so much or Lost Treasure finders not so much. Yeah, well, I guess I could write a game where you started out as a Mythic Figure. That certainly isn't unheard of, in effect most supers games work like that. I, for whatever reason, chose to model my game on a progression from distinctly mortal hero to myth. So I think I did have to begin with at least a solid notion of how heroic tier would function. It seems to be inevitable that play starts there and so its conceptions get solidified first before higher tiers. Maybe it would be better if I designed Mythic Tier first, I mean really, maybe it would! :)
  • 06:00 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    Heroes Shout, Hurl into Space, Wrestling with Death.... Quasi-Instant Social connections, Sequestering/Hiding an item, Preventing death "after they die" . I think we have a need for permission to achieve mythic extremes. This needs communicated a Mage gets it easily almost by default. Yeah, I probably do need to do a pretty big think on my 'mythic' tier practices. I could see some of these working for Intimidation too. "I'm so bad assed I chased death away!" and "Nobody DARES to deny me anything!" etc.

Saturday, 14th July, 2018

  • 07:10 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Attercop Attercop from Taunting to - Come and Get it.
    Give a fighter something to boost it up was my thought. True about the obsolescence of Aid Defense but they already made it automatic no roll with errata. Yeah, I think I'm starting to forget a few of those tweaks, its hard to remember them all unless you play constantly. I would just give the fighter a nice power, and/or practice, to boost up 'distract'. In HoML the basic fighter stuff often reads like "I'm just right up in your grill, you can't ignore me." (which I guess is what 4e was mostly going for as well).
  • 07:07 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Towards a Story Now 4e
    I think you misunderstood what I meant maybe or maybe not. it might mean you want to take the long haul if you have high CON... but does that mean you can always choose to do so? It means you do athletics better when you can repeat and retry and take a longer time to finish ... generally where failures are allowed. Something allowing few or no repeats requires the precision. Something time dependent needs bursts of performance. I actually thought of advantage working that way... ie when you are at a disadvantage you are forced to use a less favored method. I think the answer is, if you have high CON you are good at CON-based stuff, which is going to, narratively, be stuff which requires a lot of endurance, strong health, or something similar. You would probably use the Survival skill a lot, picking solutions to problems which engage that skill whenever possible. You could also pick up Survival keyed Practices which allow you to recontextualize other narratives as leveraging...
  • 06:32 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Attercop Attercop from Taunting to - Come and Get it.
    Remember a fighter can throw an improvised rock and mark an enemy while delivering damage. If we want that to be valuable for them... it will take more. (d4 psychic damage +?) Or perhaps it can cause the enemy to grant combat advantage to adjacent creatures A fighter wouldn't probably use this option, but a wizard might, or a cleric, etc. It might especially be interesting in cases where there are narrative reasons to want to divert an opponent from making an attack on your ally. I would note that it effectively obsoletes the 'defensive aid another' option, at least in many cases. TBH I think that was a worthless non-option anyway (trade your turn for a mere possibility that you grant an ally a +2 to all defenses, not really that great). Here you're trading your turn for a 100% chance of effectively granting all your allies a +2 to all defenses vs this one opponent. Most of the time this will get you what you want.
  • 03:15 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Attercop Attercop from Taunting to - Come and Get it.
    I think this isnt a bad analysis for 4e - but so far the taunts on here miss out on a lot. However the everyman abilities lack something that is implied in Bilbos taunt and it was affecting multiple opponents in a way to help allies escape (marking is certainly power oriented version) NOTE technically if someone can affect multiple enemies with intimidation telling them to attack you instead because you are the dangerous one a bluff seems entirely appropriate to do something similar and either might do something like a basic distraction effect which could allow allies to escape. I missposted the thought in another thread and @darkbard brought up a power to look at. How about a general action that anyone can use: distract - standard action, you may mark any opponent within 10 squares of you. The name here is just generic, you can color this as a taunt or whatever you want. It gets the job done and seems hardly likely to cause any issues in play. Its a weak move, but now and then it would ...
  • 03:09 PM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    I do at least have SOME based on athletics Yeah, I have to work on that. The problem I have is that these are supposed to be "things you can use in a skill challenge to explain why you used ability score or skill X to solve a problem instead of skill Y." where Y would be the obvious choice. So, I have had a hard time finding reasons why Athletics is useful INSTEAD OF something else, but I'm sure I can come up with some. The problem with the way 4e uses practices is it is just a list of 'tricks' you can pull with your skills, which is OK, except I didn't NEED that, because of course you can pull trick X, Y, or Z with your skill, you're a BAD ASS!

Friday, 13th July, 2018

  • 05:47 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post OSR/older D&D and XP from gold - is there a "proper" alternative?
    I think that "power gaming" is a term that is generally used to describe (often, not always, pejoratively) an approach to play that the user of the term typically (not always) doesn't him-/herself adopt. I realise this is not your usage, but I personally just don't think it's worthwhile to try and rehabilitate the term. My usage is also one I blythely self-identify as. Yeah, I know some systems pretty well and try to get the most out of them - that's 'powergaming' in my book. Mostly this is because I personally don't find it a very useful term for analysis (but it's use can be interesting anthropological data, if one is trying to understand where another poster is coming from). The terminology for discussing RPGs on the internet is mostly pretty useless, yes, and you're right that what use there is comes mainly in understanding the person using it, more than what they're trying to say with it. I am thinking somehow "gaming the system" is a bit like playing the game RAW instead of RAI...
  • 03:21 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    I suppose if we can make sure with Practices and the like that everyone gets as much awesome as the arcanist. Note I actually do not have that many practices based on athletics. Here's my total list, which contains both practices and rituals in your parlance. List of Practices Level Check Type Keywords Name 1 Engineering Procedure Engineering, Martial Alarm 1 Nature Ritual Life Animal Messenger 5 Arcana Ritual Arcana, Shadow Arcane Watcher 7 Leadership Procedure Marshal Battle Speech 11 Arcana Ritual Spirit Blood Binding ...
  • 03:04 AM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post A review of my Favorite D&D 7/3/2018
    Ironically I actually think they captured ahem the essence of 4e and its core elements better than the threads here. Go ahead and post the link in the Essence thread, then. What's the worst that could happen?

Thursday, 12th July, 2018

  • 03:45 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    I also put insight on the skill list of the class with insightful presence on its potential feature list because you know. However I really do not know how to fix the issue in a broad sort of way. Even if I made a 4e descendant system of my own. What's hard to fix? Just give everyone 4 skills....
  • 03:38 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    Early on in D&D I was rather annoyed by the Brute Strength was all that mattered for "hitting" things with your sword ;) - my dad was in the martial arts and I knew better. At the point of 4e coming along we have not only rogues who feel like they fight with precision and grace but others emphasizing mental attributes like avengers whose physical attacks are driven by perception, insight and divine will and Bards whose swordplay is flamboyant trickery and spirit which by using a single attribute (maintain simplicity for game purposes) yet DEFINE a fighting style with the attribute used. To me Melee training is just more of that... ie enabling varioius character types to continue operating within their style, even within a surprise circumstance or even not so surprise when a warlords plan comes together. Now actually it may be that giving every class things which you can use as a Basic attack might be a better solution than the feat... I definitely still approve of the feat in its original...

Wednesday, 11th July, 2018

  • 06:33 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post A review of my Favorite D&D 7/3/2018
    In this case they have humor and almost as much snark as us LOL We listened to the first hour last night - damn, it's long - it was mildly amusing (we're reviewing this game that came out last month - 10 years ago), it's odd to hear people not get tons of stuff wrong when talking about 4e, though they mis-spoke more than a few times and carefully disected the original language of Comander's Strike as an example of how 4e used keywords ("templating") to make powers clearer, when it was a prime example of /not using that template correctly/ and the errata'd version was much clearer. (Oh, and they made the same "Da Math" mistake as everyone... ...OK, as long as they don't go on to say "Epic is too easy.")
  • 06:30 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    wrong thread...
  • 04:54 AM - AbdulAlhazred quoted Garthanos in post Disarm Let Us Count the Ways.
    I almost suggested making the swap out an exertion (healing surge/vitality point) but that seems too costly... so maybe the skill check might indeed be good HS is a bit steep, yes.
  • 12:11 AM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    While at minimum the Warlord made something coherent that never was before in D&D (did you watch that review I pointed out) arguably in AD&D 2, at least in flavor and concept the 4e Fighter and Warlord were under one banner even if there wasnt much backing it. Not much for podcasts, prefer reading. ;P But, yes the leadership (& tactical &c) part(s) went to the Warlord in 4e, while the fighter was further narrowed to just the more sort of knightly/warrior/champion defender-of-the-weak & related concepts, and the Ranger got the woodsy/spelunking/archery/TWF stuff. I've said many times that you could roll everything the Fighter & Thief (latter, Rogue) ever got in every edtion together and not have an OP class (by 3.5 or 5e standards, anyway, we're talking still solidly Tier 3). You could add the warlord & non-casting ranger to that without breaking into Tier 2.

Tuesday, 10th July, 2018

  • 09:06 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Garthanos in post Melee Training Restored
    I figure the class who is the "guardsman" ought to have perception on his base skill list and have 4 skills like everyone else did and similar things A perennial flaw of the fighter. Somehow, fighters missed the boat on skills, entirely. The early-D&D fighter was a proto-nobleman, a 'barronette' in some versions, a Lord at 9th level, in any case. Traditionally (actual tradition, not D&D perversity), an heroic noble knight or the like would be expected to be accomplished at many arts & graces, knowlegeable about history & the classics, a leader, a traveler, a politician, even a philosopher & scholar to a modest degree, etc... ...and also, in the 'blood will tell' way, /good at everything he turned his hand to/... ...IRL, few would have lived up to those expectations, of course, but it's not supposed to be RL.


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