View Profile: Bedrockgames - Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Tuesday, 23rd October, 2018, 05:20 PM
    I chose Call of Cthulhu because it always delivered a good experience for me at the table (whether I was behind the screen or a player). I think it is a classic for a reason. But my favorite horror setting, without any doubt, is Ravenloft during the 2E era (the 1E modules are amazing, as well of course). For whatever reason, classic horror and hammer inspired adventures just clicked instantly...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Saturday, 20th October, 2018, 06:41 PM
    What does that have to do at all with this conversation? Please don’t project viewpoints into me that I don’t hold. My politics, if you must know them, are to the left and liberal. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything you say.
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Saturday, 20th October, 2018, 06:05 PM
    You keep asserting that. But you haven't said anything to convince me. Again, I think it is a mistake to look at someone from outside their own culture and assume you know how that culture influences their works and how their works reflect their beliefs. You are acting as if you have special access to this outsider or self aware perspective. No one is saying a person's culture doesn't...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Saturday, 20th October, 2018, 04:55 PM
    This is the part I find particularly suspect. Certainly the culture and environment you live in, will influence content. That doesn't mean people can deduce your political views just because there is a vague influence. Just because a GM includes a few elements that harken to real-world philosophies, that in no way gives me an indication of what the GM actually believes about them. The GM could be...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Saturday, 20th October, 2018, 01:15 PM
    Or they could be fully aware of possible political implications and simply not care or regard them as relevant to what they are doing. I mean I could be the most politically minded person in all other aspects of my life, but when I sit down to GM, I may consider it the worst place imaginable to insert my politics. Now you can choose to see political message in my choice of villains, but don't I...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Saturday, 20th October, 2018, 12:23 PM
    But the person in this example is clearly allowing their political views to impact the choice of villain. Another GM might focus more on making an interesting villain regardless of how much that jives with his or her POV. Maybe the villain is the CEO, maybe it is a union leader, or an activist (or someone with zero clear political implications). Also, just because people can read a political...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Friday, 19th October, 2018, 10:45 PM
    Perhaps, but it is also incredibly vague to talk about subconscious influence of politics and culture. I mean, if it is readily apparent sure. But there are definitely games, books and movies where you'd have to strain to conclude anything, and even then, you wouldn't be sure. I think it is pretty speculative is the problem once you get into this territory. And people resent being told by others,...
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  • Bedrockgames's Avatar
    Friday, 19th October, 2018, 07:48 PM
    There is a big difference though between the culture and politics that surround you having an influence, and using heroes and villains as mouthpieces for your political views. So I think when people say politics don't really enter into their GMing of the two, they mean they are not using heroes and villains to promote their partisan views.
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About Bedrockgames

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Sunday, 22nd July, 2018

  • 04:01 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post The roots of 4e exposed?
    Oh, come now, it was a triumph of expostulation...:cool:Despite how heated many of these threads get, I have increasingly found myself drawn to many such threads in General Roleplaying Games. Because a lot of the insight on game design, game theory, and play approaches provided by you, pemerton, Hussar, Maxperson, Lanefan, Manbearcat, Imaro, Bedrockgames, Tony Vargas, among many others unlisted, has been incredibly engaging for me, as it I can apply those insights and approaches to games outside of D&D.

Thursday, 21st June, 2018

  • 08:20 PM - Skyscraper mentioned Bedrockgames in post Death and Storytelling
    Bedrockgames so I understand that you like to have death be a real threat and let the dice decide when it happens (so do I); but this apart, how do you reconcile death with the story that the now-dead PC was linked to, when it happens? Do you simply let the storyline that was linked to that PC exclusively, die with him or her? Tony Vargas you appear to suggest that death is frequent, but so is resurrection, so it's no big deal because PCs are brought back easily; or in the alternative, you use back up PC's. In the case of back-up PC's, how do you reconcile the story that the PC was linked to, with his disappearance from the game? Re: the ease to access of raise dead in D&D: I've done away with that spell, personally; but for the purposes of this discussion, let's disregard the situation where the PC dies but is brought back which is, in essence, equivalent to healing the PC.

Friday, 11th May, 2018

  • 10:42 PM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    I don't think so. A good analogy for this would be if Hussar said, "I don't like vehicles, because they're too big. Cars, trucks, semis, and airplanes are just too much. That's why I ride a motorcycle. That's not a vehicle." Pointing out that a motorcycle IS a vehicle, just a smaller one that he does like is not splitting hairs. It's similarly not splitting hairs to point out the fact that he does worldbuild, even if on a smaller scale. Funny how all your definition jokes keep requiring the change of definitions of known words. I've posted the definition of world building, a few times now, and you've still insisted on the notion that your definition is the only possible one. Does make winning a discussion easier when you think that you can control what words mean. ------- Bedrockgames - what I would like to see is a heck of a lot less world building, both at the table and in publication. Instead of Dragon+ having 3/4 of its material (and Dragon before it wasn't much different) revolve around world building, focus more on practical stuff - things that can actually, directly be used at the table. Give me setting material in a form I can directly use - adventures are great. Setting guides that spend page after page after page detailing Elven Tea Ceremonies, not so much. Given that there are about 20000 pages of setting material for Forgotten Realms, do we actually need any more? Don't give me the history of that town, give me a town with 6 interesting locations fully statted up, with maps, that I can plug and play. Don't give me a Mordenkainens Monster book, full of setting crap that I will never use. Give me less monsters, but, in a form that I can just drop into my game with little or no work. As a DM, my advice is GET TO THE POINT. Quit faffing ab...
  • 05:59 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    But I was asking about that specific passage... Him having done both in the thread means he has made general statements about worldbuilding while you claimed he was only stating preference.Let's retrace our steps a bit for contextualization because this entire line of thinking is becoming absurd, and I have little desire to perpetuate that absurdity. I disagreed with Bedrockgames's assertion and kinda spiteful characterization that Hussar was expressing his opinion "as an absolute" and that "Hussar has the answer for everyone." This runs counter, IME, to how I see Hussar expressing his viewpoints in the context of the wider conversation. You asked what then we were discussing. And in the context of this entire conversation, one portion of that is Hussar's preferences rooted in and based on his general observations about worldbuilding as an enterprise of RPGs. I am talking about the wider context of his conversation in this thread. You then asked for my reading on a specific passage. My reading of this passage is again tied to my understanding of Hussar's argument in this entire thread, and I do think that his post in question that you quoted is led by those preferences. Aldarc, I share a lot of Imaro's sentiments here. I think you and Hussar are trying to have it both ways, on the one hand saying "this is just my opinion and if you object you are reacting ...
  • 03:24 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    ... Hussar clearly knows what is better for his specific game (something that hasn't really been addressed or acknowledged from those against worldbuilding) so that begs the question... what is the conversation supposed to be around if he's asserting this only for himself and his particular game?One would certainly hope that you would know that before you chose to wade into it. There are multiple divergent conversations at play here though. On this point, however, I think that Hussar is clearly discussing his own preferences that he would like expressed in published materials. As to the rest of the conversations? That might be a bit much to summarize. That's interesting but do you have anything to back this disagreement up with, because so far I've seen one style that eschews pre-authored content that has validity around worldbuilding being "bad" for it. And even with that one I would say worldbuilding isn't relevant for it vs. actually being bad.I would say that the argument that Bedrockgames presented was insufficient for explaining the reactions, and I provided another explanation that I believe describes it or that would supplement Bedrock's. Lol... what a way to dismiss the other side of a conversation... Don't address their responses and counterpoints, just declare their perspective as emotionally driven and use a bad analogy (oh the irony) to characterize their responses as both illogical and ill-infomed. See it's this type of declaration that gets conversations emotionally driven.But the bold is where you are wrong, Imaro. Their responses and counterpoints have been addressed repeatedly by me and others, but addressing those points was not my intent here, Imaro, as the goal was explaining the source of the emotional backlash. You were talking about the emotional content of the word "bad" that you felt was laden in the title "Why Worldbuilding is Bad" and Bedrockgames why people were reacting so strongly to the central premise. And given how there is a lot of m...

Thursday, 10th May, 2018

  • 04:52 AM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    But, then Bedrockgames, why not actually make that clear? Something like, "If you run open ended, sandbox style campaigns, then world building becomes more necessary"? Instead of, "Well, world building is good" which is what I generally get replied to me over and over again. And, as far as the generally agreed upon definition goes, I suggest Wikipedia, or TV Tropes. Both have excellent definitions that I've been following all the way along. "All setting is world building" is a definition of world building that is largely distinct to the folks in this thread. No one else uses that definition. Which is why we talk about world building in something like Lord of the Rings or SoFA but not works like Phantom of the Opera. Take Star Wars. If you only watched Ep's IV through VI, there's extremely little world building going on there. Take Chewbacca. All you would know about Chewie is that he is a Wookie. That's about it. You wouldn't know the name of his planet, how old he is, or anything else. ...

Tuesday, 8th May, 2018

  • 06:34 PM - Aldarc mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    This is a bad argument. Do you seriously need him to support the assertion that broad does not equate to meaningless?. Because by any rational definition of those words, they have distinct meanings. I think the onus is on you to prove his definition is meaningless. You didn't. You simply asserted it. Either way, this isn't a logic class. We're speaking in plain language and expressing opinions here. We don't need to construct syllogisms for teacher.His statement "broad does not mean meaningless" is a bad argument when that is not what I said, but I'm so glad that you failed to pick up on that, Bedrockgames. I think the onus is on you to actually read.

Sunday, 29th April, 2018

  • 11:08 PM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Why Worldbuilding is Bad
    But, again, how much do you actually need? There's thirty years of Dragon magazine out there. Just the print stuff, not the 4e version. At about 100 pages per magazine, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 30000 pages of material. Never minding anything else. There's religions with less page count. :D Bedrockgames - you usually start with a monster. Fair enough. Does that mean you start with the given world building text - start with the Monster Manual, go back through Dragon to look at the Ecology of article, delve into Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk to reference how that creature was used there, then dig into D&D branded novels to give it that final touch? Or does it mean that you might use a line or two from the Monster Manual, and then 99% of the material is your own?
  • 06:07 AM - Maxperson mentioned Bedrockgames in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    I'd VERY strongly advice, if you were to take an interest in that particular dialog, to go back and read the parts of the thread Max contributed. I think you'll VERY QUICKLY find that pemerton is fully justified in his approach. I mean, honestly, don't bother, you can take it from me. It would be pretty tedious to do (though sometimes kinda amusing in a certain way). Bedrockgames. Should you go back and look, you will see me posting in good faith in the beginning, arguing against the bad faith misrepresentations of pemerton. AbdulAlhazred saw that as well. After a long while, though, I got sick of all the misrepresentations(as it became apparent that he was just deliberately misportraying things) and started tossing them right back at pemerton. AbdulAlhazred saw that as well. Then later on I explained what I was doing to AbdulAlhazred. Even after all of that, he chooses willful ignorance over truth and is portraying me the way he is posting here. Truthfully there are times when Max also says things that are illuminating, but I half think its by accident, I just don't know. Mostly I take him to be a hard case example of a contrarian, he's just GOT to 'win' any exchange of words. No, nothing I've done here is by accident.
  • 04:53 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned Bedrockgames in post What is *worldbuilding* for?
    ...nd read the parts of the thread Max contributed. I think you'll VERY QUICKLY find that pemerton is fully justified in his approach. I mean, honestly, don't bother, you can take it from me. It would be pretty tedious to do (though sometimes kinda amusing in a certain way). Truthfully there are times when Max also says things that are illuminating, but I half think its by accident, I just don't know. Mostly I take him to be a hard case example of a contrarian, he's just GOT to 'win' any exchange of words. I'm pretty sure there's a contingent that thinks the same of pemerton. Attacking Max because another poster calls out pemerton in his response to Max doesn't address the issues called out, you know? You just look like a jerk for throwing Max under the bus to divert from the criticism of pemerton's post. Having been deeply misrepresented by pemerton and then told by pemerton that he can't be bothered to go back and see what I said to begin with, I'm somewhat sympathetic to Bedrockgames' points, here. Sure, Max doesn't behave well sometimes, and I don't agree with him quite often, but that's got nothing to do with what Bedrockgames said about pemerton's post above.

Tuesday, 19th April, 2016

  • 09:01 PM - Quickleaf mentioned Bedrockgames in post Adventure Design
    ...g pulled into the material a bit in advance. So I'll happily buy something that has that sort of thing. Ultimately what does need attention regardless of approach to me, is what the players see, feel and interact with. For example, what an NPCs name, profession and background is might be less Important than how they smell, act, behave and are doing. So often, situations are static when they are hardly ever that way. Good topic. Can you elaborate on what you consider to be a "wall of text" and what alternatives there are to explaining the author's vision of the adventure to the reader? If, for example, every sentence is useful, does that mean it's a "wall of text," or does it require a certain amount of less useful "fluff" in there? I'm trying to get a feel for when something crosses over into the wall of text category. There's sort of two extremes when it comes to how an adventure communicates the author's vision to the reader (GM). Show or Tell. "Show" is more like what Bedrockgames is getting at, where the adventure writer tries to bring the reader/GM's mind into the adventure's themes and motifs, so that once the GM gets it, he or she describes scenes and NPCs from that framework. For example, a Ravenloft adventure would draw the reader's mind into the Gothic Horror point of view, trusting their words to evoke something in the GM, and then trusting the GM to convey that as he or she sees fit to the players. Personally, I like that approach because it emphasizes the strength of the tabletop RPG: interaction between the gamers. My group will experience the adventure a little differently (or perhaps a lot differently!) from your group and that's OK, in fact it's to be desired because it shows we're tailoring the experience to our groups. "Tell" is more like what Waylander the Slayer is getting at, where the adventure precisely describes what the PCs sense. Traditionally this was handled with boxed text. In many ways this is the opposite of "show" because it d...

Tuesday, 22nd December, 2015

  • 12:10 AM - Manbearcat mentioned Bedrockgames in post Failing Forward
    Just a quick post. Bedrockgames, there is a place for falls, death, and loss in games that feature/systematize Fail Forward is a/the primary technique for play propulsion. Just upthread I sblocked the majority portion of a conflict (you can reference it for context if you need/care to). Here is the (not sblocked) end of that conflict: GM (Me): The load off the goblin brother immediately invigorates him as his other hand firmly grasps the sled. Your heroic efforts and seeing his brother have to firm hand-holds on the sled instills further strength in him to survive. The sled very, very slowly rises as the weight is still immense. Your fingers are growing so very weary. There is little chance that you can just hold on like this for the time it will take for the sled to rise to the top. Otthor's player: With my extra weight off the sled, I know it will rise more quickly. If I fall, so be it. Defy Danger (Str) 1, 1 - 1 = 1 Mark 1 xp My strength is gone. Before my hands let go of their own volitio...

Monday, 21st December, 2015

  • 08:06 PM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Failing Forward
    Bedrockgames - apropos of the role of NPCs in "fail forward" play, have a look at my post just above this one. The NPC's anger at the mage for bringing orcs into the desert was a motivation made up by me on the spot, in order to explain why the tribesmen would be hostile to the PC. I also built in some other backstory too - the PC mage had been looking for an old contact "The Desert Fox", and it turned out - as Wassal the hostile tribesman explained (and as I, the GM, decided on the spot) - that the Desert Fox was actually Jabal the Red, now a leading figure in the sorcerous cabal to which the PC mage belongs. And Wassal had been bonded to the Desert Fox for many years before achieving his freedom and coming to lead his own band of warriors. That's the sort of way in which "fail forward" leads to the creation of backstory, but as much, or even more, as part of the output of action resolution rather than as an input to action resolution.
  • 07:58 PM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Failing Forward
    But the character still achieved the goal - which is by definition a success, not a failure.Have a look at the last page of posts between me, Bedrockgames and Umbran. I think you are conflating means and ends here, whereas - in play which makes extensive use of "fail forward" - the difference between means and ends (or what BW calls task and intent) is pretty crucial. Returning again to Manbearcat's Mt Pudding example: the goal is to get to the top of Mt Pudding and find the pudding. Without the divining rod, that goal is no longer automatically achieved simply by getting to the top of the mountain. So when the failed climbing check is adjudicated as "You lose your diving rod down the crevasse as you narrowly avoid going into it yourself," the character has not achieved his/her goal, and in fact has become less likely to achieve it. To give another example from my BW game: The PCs were in the Bright Desert, south of the Abor-Alz. The party had become separated: the elven princess had been captured by orcs, the sorcerer assassin had run away from the same orcs, and the princess's retainer and the mage were still at camp waitin...

Friday, 30th October, 2015

  • 09:13 PM - El Mahdi mentioned Bedrockgames in post Warlord Name Poll
    ...ominantly craft skill level, craft guild rank, or academic/musical) Headman/Hauptman (root of Captain and too authoritative) Proconsul (the Pro- makes it too authoritative) Shepherd (too religious, too bucolic, too Firefly) Synergist (too boring, and sounds like some kind of psychic) Armiger (exclusively military and noble) Sherriff (too noble, too law enforcement) Impetro/Impetrus (too authoritative – Imperial) Adjunct (too subordinate, too Star Trek Borg - Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero-One) Prolucutor (the Pro- makes it too authoritative, sounds like the person is a professional talker, and is just too hard to say) Warden (too Ranger) Leader(zzzzzzzzzz…) @3e4ever ; @77IM @Aaron Of Barbaria; @AbdulAlhazred ; @admcewen ; @Aenghus ; @Ahrimon ; @Ainulindalion ; @airwalkrr; @Aldarc ; @akr71 ; @AmerginLiath ; @Andor ; @AntiStateQuixote ; @aramis erak; @Aribar ; @Arnwolf ; @Ashkelon ; @Ashrym ; @Athinar ; @AtomicPope ; @Azurewraith; @Azzy ; @Bawylie ; @bedir than ; @Bedrockgames ; @bert1000 ; @billd91 ; @Blackbrrd; @Blackwarder ; @Blue ; @Bluenose ; @brehobit ; @BryonD ; @Bupp ; @Campbell ; @CapnZapp; @CaptainConundrum ; @CaptainGemini ; @Carlsen Chris ; @casterblaster ; @CasvalRemDeikun; @cbwjm ; @ccooke ; @Celebrim ; @Celondon @ChameleonX ; @Charles Wright ; ChrisCarlson; @CM ; @cmad1977 ; @costermonger ; @Creamsteak ; @Crothian ; @Cybit ; @Dausuul; @Dayte ; @dd.stevenson ; @DEFCON 1 ; @Delazar ; @DersitePhantom ; @Diffan ; @discosoc; @D'karr ; @Doc Klueless ; @doctorbadwolf ; @DonAdam ; @Dragoslav ; @Duganson; @EdL ; @EditorBFG ; @Edwin Suijkerbuijk ; @Eejit ; @ehren37 ; @Elfcrusher ; @El Mahdi ; @epithet; @erf_beto ; @Eric V ; @eryndel ; @Evenglare ; @ExploderWizard ; @EzekielRaiden; @Fedge123 ; @fendak ; @FireLance ; @Fishing_Minigame ; @Flamestrike ; @FLexor the Mighty! ; @Forged Fury ; @Fragsie ; @Fralex ; @FreeTheSlaves ; @froth ; @Gadget; @Galendril ; @GameOgre ; @Garthanos ; @Ghost Matter ; @Giltonio_Santos ; @Gimul; @GMforPowergamers ; @Gnashtooth ...

Thursday, 23rd April, 2015

  • 07:01 AM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D
    That's because it speaks to us and coins a label to common dislikes of 4e.I take it, then, that you don't think it's unreasonable to refer to Ron Edwards' analysis just because Bedrockgames doesn't like it? I don't consider it a pejorative. I consider it a useful concept.And obviously I consider Ron Edwards a much deeper thinker about RPG design than Justin Alexander. I don't know, ask your friend who has been invoking the name of the guy who called everyone brain damaged for liking white wolf or for using a theory that essentially dismissed immersion and simulation as viable things in RPGs.Next time feel free to mention me - though I'm not sure that I'm Hussar's friend; I've never interacted with him except on these forums. Also, Edwards didn't say that people were brain damaged for liking WW. He said they were brain damaged by playing WW - and after he then apologised for having done so. As for whether he dismissed simulation as a viable thing in RPGs, I guess this is what you think is a dismissal: Simulationist play looks awfully strange to those who enjoy lots of metagame and overt social context during play. "You do it just to do it? What the hell i...

Wednesday, 18th June, 2014

  • 05:33 PM - gamerprinter mentioned Bedrockgames in post RPG Patents?
    That does not agree with what google says about the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/us20140038722 The application was made on August 6, 2012. The application was private to the patent office, as usual, for 18 months. The application was then published in February, 2014. But that doesn't mean it was granted - it simply establishes precedent. It is currently listed with a publication type "Application". If the patent had been granted, it would be listed with type, "Grant" (see here for an example of one that has been granted: http://www.google.com/patents/US5370566) So, you may have been misinformed. Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding, my patent discussion has nothing to do with the RPG patent issue of the OP. I was simply pointing out an instance where a patent was granted for a practice that had been in use by other companies for 15+ years, yet still got approved. I was not referring to the Universal Horizon RPG - which aside from this thread, I know nothing about. @Bedrockgames - it wasn't for a game, rather it was for an internet search tool function commonly used by many websites.

Monday, 31st March, 2014

  • 12:19 PM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Do alignments improve the gaming experience?
    ...ht find themselves in reasonable disagreement with their patron deities. For me, this is the model of paladin-as-warlock: it suggests to me that the paladin has made a pact, and does not really fit with my conception of what faith, as a value and a commitment, requires. (The only poster I can recall who has embraced the idea that the player really is expected to subordinate the judgement of rightness to the dictates of the gods - which by my lights does make sense of faith in the game, but does not satisfy my particular priorities for affirming expressive/evaluative responses by players - is Mishihari Lord. To be honest I've been surprised that this is not a more widespread approach - to me it seems to be one pretty plausible interpretation of what 2nd ed AD&D alignment aims at, and also 3E alignment.) Other posters in this thread seem to me to have other priorities in relation to some of these aspects of play. For instance, most of those other players, as best I can tell (eg Bedrockgames, N'raac, probably others too), seem to prioritise consistency of the gods as NPCs adjudicated by the GM over affirming the expressive/evaluative responses of the players; and to draw (some version of) the distinction you also have drawn between "goodness" and "rightness". The upshot of this, such that when it comes to paladinhood and clerichood it is the judgement of the GM that has priority over the players' judgements, seems to be something they are happy to embrace. That is all fine, of course: others can play as they wish. But it is not an argument that alignment is not an impediment to my gaming experience, because it gives me no reason to embrace those consequences of using mechanical alignment. An additional aspect of the discussion that comes through mostly in N'raac's posts, and that reminds me of some aspects of the long Fighters vs Spellcasters thread, is what seems to be an ongoing attempt to show that Hussar and I are really doing the very thing that we say ...

Sunday, 16th March, 2014

  • 11:12 AM - Hussar mentioned Bedrockgames in post Do alignments improve the gaming experience?
    ...e was that I track virtually nothing in the game and he responded by throwing up his hands and declaring that I wasn't even playing a game anymore. And, from his perspective, he has a very good point. The goal of gamist play is to challenge yourself against the scenarios provided by the DM. You play from the perspective that everything is a puzzle or challenge. Alignment is useful in that it defines some of the difficulty levels of the game. Without mechanical alignment, you are free to choose the solution which is the most expedient. But, that's ultimately unsatisfying. It's like playing a video game on easy mode. There's no challenge (or at least the challenge is significantly reduced). The same goes for the idea of the players choosing their own levels or being able to choose what monsters to face. That wouldn't work in a gamist game. It would be entirely boring. It's God Mode play. Very unsatisfying. 2. The Simulationists (with a heavy dose of immersionists) Bedrockgames talks about "exploring the DM's world". That's a pretty clear simulationist approach to the game. And, if alignment can mean multiple things, you can't really explore it. It's like trying to explore a quantum situation where something is and is not at the same time. It's not going to be satisfying, because you can't explore it. With N'raac, he's approaching things heavily from a world building point of view. If a player (and thus a character because for an immersionist, there should be little to no difference) can define morality, then there isn't any morality in the world. It's like the situation with the Glabrezu wish that got brought up earlier in the thread. For N'raac, you use the alignment mechanics to increase the difficulty to gain a free wish because if it was easy, everyone in the world who could, would do it. For me, the world can go hang. I'd allow the wishes to go through because it would make an interesting story. Which brings us to the third corner of the ...

Monday, 10th March, 2014

  • 07:21 AM - pemerton mentioned Bedrockgames in post Do alignments improve the gaming experience?
    Any act so evil as to cause, in and of itself, a change of alignment would need to be pretty heinous, which would seem to make its evil pretty obvious.And? You, Imaro and Bedrockgames are all saying that it makes sense, in such circumstances, for the character to assert that the "cosmological forces of good" have made an error. I don't see how that is coherent, given the premise that such a force exists, and that the character has been acted upon it (by losing paladinhood or changing alignment). Are you now saying that it doesn't make sense, at least in cases of heinousness (whatever exactly that means in this context), for the character to contest the judgement of the cosmological force in question? In that case you're agreeing with me, aren't you? Execution of a convicted criminal, where a society believes in capital punishment. It is not a Good act, yet it seems death to criminals is quite acceptable to LG Paladins. Do you realise that this is hugely contentious? Two of the most historically famous theorists of respect for life and the right to life - Locke and Kant - believe that capital punishment can be permitted and even mandatory. Kant, in particul...


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Saturday, 20th October, 2018

  • 06:30 PM - dragoner quoted Bedrockgames in post Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?
    But you haven't said anything to convince me. Luckily, that is unimportant. You hang around alt-righters enough, you begin to think of their viewpoint as normal, I do not so I would notice that, capisce?
  • 05:19 PM - dragoner quoted Bedrockgames in post Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?
    Certainly the culture and environment you live in, will influence content. That doesn't mean people can deduce your political views just because there is a vague influence. They influence your world-view, which in turn influences your politics. I'll give you that people are probably not self aware, but then again that's just re-stating they live in an insulated microcosm. Except for those of us who are from somewhere else, or are self aware, or have situational awareness, something; we can see.

Friday, 19th October, 2018

  • 10:58 PM - Gradine quoted Bedrockgames in post Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?
    Perhaps, but it is also incredibly vague to talk about subconscious influence of politics and culture. I mean, if it is readily apparent sure. Just because it's vague and difficult to grasp doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to attempt to do so. But there are definitely games, books and movies where you'd have to strain to conclude anything, and even then, you wouldn't be sure. I think it is pretty speculative is the problem once you get into this territory. And people resent being told by others, that they magically know what they believe about politics 'because its everywhere'. I'm not presuming to know anybody else's politics. I'm suggesting that people who actively try not to think about or engage in politics might not be aware of the political implications that their actions or choices might potentially have, because they are, by definition, trying not to think about it. My argument is that this isn't exactly an ideal way to approach politics. As an aside, I'd be hard pressed to find a piec...
  • 09:43 PM - Gradine quoted Bedrockgames in post Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?
    There is a big difference though between the culture and politics that surround you having an influence, and using heroes and villains as mouthpieces for your political views. So I think when people say politics don't really enter into their GMing of the two, they mean they are not using heroes and villains to promote their partisan views. This makes total sense, and I buy this. I just personally feel people often underestimate the significance and impact of the former.
  • 09:36 PM - Flexor the Mighty! quoted Bedrockgames in post Do your Political Views shape how your villains and heroes act?
    There is a big difference though between the culture and politics that surround you having an influence, and using heroes and villains as mouthpieces for your political views. So I think when people say politics don't really enter into their GMing of the two, they mean they are not using heroes and villains to promote their partisan views. Very well put and a perfect summary of my view on it.

Friday, 17th August, 2018

  • 04:10 AM - Hussar quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    I think we are getting caught up in the minutiae of terms and details. More interested in why this point might be significant. Is there a place you think this insight leads in terms of how games are played and designed, or is it more just a categorization issue? More just categorization. Oh, no, I don't think this is particularly insightful in other aspects. It's more just another way to be able to talk about RPG's as opposed to other games which doesn't rely on Forgisms and manages to include pretty much anything that we typically call an RPG, whether story game or trad RPG. My issue with the typical way of differentiating games is that it often is used to denigrate games that the person happens to not like (X isn't really an RPG, it's a story game) and, additionally, I find that the typical definitions include too many games, particularly video games where the line is getting a lot more blurry, that aren't really RPG's. I find this a fairly clear line between RPG's and other games. Othe...

Thursday, 16th August, 2018

  • 12:27 AM - Hussar quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    But that is part of the game, not a thing you are adding in top of it. Even in something like the white box, if my memory is correct, it talks about making dungeons for example. But what is the point of all this hairsplitting? I just don't even understand where you are trying to go with this. Everyone understands one of the things that makes table top gaming unique is there is this sense of possibility when you sit down at the table, and that the experience feels so different from other media (like books, video games, etc). No one is saying table top games are not unique. I think we are just puzzled by the fixation on this point (so much so that posters who are usually at odds with one another, appear to be on the same page scratching their heads here). It's not hair splitting. That's my point that scenario creation is part of the game. It's only part of the game for RPG's. RPG's are the only games where it's required that you must create a game before you can play You can't play Mo...

Thursday, 9th August, 2018

  • 08:40 PM - TheCosmicKid quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    Not at all interested in getting historical analysis from random posters on a gaming website (this is directed at all sides of the history debate). My impression in these discussions in general is there is usually a lot of misinformation, out of date information, and analysis that is more about point scoring and winning than getting at the truth. My experience is that I score the most points by getting at the truth. So there is a happy convergence of motives. :)
  • 06:33 PM - Riley37 quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    Not at all interested in getting historical analysis from random posters on a gaming website (this is directed at all sides of the history debate). My impression in these discussions in general is there is usually a lot of misinformation, out of date information, and analysis that is more about point scoring and winning than getting at the truth. If you catch someone showing off and scoring points, do you then score a meta-point, for revealing that person's ego-driven agenda? (If so, do I then score a meta-meta-point, for naming your knock-it-off agenda?) You have the option to stop following this thread, if you don't find it useful for your own table. Threads sometimes sputter out with "no, I'm right!" "no, you're wrong!", whether that's over history, or over RAW vs RAI, or photon torpedoes versus proton torpedoes, or some other impasse. For what it's worth: every time I've researched something TheCosmicKid mentioned, the details checked out. (As factual, though large-scale conclusions of causal...

Tuesday, 7th August, 2018

  • 08:40 AM - Riley37 quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    I know this first hand because I see the anxiety on players faces when they feel like they don't know enough to play a character in a historical setting. I also see the wave of relief when they realize I am not going to sit there and make them feel like idiots if they get things wrong or have assumptions that are informed by movies rather than real history. That's a reasonable concern. I'm glad you're able to put people at ease.

Monday, 6th August, 2018

  • 06:55 AM - Riley37 quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    People are going to approach this with different levels of mastery of the subject, with different assumptions, and they are naturally going to overlook things other people might see. I'll suspend disbelief at various levels for various purposes. I enjoy Far Side cartoons in which cave-men co-exist with stegosaurus (and the Thagomizer). I've played D&D characters who could *reliably* expect that after falling fifty feet, they'd be able to stand up and fight (and/or sprint). I am not clear on the appropriate level of internal consistency for this thread, which starts with imagery from a dream. There's a difference between asking from ignorance - "what do you think would happen? or "here's an idea, is it plausible?" - versus bold declarations made without fact-checking. For example, the assertion that Custer's soldiers used muzzle-loading weapons. Would you say such a thing, without checking that it was true? Who cares? Well, the idea that Indians (aka Native Americans, aka First Peoples, ak...
  • 01:22 AM - Thomas Bowman quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    I think this would be a fun idea for a campaign. But I also think a lot of folks are taking something that should really be a fun and engaging thought exercise, counterfactual history, and turning it into something of a misery. People are going to approach this with different levels of mastery of the subject, with different assumptions, and they are naturally going to overlook things other people might see. But it completely drains the enthusiasm out of the experience, by using the discussion to position yourself as the smartest guy in the room at other peoples' expense. In counterfactual history there are not always clear answers, and people can reach wildly different conclusions, which is half the fun. Especially if the end goal is just a campaign or game book and not a history paper. To the OP, I'd say run with this concept and explore counterfactual history for inspiration if you need it. Thanks, I appreciate that.

Sunday, 5th August, 2018

  • 06:58 PM - Umbran quoted Bedrockgames in post American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC
    But it completely drains the enthusiasm out of the experience, by using the discussion to position yourself as the smartest guy in the room at other peoples' expense. Please don't ascribe motives to other posters. In counterfactual history there are not always clear answers, and people can reach wildly different conclusions, which is half the fun. Especially if the end goal is just a campaign or game book and not a history paper. If you are doing it for just the people at your home table, sure, do what you want. If the goal is a graded history paper, then critique or discussion of the real history, and how changes in cultures really play out, is pretty crucial. Especially if your counter-factual history is based on incorrect points of real history - that, sir, will get you a failing grade. You cannot answer the question of what would happen if people X experienced changes Y, unless you really understand X very well. If your goal is publication of game product, there's a differen...

Friday, 3rd August, 2018

  • 10:02 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    Apologies if I am misdirecting any of my points at the wrong posters (we're in the hundreds of posts now and honestly having trouble sifting through everything at this stage). But if that is the case, then Hussar is equivocating on the two meanings to make his argument. the argument of whether or not D&D is a game, should only use the first meaning (a rules system), never the second meaning (a particular instance of play). I don't mean to harp on this, but I see equivocation constantly in RPG discussions, and I think it is one of the things that causes some of the more questionable assumptions in the hobby to take root. That ship sailed a long time ago. In the first few pages he admitted that D&D was a game. Then he went on to make the equally absurd claim that the game rules and game play are two different games. It's that second claim that he's arguing with everyone else about right now.
  • 01:42 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    I don’t think anyone is denying prep is part of play, or denying RPGs have qualities that set them apart. But campaign creation is usually part of the rules. Most rule books have advice, guidelines and even mechanics for preparing campaigns and adventures. And if they don’t it is usually because the book assumes you already know that aspect of play. But prep is part of the game. Yep. Campaign creation = board set-up in Catan as far as what both mean to their respective games. They are both just creating the stage upon which the game is played.
  • 01:40 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    I am not confused. People are equivocating on ‘game’. Here you are using it to mean an instance or session of of play (I.e. a full game of Catan or Chess). I meant game as in the rules system (I.e. this is the game of chess). Those are two very different meanings of the same word. I don’t know when we shifted to the former use but this conversation started out seeming to make the case that D&D wasn’t a game in the latter sense by relying on the former definition of the term, which is classic equivocation. If you are making some other argument, I have no objection. We didn't switch between those two at all. The thread started out on whether D&D was a game at all, which is different from it being a game(rules system) or whether each instance of play was playing a game. Then Hussar admitted that D&D was a game, and tried to argue that if you play two different campaigns(changes in game set-up_, that somehow you are not playing D&D when you play both of them and that they are two different games(r...
  • 07:51 AM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    They are still the same game, they just have you set up a bunch of hexes randomly to create a new board each time (but the rules of play are the same). It is the rules, not the scenario, that is the game. Okay. You're confused. There are two ways to use game. You can use it as the title of the game in question, such as D&D and Settlers of Catan. And you can also use it when speaking about individual instances of playing the game. D&D doesn't have an end point. It just goes until the campaign ends, anywhere from hours, to days, to years, to decades sometimes. All one instance of playing the game. Settler of Catan, though, doesn't continue on past the individual game instance. I can sit down with my friends and play 3 or 4 games of Catan in a night. Each different game of Catan involves setting up the hexes randomly to create a new board each time. So yes, while it is all the game of Catan, there are still 3 to 4 different games of Catan being played.
  • 06:33 AM - Hussar quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    Sure but that is all scenario material. You are talking about making people and places. The core rules of the game and/or the guidelines generally operate the same from scenario to scenario (and because it is an RPG, a key feature is going to be some flexibility managing the rules by the GM). This just seems like a very unusual argument to me. I get that RPGs have a feature many other games don't: customized scenarios and campaigns. But there are other games that have comparable things, and the presence of those elements doesn't make RPGs not games (after all every game has its own unique features that separates it from other games). The big thing that separates RPGs for me from other games is the attempt to remove the usual limits and constraints that a board or computer game would have. In an RPG, there is this idea that you can at least try anything. If you want to talk to the guard about his married life, the GM needs to react to that, and a GM can react to that in a way a board game or compute...

Thursday, 2nd August, 2018

  • 09:46 PM - Hussar quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    There are plenty of computer games with random generated worlds. And even boardgames can require building a different board each time. But, each time you play, the game is still the same. Sure, some things will change - different board layouts will bring in new strategies, but, again, you are still playing the game straight from the rules. You are not requiring one player to create a completely new game every single time. IOW, while sure, you rearrange the board for Catan every time you play, you are still playing Catan. You aren't playing anything else. But, in an RPG, one campaign doesn't really need to share anything. One campaign might be entirely urban, while the next is entirely wilderness and the next is entirely dungeon crawling. One might be serial and the next episodic. And, while some games do randomly generate a board, you don't actually have to to play that game. There's a lot more to campaign creation than simply generating a map.
  • 01:34 PM - Maxperson quoted Bedrockgames in post My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games
    There are plenty of computer games with random generated worlds. And even boardgames can require building a different board each time. Those are generally different games, though. You don't typically alter the board hundreds of times over the year or more that the one game is playing.


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