Question Concerning Behavior And Rules

[moritheil]

I'm confused by something that happened recently, so I'm posting here to see what exactly the rules call for.

Two people were arguing over something, and one person stated that they could prove their argument was correct. I posted stating that I could understand the two had different opinions, but I was surprised that one of them would go so far as to suggest that they could be proved correct (which is rare on forums.) They posted providing this "proof," which was no proof at all, and I said as much. I was rewarded for my curiosity with a snippy remark about how the poster didn't have to prove herself (?) to the likes of me, and that if she believed her evidence, that was good enough for her. I replied that that really wasn't proof, and further explained my viewpoint on the matter.

At this point, Mouseferatu came on talking about how we were messing with the thread, accused us both of sniping, and declared that if we didn't cut it out, he was going to have to call mods to lock it. I was genuinely confused, but went back to the titlular topic. The thread had meandered a few times before, but no one had been yelling about things being off-topic then.

So, I came to the meta boards to try to find out if I'd done anything wrong. I found no direct mention of whether or not asking someone to prove something they said they could prove is within the rules, but I did find this thread: Ban the Thayan Menace!

In that thread, someone posts an observation that pointing out a logical inconsistency can be seen as a personal attack. He is not contradicted by the many subsequent posters. As you can imagine, this has not helped my confusion any.

1. Is it really considered a personal attack if you simply point out that someone is not logically consistent, or has said something patently false? I've posted hundreds of times quoting the SRD and telling people to their face that they were dead wrong (in the Rules forum) and never thought that it could be considered a personal attack. I have also, on a related note, attempted to show faulty logic, and never considered that it could be a personal attack. The issue is the assertion, and not the person making it.

2. Is it a personal attack if you ask someone their explanation for making a grievous error? I do this when I want to know if I should simply ignore future posts by that person. The response someone gives when they are asked this very often indicates whether or not their future posts are likely to be worth reading, or if they are going to be wildly inaccurate, full of drivel, or the like in the future as well as in that particular thread.

I attempted to contact one mod to ask my questions directly, but he did not respond to AIM.

The thread that I speak of that kicked off my rules-searching was this one.

Thanks for any light you can shed on exactly what constitutes proper behavior on EN World.

[Aaron L]

Its a personal attack when suggest that the person you are having a dissagrement with may have a mental disability, yes indeed. I've been quite disturbed by the increasing levels of jackassery I've been seeing on the boards of late.

In fact, I came to the Meta boards to make just such an observation, but seeing as this thread is already started, it saves me a bit of typing, and I am such a lazy so-and-so.

[Hand of Evil]

Use the report post buttom and just say; please look this over - I think it is out of line. Let the mod look into it, you have to step back because you have a vested interested in what is being said and yes that affects your judgement and comments, you don't have to keep adding fuel to a fire.

There are other things you can do, like post: lets take this off-line.

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by Aaron L

Its a personal attack when suggest that the person you are having a dissagrement with may have a mental disability, yes indeed. I've been quite disturbed by the increasing levels of jackassery I've been seeing on the boards of late.

In fact, I came to the Meta boards to make just such an observation, but seeing as this thread is already started, it saves me a bit of typing, and I am such a lazy so-and-so.

I asked because it falls within the range of possible reasons for stating that you can prove something, being asked nicely to prove it, and being instantly and disproportionately hostile towards the one who asks when it turns out that you can't. You will note that I stated it as one of several possibilities that spanned that range. Furthermore, the purpose of the question, as I have stated above, is to observe the response.

While I appreciate the comments from well-intentioned EN World posters, this post is in fact directed at Moderators, and I await their word.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by moritheil

I asked because it falls within the range of possible reasons for stating that you can prove something, being asked nicely to prove it, and being instantly and disproportionately hostile towards the one who asks when it turns out that you can't.

The thing is, in a text-only medium, "nicely" is kind of in the eye of the beholder, rather than the author. What you intend to be nice can read as an aggressive confrontation to another. Or, it can be read as nice, but deliberate baiting. Or, it can be read as nice, but unintentionally confrontational or baiting. So, on occasion, doggedly seeking proof can be seen as... impolite.

[Thornir Alekeg]

Obviously I am not a moderator, so you don't care about my opinion, but I feel like stating it anyway.

Looking at the thread in question, I completely agree with Mouseferatu. The sniping wasn't about proof, it was what appear to be personal attacks within those posts. Both you and the other party engaged in comments like:

"Are all your opinions so ill-founded?"

and

"Now, is English not your first language, do you have a disability, or did you mistype?"

That is where it crossed the line IMHO.

[Dinkeldog]

Originally Posted by Thornir Alekeg

Obviously I am not a moderator, so you don't care about my opinion, but I feel like stating it anyway.

Looking at the thread in question, I completely agree with Mouseferatu. The sniping wasn't about proof, it was what appear to be personal attacks within those posts. Both you and the other party engaged in comments like:

"Are all your opinions so ill-founded?"

and

"Now, is English not your first language, do you have a disability, or did you mistype?"

That is where it crossed the line IMHO.

This is it entirely. We don't care so much if a thread drifts. Personal attacks are not allowed. Please remember to treat other posters as if you were them.

[Umbran]

If what Thornir quotes is an accurate description of the thread in question, then any "nicely" worded things were sure to get lost amongst things that were not so nice at all.

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by Dinkeldog

This is it entirely. We don't care so much if a thread drifts. Personal attacks are not allowed. Please remember to treat other posters as if you were them.

Okay, I get that there is apparently some widespread stigma associated with being disabled, dyslexic, or the like, and thus my query should have been better worded. I do not get where exactly and precisely the line is between honest question and personal attack. Based on posts above, it seems to be a nebulous matter of whether or not, in theory, someone might possibly find something offensive. What is offensive to some people is not at all offensive to others. Whose standards should I use, if not my own?

If Bob goes running around in public with a bowl of ice cream dumped on his head, my common-sense understanding is that anyone who points this out is merely acting naturally. I would not suspect them of harboring ill will towards Bob in particular, of "sniping" at him verbally, or anything of the sort. I would not imagine that he had any particular right to blame others for pointing, staring, and wondering aloud if he was pulling a prank, drunk, mentally ill, etc. because his actions would clearly be so far from normal behavior that such questions would naturally arise in a frank consideration of the matter.

So how does it work on the forums? Is the proper answer, when confronted with ice cream Bob, to simply smile and talk about the weather? Is it permitted to point? To laugh? To address the issue of his wearing ice cream directly?

If someone does something blatantly incorrect, is it wrong to point this out or question them? Or does civility trump truth, logic, inquisitiveness, and sense? How far should one be willing to go to avoid the possibility of offending someone, no matter how remote it might seem in any one instance?

[Crothian]

Originally Posted by moritheil

Whose standards should I use, if not my own?

Morrus' standards. They are his boards and his rules.

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by Thornir Alekeg

Obviously I am not a moderator, so you don't care about my opinion, but I feel like stating it anyway.

Looking at the thread in question, I completely agree with Mouseferatu. The sniping wasn't about proof, it was what appear to be personal attacks within those posts. Both you and the other party engaged in comments like:

"Are all your opinions so ill-founded?"

and

"Now, is English not your first language, do you have a disability, or did you mistype?"

That is where it crossed the line IMHO.

Okay, my question regarding his actions is - as a normal poster, does Mouseferatu have the authority to demand such things? Does his threat to involve the Mods constitute normal, expected behavior, or is it itself considered somewhat belligerent? I certainly think it's plausible to read at least as much hostility towards others in his post as in any other post there, possibly even more. Should I go around threatening to involve the mods and telling people to knock it off whenever I read something I find offensive? Should I automatically flag it for Mods to read? Because if so, then I should have been flagging scores of threads in the Rules forums for Mods involvement. That means I've been seriously neglecting my duties in that regard, in which case I apologize.

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by Crothian

Morrus' standards. They are his boards and his rules.

I'm posting here because I don't understand his standards precisely. His rules post, which I have read a few times, includes a very nice and general admonition to be civil. Where the disconnect occurs is where I don't think I've been terribly rude - maybe just careless in wording, but not terribly rude - and others think I have been terribly rude. For that matter, it's also entirely possible that I find things such as being blatantly lied to by others incredibly insulting, and other people don't give it a second thought. In such instances, my default assumption has thus far been "If a mod didn't pop in and yell at someone for it, I guess it's not against the code here, so I'll just suck it up."

What I am getting from everyone's posts here is that civility has no actual definition, and if I think someone is being uncivil, they are, no matter what they think. Conversely, if someone insists that they feel offended by my post, it is offensive, regardless of what my original intent was. Is this the case?

[Morrus]

Originally Posted by moritheil

Okay, I get that there is apparently some widespread stigma associated with being disabled, dyslexic, or the like, and thus my query should have been better worded. I do not get where exactly and precisely the line is between honest question and personal attack. Based on posts above, it seems to be a nebulous matter of whether or not, in theory, someone might possibly find something offensive. What is offensive to some people is not at all offensive to others. Whose standards should I use, if not my own?

Asking if someone is mentally disabled is not one of those nebulous or vague things, or even close to it. It's not even something that needs explaining. I would suggest that if your standards are so different to everyone else's that you don't see that, then you might find posting here to be something of a challenge. I'm not entirely sure what we can do to make that easier for you.

[Dinkeldog]

I would like to first point out that the proper response is to e-mail the moderator in question or report the moderator's post to get further clarification. However, there have been a number of issues in the past couple weeks (these things seem to run in cycles), so I wanted to take an opportunity for an object lesson.

Here is the original post in question:

Look, let's get something straight here - if you say something so strongly and boldly as you did above, I believe you ought to mean it. So if you say "demonstrable," I expect demonstrable. Not "Oh, I totally believe it, though I have no proof that would convince a skeptic." That is not the meaning of demonstrable.

Now, is English not your first language, do you have a disability, or did you mistype?

If you had stopped after your first paragraph, you would have made your point fully (or nearly fully). The obvious problem is in the second paragraph. If it were worded simply, "Did you mistype?" there would have been no issue. But you are implying something about the poster that is quite pejorative. That is the specific something that we do not appreciate at ENWorld.

[Crothian]

Originally Posted by moritheil

What I am getting from everyone's posts here is that civility has no actual definition, and if I think someone is being uncivil, they are, no matter what they think. Conversely, if someone insists that they feel offended by my post, it is offensive, regardless of what my original intent was. Is this the case?

Civility has definition. Don't call people names, don't be rude, don't use subtle or non subtle insults. And if you don't get that what you said was all of that then ...I don't know what then, but you won't have an easy time being here if that's the case.

If someone finds something offensive, they should report it to the mods. In the report a post fuinction they can explain why it was offensive to them. It is the mods that really decide if something is offensive. If it is offensive, don't reply to it, just report it. Many offensive statements if ignored go away. Its really when people respoind and then trhings start to esculate that things go really bad.

[moritheil]

I started this thread before moderators said anything about that particular exchange. As such, there was no one moderator I associated with it. I looked at the mods list and attempted to contact you over AIM, because you were on at the time, but unfortunately I did not get a response.

Originally Posted by Dinkeldog

I would like to first point out that the proper response is to e-mail the moderator in question or report the moderator's post to get further clarification. However, there have been a number of issues in the past couple weeks (these things seem to run in cycles), so I wanted to take an opportunity for an object lesson.

Here is the original post in question:

If you had stopped after your first paragraph, you would have made your point fully (or nearly fully). The obvious problem is in the second paragraph. If it were worded simply, "Did you mistype?" there would have been no issue. But you are implying something about the poster that is quite pejorative. That is the specific something that we do not appreciate at ENWorld.

Do I understand you correctly that being dyslexic - a disability that could lead a poster to post incorrect words - is a shameful thing, and that therefore any question of it is inherently insulting? Do I further understand correctly that asking someone if English is not their first language is itself inherently and automatically insulting?

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by Morrus

Asking if someone is mentally disabled is not one of those nebulous or vague things, or even close to it. It's not even something that needs explaining. I would suggest that if your standards are so different to everyone else's that you don't see that, then you might find posting here to be something of a challenge. I'm not entirely sure what we can do to make that easier for you.

I had a teacher who was dyslexic, which he often frankly admitted was a mental disability. He often used words in place of those he intended to use. There was no stigma or shame anyone associated with this condition. In the situation above, there was a real possibility that someone had mistyped. My statement of that is apparently not offensive. Is it the fact that I briefly went into speculation of the reasons someone mistyped that is offensive?

I don't mean to be combative or to argue with you, but I do wish to understand things. What other issues should I never mention or ask of someone?

[Crothian]

Originally Posted by moritheil

Do I understand you correctly that being dyslexic - a disability that could lead a poster to post incorrect words - is a shameful thing, and that therefore any question of it is inherently insulting? Do I further understand correctly that asking someone if English is not their first language is itself inherently and automatically insulting?

Being dyslexic is not shameful or anything.

Calling someone dyslexic who very well may not be is insultive. Basically, it seems that what they said is so messed up to you, that the only way it could have happened is if they are dyslexic, non english speaker, or messed up. Its like that what they said could not have been done on purpose so there has to be some underlying reason for the mistake. It is very dismissive and again insulting.

[Morrus]

Originally Posted by moritheil

I don't mean to be combative or to argue with you, but I do wish to understand things. What other issues should I never mention or ask of someone?

You're seriously asking me to list everything that anybody could say that would be regarded as impolite? I'm afraid I can't do that!

Unfortunately, it appears that you just don't see these things the same way as the rest of us.
Basic civility is something which most people naturally understand, but not something I think I can explain to you in depth. Half of me thinks you're just pretending not to understand (for whatever reason), because I am finding hard to believe that you don't get it. If you honestly don't get it, I honestly don't know what I can do to make it clearer to you.

I'm not trying to be awkward here, I'm just confounded by your situation, and don't feel qualified to help you out with it.

[Kelleris]

Originally Posted by moritheil

I had a teacher who was dyslexic, which he often frankly admitted was a mental disability. He often used words in place of those he intended to use. There was no stigma or shame anyone associated with this condition. In the situation above, there was a real possibility that someone had mistyped. My statement of that is apparently not offensive. Is it the fact that I briefly went into speculation of the reasons someone mistyped that is offensive?

If they actually were dyslexic, or mentally disabled, or whatever, then it's not pejorative. It's saying that they type like someone with a mental problem that's a problem, and saying such will make most people who do not in fact have some sort of disability pretty cranky, since it tells them that you think they are a) distinctly substandard in mental functioning and b) without a legitimate reason to explain such a thing. That's tantamount to just calling someone a moron.

(EDIT: Crothian beat me to the same point.)