MetaPost comments and questions about the messageboards and other parts of EN World. If you have a problem, this is where to go. Moderator email addresses are posted here.
Keep it civil: Don't engage in personal attacks, name-calling, or blanket generalizations in your discussions. Say how you feel or what you think, but be careful about ascribing motives to the actions of others or telling others how they "should" think. People seeking to engage and discuss will find themselves asking questions, seeking clarifications, and describing their own opinion. People seeking to "win an argument" sometimes end up taking cheap shots, calling people names, and generally trying to indimidate others. My advice: don't try to win.
Keep it clean: Don't use obscenities, don't use clever tricks to run around the profanity filters, and don't link to sites with inappropriate content. The "acid test" we use is the "Grandmother Rule" -- if it would be inappropriate to say to or show to our grandmothers, don't do it. I want a typical 13 year old kid to be able to come here and participate if they want to without feeling uncomfortable. This should be a minor-friendly place. Think about it this way: how do you act around strangers or work acquaintances? You watch your language and you're on your best behavior. That's the ideal we're shooting for here.
Is the spirit or the letter of the above the most important part here? There's been quite a few instances in the last few months of people saying someone is "acting like a ______" and a moderator saying it's fine, whereas when someone else says that someone "is a ______" (the same term, typically) gets slapped down.
If it was just once or twice, I'd think it was the very-human moderators just making a (IMO iffy) judgement call, but it's become something of a pattern, suggesting to me that maybe the above is meant to be taken literally.
I've been a moderator for a large community in the past (ComicBookResources.com), so I appreciate the hassle of trying to be the parent to a whole community, so this isn't a moderator complaint so much as it is me wondering if I'm misunderstanding the FAQ.
Spirit is more important than the letter to us; it's difficult enough trying to decide if a community of thousands of daily active members are being civil without a solid-line acid test, much less enforcing a letter of the law, which is where mod judgment calls come in. I don't know if a mod has ever said it's perfectly OK to say, "act like a (child, fool, Burger King)" instead of to BE that thing, but I'd find it more likely if they saw a particular remark and didn't comment on it (because it wasn't very strong in context, or because it was five pages back and the heat of the moment had passed by hours or days, etc.) rather than saying, "ONE's OK, the other's not."
However, I will say that in grammar at high school, I did learn that in writing and speech, it's not considered incorrect to say someone behaved "-ishly" (foolishly, childishly, etc.) as opposed to saying they were "like a fool," or "were a fool." The latter is a lot stronger language than the former.
In final analysis, the spirit is more important, but spirit sometimes gets lost as the community gets larger, leading to mod judgment calls. Letter of the law, however, is more problematic to mods, or to me at least; personally I'm not about to tear my hear out over literal interpreations over something I'm not gettin' paid for, and am doing out of love for the community.
I know that personally, I'll "smack down" more readily over stuff like "you're a fool," or "you're stupid" than stuff like "I find that statement a bit silly" or "that's a foolish premise."
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
Henry, is it okay if I describe a fellow poster as behaving "assishly"?
Sure, feel free to describe yourself any way you choose!
*rimshot*
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
It is also important to note that context matters.
We act in the hops of keeping the peace, and making the overall tenor and experience of this place positive. So, where a thread has been, is now, and may be going can all influence moderator decisions. Sometimes a statement can be seen as pretty innocuous, when elsewhere a similar statement may seem pretty nasty.
In all serious, it breaks down to "Rule 0" - whatever the mods feel is necessary to keep the peace and ensure the site is fun for the majority of people. The "letter" of any rules fall a long, long way below that in priority.
I think sometimes people mistake the mods' jobs for one which involves "justice" or somesuch; while they'll try to be fair, that's not their first consideration. The greater good and all that.
Now, let's be careful there. I said "hops". Clearly, I mean that we mods always have a couple beers and are in a mellow mood before we approach the task. Figuratively, I assure you.
Location: Midwest, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group, The Mind of God.
Posts: 2,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrus
In all serious, it breaks down to "Rule 0" - whatever the mods feel is necessary to keep the peace and ensure the site is fun for the majority of people.
Yep, that's about the best, most honest summation, right there. That's also the problem. ENWorld is basically a "free" service, provided by volunteers, and they're going to do what they feel like doing, and if someone else thinks it should be done differently, it really doesn't matter. You can like it, or lump it, but complaining about it will just get you a three-day ban from Henry (right, oh many-wived one?)
It's like being invited to a dinner, and then complaining about the food, or the presentation, or whatever. It's probably not going to help change anything for the better. If you really dislike it, you don't have to stay, you can leave.
ENWorld's the same way. You can like it and stay, or lump it and stay, or dislike it and stay, or dislike it and go, or maybe even like it and go, anyway (although why you'd do that I dunno), but you can't really do much to change it. Like anything else, "The Powers That Be" are going to do what they want.
Yep, that's about the best, most honest summation, right there. That's also the problem. ENWorld is basically a "free" service, provided by volunteers, and they're going to do what they feel like doing, and if someone else thinks it should be done differently, it really doesn't matter.
Not at all. We are not deaf, and we very much do care about the happiness of the folks on the site. It seems to me that each and every mod was chosen, in part, because they care about the place as a whole.
We listen to constructive criticism, we discuss such things, we try new methods and experiment and are generally trying to keep our level of service high. But do remember that the place has collected many man-years of operational experience. We'd be fools to toss that aside lightly.
You allude to people getting temp-bans for complaining - note that I say we listen to constructive criticism. The only time I think folks have gotten bans for complaint is when they did so in violation of the rules. Framed politely in the right time and place, and we're quite wiling to listen and discuss. This thread being an example.
Location: Midwest, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group, The Mind of God.
Posts: 2,755
Well, Umbran, we are not going to agree... I think we both know that!
IF the mods are open to "constructive criticism", though, I will offer the following bit of wisdom (which the mods, in their years of operational wisdom, are free to ignore). If I were you (and I'm obviously not), I would remove the reference to "calling out" mods, and replace the reference with what you really mean: posting any comments or complaints about it, to the board.
To me, anyway, "calling someone out" means standing in the street and YELLING "JOEY BALBOA, YOU DIRTY DOG! FILL YOUR HAND, GET YOUR ASSETS OUT HERE, THEN TURN AROUND AND BEND OVER! i'M A-GONNA BLOW YER BRAINS OUT!" Apparently, though, it means something else, here at ENWorld.
I would say more, but I don't want to get banned for three days, thanks very much! I will just say that the FAQs should SAY WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN, as much as humanly possible. Fer instance: "When a mod makes a decision, DO NOT post ANYTHING about it, here...", etc.
Apparently, even making a conciliatory post is considered "calling out" a mod (at least by some mods)!
Location: Midwest, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group, The Mind of God.
Posts: 2,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrus
I think sometimes people mistake the mods' jobs for one which involves "justice" or somesuch; while they'll try to be fair, that's not their first consideration. The greater good and all that.
Unfortunately, I think that this is also the truth!
I think I need to die, so that I can find a fairer world!
To me, anyway, "calling someone out" means standing in the street and YELLING "JOEY BALBOA, YOU DIRTY DOG! FILL YOUR HAND, GET YOUR ASSETS OUT HERE, THEN TURN AROUND AND BEND OVER! i'M A-GONNA BLOW YER BRAINS OUT!" Apparently, though, it means something else, here at ENWorld.
No, if you were to start saying that stuff to me, I wouldn't ban you, I'd call the FBI. We've had mods threatened before, sometimes with personal information about them or their home and family. That gets taken dead seriously, and a stupid little ban is the least of our concerns.
However, most "calling out" or questioning still falls right within what the FAQ says:
If you really, really disagree with a moderator's position on a [moderating] issue, please don't argue about it on the boards. That means no calling out of moderators, no challenging their decisions in the thread, and certainly no attempts to go over a moderator's head.
The incidents you refer to fall right into that category.
Quote:
You can like it, or lump it, but complaining about it will just get you a three-day ban from Henry (right, oh many-wived one?)
Nope -- complaining about it in public on the forums will, and usually only if it's either really egregious or we've had previous run-ins with the person. If I temp-banned or perma-banned everyone who had something bad to say about us, It would be a lot quieter around here. Sometimes people just don't realize what actions get a mod to the point of banning somebody.
In e-mail, you can rant, rave, cajole, reason with, praise, or say what you want to me. It doesn't mean I'll necessarily change my mind (or even LISTEN if it's senseless) and it doesn't mean I'll go my own course, either. I've had my mind changed many times in the past from a well-thought-out e-mail. But call me a name publically on the forums, or say that Umbran/Pielorinho/Morrus/Rel/etc. is a loser or doesn't know what they're doing, or they're better off getting kicked out, etc. and it's vacation-time. Preserving the peace and letting people get on with discussing RPG's is the goal; whatever I feel like gets that job done is my first recourse. If it's something that doesn't require immediate action, it gets discussed. Sometimes HEAVILY.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
If there's one dragon, it's a solo monster.
If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
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