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It's happening on the Wizards boards, too, with surprising speed I might add. Why do threads critical of the upcoming 4e get locked down so fast? Can't the boards stand a healthy debate on whether 4e is needed? Or perhaps the moderators are subtly pushing a pro 4e agenda?
Let people speak. Don't be so quick to say a thread is going nowhere. It can't go ANYWHERE if you guys cut it off before it has a chance to grow.
Before this thread gets closed as well, I will point out that "healthy debate" is valued and encouraged here.
However, the 4E 'doomsday' threads have (to date) always devolved into irrational flaming, with a large proportion of posts not contributing anything to a discussion, serving only to antagonize other posters.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
I've also found that most of the guilty threads often involve the same parties. I have no doubt that threads unflattering to 4e are acceptable and even encouraged by the mods but at the same time I think that things are supposed to be respectful and civil - something that is a rarity with 4e doomsday threads.
I've also found that most of the guilty threads often involve the same parties. I have no doubt that threads unflattering to 4e are acceptable and even encouraged by the mods but at the same time I think that things are supposed to be respectful and civil - something that is a rarity with 4e doomsday threads.
So the slightest hint of incivility is jumped on and is used as cover to close a thread? That part I already understand.
I just want to know why the moderators are so fast these days. It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
So the slightest hint of incivility is jumped on and is used as cover to close a thread? That part I already understand.
I just want to know why the moderators are so fast these days. It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
See, you're kind of implying that there is an ulterior motive.
That said, on WOTC boards, there _IS_ a thread appropriately titled, "The Doomsday Thread".
I think the point for WOTC is that what sense does it make to have 10 threads which basically say the same "The end is nigh!!". Might as well consolidate all the negative threads onto one
The threads that are critical of 4e / WotC, etc., that have remained civil and that were clearly created to invigorate discussion instead of mock WotC or those excited about the new game have remained open.
So the slightest hint of incivility is jumped on and is used as cover to close a thread? That part I already understand.
I just want to know why the moderators are so fast these days. It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
The need for civility has always been a mainstay at ENWorld. That's just the way it is. That's just the way it always has been.
There is a difference between disagreeing with someone respectfully and just being rude (or lazy as the case may be). It is expected that people act in a civil manner. I believe that the overriding philosophy is that ENWorld has a reputation to maintain and beyond that threads that allowed to devolve into name calling is neither productive or informative.
As to why they are so fast to shut them down, well, I have not noticed a quickness to it but if there were it is likely because 4e is probably prone to having emotions fly faster than other threads.
The fact that some people think throwing veiled insults is a way to talk about an edition amazes me. Can't speak for the WotC boards, but the threads that have been closed here all cross a line that doesn't need to be crossed.
The fact that some people think throwing veiled insults is a way to talk about an edition amazes me. Can't speak for the WotC boards, but the threads that have been closed here all cross a line that doesn't need to be crossed.
Honestly, I am surprised some of the threads last as LONG as they do . . .
So the slightest hint of incivility is jumped on and is used as cover to close a thread? That part I already understand.
I just want to know why the moderators are so fast these days. It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
I would suggest caution at casting dispersions on the motivations of the mods. In my view they have done an admirable job of keeping things here civil, despite the number of "4E sucks and you're stupid for liking it" threads that have popped up.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
So the slightest hint of incivility is jumped on and is used as cover to close a thread? That part I already understand.
I just want to know why the moderators are so fast these days. It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
The WotC overlords declare it so.
I can't speak for WotC's forums, but here usually, all it takes is reading the last few posts to understand why a given thread is locked down. One or two people trying to ruin others' fun can be often handled with a ban, but when the flames are spreading more than that, we often times find it better to just close the topic, and try to encourage people to take a breather to get a level head before revisiting the topic. Many of the threads you are thinking of might be "joke threads", also, ones like "4E killed my dog and took it's stuff" or similar vein. One or two of these are cool, but a dozen on the front page causes the forum conversations to get stifled, and we close down all but a couple and tell people to cut back on the repetitive stuff a bit.
Frankly, I see quite a few 4E threads the past few days with healthy debate on pros and cons of a new edition - and I could probably spend the next day or so giving people reasonings for each specific thread, but I'd find it kind of a waste of time. If you had a specific one in mind, e-mail me at my e-mail address (found stickied at the top of the meta forum) and I'd be glad to answer if I can.
What we DO have a stake in, is keeping forum conversations civil, clean, and on-topic. If everyone could actually manage that, the mods would be really really happy people.
Since this thread is about forum issues rather than a 4E topic itself, I'm moving it to our Meta Forum.
__________________ "Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?" --Delericho
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If there's five dragons, they're standard monsters.
If there's a dozen dragons, either most of them are minions or your DM is tired of the campaign.
--Lizard
There is also the fact that some 4E 'criticism' threads make pretty bold statements that basically verge on "disinformation".
Consider the following two statements:
1. "I don't believe what WOTC says: I think someday they'll release Edition 4.5."
2. "4.5 is coming and we all know it."
Statement #2 is very unfortunate, especially at this time, because there is still relatively little firm information about 4E and thus rumors can be easily started and perpetuated. And that's bad for everybody.
Note that I don't even know if I'll like or hate 4E, or just be "meh" about it.
Finally, and in a way unlike the WOTC boards, the WOTC guys are registered users of EN World just like everybody else. That means that attacking or defaming them, or even just treating them rudely, isn't allowed.
__________________ "I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
I'd love an ulterior motive! Man, if someone promised me free 4e books for life if I closed a thread... :P
Seriously, people have summed up the reasons pretty well. None of the mods have a particular stake in the popularity of 4e one way or another, but we don't have much patience for hyperbolic and melodramatic posts on either side. I'd judge that anti-4e folks have been violating decorum a bit more than pro-4e folks, because they tend to be angrier and more worried, but addressing that problem is not any secret agenda on our parts.
Korgoth stated it nicely just above. Starting a thread saying "I'm worried about 4e, and this is why," is very different than starting a thread that announces "4e sucks and you're all morons for wanting it. Mourn the passing of D&D!" We don't have much patience for the latter. If you're rude or dismissive of other posters, expect problems. If you're polite and respectful, you'll be fine -- whichever side of the discussion you choose to take.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
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Assuming it broke the rules: Did you report it? We can't read every post. As such, people reporting things is very important when something needs to be moderated.
__________________ "The best gnomes were in Dark Sun." --GRAOUH !!! (WotC boards)
It's almost as if they have a stake in it or something.
Well, they don't have a stake in 4e, but they do have a stake in keeping these boards civil. If I've done the math right, and I think I have, "4e is coming and it's going to suck" threads pre-date WotC actually working on 4e, let alone announcing it. So I imagine that the actual announcement would cause the board admins to think "wow, we're going to get a lot more of those." Really, these threads were annoying three years ago, they haven't gotten any better.
I mean, it's not like there is a shortage of places to complain on the internet.
There is also the fact that some 4E 'criticism' threads make pretty bold statements that basically verge on "disinformation".
Consider the following two statements:
1. "I don't believe what WOTC says: I think someday they'll release Edition 4.5."
2. "4.5 is coming and we all know it."
Statement #2 is very unfortunate, especially at this time, because there is still relatively little firm information about 4E and thus rumors can be easily started and perpetuated. And that's bad for everybody.
A thread titled something like "Don't Be a WotC Playtest Guinea Pig" based on statement #2 above just got shut down in the 4e board; the reason given went something like "WotC have said there will be no 4.5". But didn't WotC also repeatedly say there would be no 4e, while trying to justify 3.5?
Not that I care one whit about that particular thread; it wasn't worth reading, but if WotC's 4.5e denial is going to be justification for shutting down more civil and potentially interesting "don't buy 4e, wait for 4.5e" discussions, that - to me - is a concern.
But didn't WotC also repeatedly say there would be no 4e, while trying to justify 3.5?
No, not to my recollection. Wizards made statements that some people (me included) interpreted as "there will be no 4E in 2008." At one point, they said that it won't be released soon, for example. Well, it was more than a year away at that point, and a year from now isn't exactly "soon." Also, there was a misquote that reassured people that 4E is still way off. Now, they didn't advertise that 4E will be coming 2008 before the big announcement, but they were open about that it will come some day.
__________________ Also posts as Knight Otu (here and elsewhere) and as Eques Concordia and Guinea Pig (only elsewhere).
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