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Chat is the last possible piece needing to be set up on EN2. The ISRP chat program - flashchat - is already up and running (partially), but the current plug in for IRC chat is no longer supported and over 3 years old. So what to do?
My personal preference is to use one install of flashchat for all chat services. The ISRP's rooms would be joined by one or two rooms for general ENWorld chat. The alternative is the provide a page about the ENWorld chat room with a link to download a chat client.
Thoughts and suggestions welcome - however this thread is non-binding.
Might I suggest Mibbit.com as an alternative client, embedded into a page. It does not use Java at all, and works through JavaScript/AJAX. We already have an authorised connection from the Mibbit embedded client to Otherworlders.org, and we'll be activating WebIRC functionality soon (I'll be installing it on my server today, then I'll pass it round to the other netadmins to activate later on).
In short, there's no reason not to use #dnd3e (or #dnd4e, or #enworld or anything else) on otherworlders.org, since that's where the community is and has always been?
If you'd like more identity, then I'm sure that with xmanii's (xmanii maintains #dnd3e at the moment) permission a redirect could be set up #dnd3e -> #enworld if you wanted to rename the channel or whatever?
In fact, a Mibbit client could be used for ISRP too? No need for ENWorld to maintain a chat server at all?
If you want any help configuring/installing/using a Mibbit client, give me a shout - toreadorvampire@hotmail.com - since I've done a lot of customising work on it for my own purposes on a website I'm developing.
__________________ Nobody suspects a Toreador...
Last edited by ToreadorVampire; 25th March 2008 at 02:16 PM..
If mibit can provide a chat page gateway into the chatroom that's all I really want. As to ISRP, they've chosen flashchat and I really don't want to try to move them off of it.
I actually havent looked at the exact java chat that is in use since I use an true IRC client myself. The java chats we currently are offering to others is PJIRC. (Apparently they are changing their website because its going to a landing page right now since the 13th of March). This is embeded into a website. It was last updated about a year ago but at the last time I was aware was actively being developed.
The current EN World chat may be a some version of this that was coded specifically for the forum engine in use here. And unless there has been a major upgrade to that software I dont think the chat would need any changes. The old addage of ... if it works dont fix it.
Mobitt looks pretty neat, I think it might be based on the CGI:IRC project but I'm not sure. We also offer that chat client (CGI:IRC) to some clients as well if they are against java for whatever reason.
#dnd3e has long been the home of EN World and its predesessor. And many of its users do use an IRC client of some kind. You may find the community against any move towards a flashchat option. Not to mention the other changes that would have to happen doing that.
Bandwidth, finding and training all the chat moderators, bot coding since the current IRC bots in place wouldnt work either and probably a ton of other changes that are not realized until it happens.
I have seen some flashbased IRC clients out there that could be embedded into a website but I've never been able to get them to work, but that could be due to my lack of technical knowledge when it comes to flash as many of them require some kind of changes to the source.
Thats my 2 cents worth ... I think it would be a bad move on EN World's part to change the chat engine. IRC has long been the accepted norm for EN World and is cross platform and has a ton of options for chatters to use to access it. Changing to all Flashbased is the kind of thing that WotC did which alienated a lot of its users. No solution will be 100% acceptable to everyone, thats not going to happen. Cost effective in terms of time it takes to implement and develope ... and IRC wins over any flashchat. Everying is already in place.
http://ksl.dev.craigfowler.me.uk/who/chat/ - NOTE - this is intentionally broken at the moment while we transition to WebIRC - you will recieve "connection terminated" messages from any Mibbit client used to connect to Otherworlders.org until all of our configs are updated. Shouldn't take too long. - fixed, WebIRC is configured and working on all otherworlders servers. Thanks Bynw and DarkSir!
It's a pretty heavily customised embed client (userlist removed, server messages and server notices muted, and I'll be tinkering with the colour scheme in a while) - bits of that web page need fixing too, but you get the picture!
The guy who developed Mibbit goes by the name Axod and hangs out in irc.mibbit.com #help and he's absolutely great for answering questions and processing feature requests (no, really, I mean it - I've had new features/bugfixes completed within minutes!) - plus there's a wiki over at http://wiki.mibbit.com with some documentation (bit disorganised at the moment though, Axod might be better for general Q&A)
__________________ Nobody suspects a Toreador...
Last edited by ToreadorVampire; 25th March 2008 at 11:10 PM..
Gotta second Bynw here. 99% of the ENWorld chat community uses IRC and IRC clients and there would be a strong opposition to any kind of change.
Not to mention Flash requires lots of memory from PCs.
__________________ To be able to fly? To be smoke? Or wolf? To know the night and livin' it forever? That's not so bad...You call us monsters...but when you dream you dream of flying...and changing...and living without the death. You envy us...and what you envy...you destroy.
I actually registered for an account just to post. If there's any way that it can be done without losing support for the IRC people, it'd be great. I've only ever used the chat, not the forums, and I think a lot of people do the same. :/
Hi All,
I just wanted to put in my two cents...
IRC is the internet's standard Chat application. It was created before the World Wide Web, and it is a proven technology. We have an established community at #dnd3e on otherworlders.org, some of which came from the enworld site, some who have come just through word of mouth and google searches. Changing the chat service so it is not accessible with a standard IRC client will split that community. Some will move over, others will stick with IRC, and both sites will have less visitors as a result.
I'm assuming that this change was suggested as a result of the rather funky webchat interface that is currently being used. There are many options available to spruce up the existing page, and maintain the current destination of the chat room. Bynw's mention of the CGI:IRC project is the first to come to mind, and the MIBBIT.COM site looks outstanding...so please allow us to assist you in getting the webchat up to the same standard as the rest of the site, and don't punish the existing community for decisions they have no control over.
I found Wizards chat used to be dead... whether #dnd3e is the official chat or not, it should still see support or reference from ENWorld so people know its there for IRC users.
For all my quibbles with D&D, the channel is still a fairly good place to hang out.
Although my current nick is new, I've been perusing EN World since it was Eric Noah's Unofficial 3e News and had a previous nick on the boards way back when. I stopped coming for several years due to eventual disinterest in 3.x and came back when I heard about the 4e announcement, hoping to find news and discussion here.
Much the same happened with the IRC channel.
From my point of view, Bynw has supported EN World since before it was EN World. A little reciprocation via, at the very least, loyalty wouldn't be too much to expect I would think. I'd like to see the channel expanded, not split in half, which would be the likely result of moving away from otherworlds.org.
Just as a side note, when will we be seeing various industry icons and designers in special IRC chat events organised with the power and influence of EN World in the chat room?
Honest question: do the majority of the folks in #dnd3e see themselves as being in EN World's chat room, or in an IRC channel which happens to be about D&D? At least one person above has said they just use the IRC channel, and not the site, which seems to divorce the two somewhat.
Also, how many of the current registered users of EN World use the chat room as it it now? It may be that whatever barriers exist are keeping people from joining into EN World chat room usage. I've used the IRC channel plenty over the years and, no offense to anyone involved, it often is polulated by a dozen or so names that are parked but not actually there. I do not doubt that there is a close knitted community of people who do use that IRC channel at particular times that they all happen to be available, and they are good people from what I have experienced, but it would be ashame to not explore options that might grow the community or allow more EN Worlders to participate in an EN World chatroom option. On the other hand, maybe no matter what you build it will only ever be used by a couple of dozen people with any regularity.
In my opinion you only have to answer on question: Would you like do something with no support, no regulars, no set rules or guidelines with a program that's considered by many to be using too much resource of the computer or would you rather build on a system that's already in place, used by lots of people and easy to modify (for example creating an #enworld channel on the server)? After you got the answer, do what must be done.
Mark:
Why do you think the current chatroom structure doesn't allow room for the community to grow? And how do you think a new chatroom software would actually change the behavior of the people?
I'm only asking these questions because -as I said earlier- I think most users of otherworlders.org would not change to a flashchat and I think you should consider that having a second chat would hurt both networks more than having one chat that's somewhat plug-and-play.
__________________ To be able to fly? To be smoke? Or wolf? To know the night and livin' it forever? That's not so bad...You call us monsters...but when you dream you dream of flying...and changing...and living without the death. You envy us...and what you envy...you destroy.
...but it would be ashame to not explore options that might grow the community or allow more EN Worlders to participate in an EN World chatroom option.
Is this option somehow invalid with the current set up?
From what I understand, and I speak for no-one but myself in this regard, the chatroom hasn't received very much support from EN World whereas the chatroom has supported EN World very much.
If you wanted the EN World chatroom to grow the community, that is entirely possible and far more likely and easier to do with the current setup than creating an entirely new and separate entity.
I'm sure that if EN World was to promote the chatroom more and provide some level of support for added functionality and community options that the otherworlders staff would be happy to be involved.
Again, I only speak from opinion and do not speak for anyone else on this matter. Just saying it as I see it.
The current EN World chat may be a some version of this that was coded specifically for the forum engine in use here. And unless there has been a major upgrade to that software I dont think the chat would need any changes. The old addage of ... if it works dont fix it.
The upgrade involves changing vbulletin from version 3.0.7 to version 3.7. Absolutely none of the old code will work due to key changes in the vbulletin API that were implemented in version 3.5. vbxirc is not an option, it's successor for vb 3.5 was never completed, so it too isn't an option.
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#dnd3e has long been the home of EN World and its predesessor. And many of its users do use an IRC client of some kind. You may find the community against any move towards a flashchat option. Not to mention the other changes that would have to happen doing that.
Bandwidth, finding and training all the chat moderators, bot coding since the current IRC bots in place wouldnt work either and probably a ton of other changes that are not realized until it happens.
This comment, implying the community at #dnd3e would not be willing to move, that none of the moderators would move over, strongly implies that the #dnd3e has a love of D&D in common with ENWorld and absolutely nothing else. I know user crossover is minimal - I've been in there enough times to know the folks that idle in the channel don't use the boards often. I've been told point blank by several users that they don't frequent the site at all when I've went in there to look for testers on dev in the last year.
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Thats my 2 cents worth ... I think it would be a bad move on EN World's part to change the chat engine. IRC has long been the accepted norm for EN World and is cross platform and has a ton of options for chatters to use to access it. Changing to all Flashbased is the kind of thing that WotC did which alienated a lot of its users.
False. WotC moved to an incredibly buggy proprietary chat system instead of Flashchat which caused the alienation you speak of. This incident is why the ISRP boards were moved from the WotC server to here.
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No solution will be 100% acceptable to everyone, thats not going to happen. Cost effective in terms of time it takes to implement and develope ... and IRC wins over any flashchat. Everying is already in place.
Whatever solution is adopted, it must include full Integration with vbulletin. That means
No one can register a handle in the channel that does not have a corresponding messageboard account.
Anyone banned from the forum is likewise banned in chat, and vice versa
Chat must be usable from a web page. I don't care how many IRC client programs it allows, it must have a web portal.
If IRC can deliver this I'm all ears. If it cannot then it is off the table as far as I'm concerned.
I know user crossover is minimal - I've been in there enough times to know the folks that idle in the channel don't use the boards often. I've been told point blank by several users that they don't frequent the site at all when I've went in there to look for testers on dev in the last year.
This hardly counts for decisive research into the matter.
A couple of people voicing their opinions or stating their habits doesn't make up for the majority.
And just out of curiosity, what nick did you use? How long did you stay in the channel? Did you attempt to join the community there or did you just go in, ask a few questions, and leave?
As I mentioned earlier, I used to come here and the chatroom before I lost interest in 3.x. But I hardly ever posted because I was busy with other things. I currently have a lot of spare time so I find myself posting and chatting more often. Point being, just because people aren't regular posters, doesn't mean they aren't regular members of EN World. Does post-count now determine how valid your opinion is?
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Originally Posted by Michael Morris
If IRC can deliver this I'm all ears. If it cannot then it is off the table as far as I'm concerned.
Those are some very restrictive requirements which I'm guessing you know can't be achieved by a dedicated IRC network in connection to a forum.
It seems you care more about what you want than the community itself. The community of #dnd3e is speaking and you're flatly denying them their wishes. It makes me wonder why you started this thread at all if you were always just going to do what you wanted regardless.
*shrug* it's your server so I guess do whatever. But if you ask for people's opinions, expect to get them.
Those are some very restrictive requirements which I'm guessing you know can't be achieved by a dedicated IRC network in connection to a forum.
For the most part vbxIRC accomplishes these goals. It is not compatible with vb 3.5 though, so an alternative must be found.
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It seems you care more about what you want than the community itself. The community of #dnd3e is speaking and you're flatly denying them their wishes. It makes me wonder why you started this thread at all if you were always just going to do what you wanted regardless.
*shrug* it's your server so I guess do whatever. But if you ask for people's opinions, expect to get them.
It's not my server - it's Russ'. Accusing me of not caring about the input in this thread is very bad form. If you want me to not care then by all means continue making snarky comments like that.
It's not my server - it's Russ'. Accusing me of not caring about the input in this thread is very bad form. If you want me to not care then by all means continue making snarky comments like that.
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