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I've got to say, I've really enjoyed the ban on the edition wars. I feel like I can actually read threads in safety and enjoy poking around. Especially in the General section.
It's a bit of a forlorn hope, but I figured I'd formally ask anyways: Could the edition wars ban be extended?
I've got no objection to folks discussing how one system or another handles something, but I really have zero interest in threads like that "4E is the new Coke" thread. I mean, it doesn't serve any purpose other than to try and rile folks up. Some people like the new edition, some don't. Big deal.
I don't really know how ENWorld stacks up against places like the WotC or the Pathfinder forums. I don't frequent those places in the first place, because of the reputation they've got.
Right now ENWorld has a pretty good reputation (especially for being a d20 forum), and it'd be nice to keep it that way.
I for one don't happen to think mods are an evil thing. I've seen the places without 'em, and by and large they're not pretty.
I wouldn't be surprised if we extend it; edition wars solve nothing and mostly succeed in greatly pissing me off.
We'll chat about it.
__________________ - Piratecat, EN World Admin
Currently editing the 4e War of the Burning Sky adventure path. Support EN Publishing, get excellent modules!
I think it's a great idea to extend it. While there has still been the odd thread pop up, and some edition-warsy comments creep into some otherwise-okay threads, I think on the whole most of the ENWorld populace has been respectful of the ban.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
It'd be nice if there were some clear-cut exemptions, like allowing a guy to ask what the differences are between the editions.
As long as that doesn't devolve into "3E sucks because..." and "2E rules because..." that wouldn't be an edition war anyway. Factual comparisons are never a problem. "3E is an RPG, but 4E is not", on the other hand, is a problem.
I guess I'm saying I trust in mod fiat enough to not worry about needing clear-cut exemptions, because your example could turn into an edition war, even if it wasn't intended that way.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
As long as that doesn't devolve into "3E sucks because..." and "2E rules because..." that wouldn't be an edition war anyway. Factual comparisons are never a problem. "3E is an RPG, but 4E is not", on the other hand, is a problem.
I guess I'm saying I trust in mod fiat enough to not worry about needing clear-cut exemptions, because your example could turn into an edition war, even if it wasn't intended that way.
I'm against stopping useful discussions because one could turn bad. Instead, ban the people who turn it bad directly.
I'm personally very interested in dissecting the play implications of the design differences between 3e and 4e. I think most of us here are grown up enough to handle such conversations, and it'd be sad to allow the fraction who can't handle mature discussion dictate what the rest of us are allowed to discuss.
If one month isn't enough to let the "New Coke" nerd-rage cool down, make it two, but please do plan to eventually allow comparison.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
At the moment, the ban is slightly problematic - I see a growing trend for people to call "edition wars!" on any and all threads that criticize some aspect of an edition. I don't find that at all acceptable.
On the other hand, many people are still being goobers, and lashing out by crapping on threads that don't deserve it.
If we continue the ban, we will restrict the free flow of ideas. If we remove the ban, we are going to have to be a lot more stringent with discipline - and we will have folks complain that we disciplined them when they didn't deserve it.
Until the populace of EN World gets its collective head together, there is no good solution.
I'm personally very interested in dissecting the play implications of the design differences between 3e and 4e.
Yeah, I've certainly got no problems with someone doing that. I mean, that's part of the whole joy of posting to the forums in the first place, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbran
At the moment, the ban is slightly problematic - I see a growing trend for people to call "edition wars!" on any and all threads that criticize some aspect of an edition. I don't find that at all acceptable.
On the other hand, many people are still being goobers, and lashing out by crapping on threads that don't deserve it.
If we continue the ban, we will restrict the free flow of ideas. If we remove the ban, we are going to have to be a lot more stringent with discipline - and we will have folks complain that we disciplined them when they didn't deserve it.
Until the populace of EN World gets its collective head together, there is no good solution.
I understand. I do think that Nifft has a point in providing some examples of what "is" and "is not" considered to be edition war fodder, with the additional stipulation that the examples are merely examples and not intended to be a full and complete accounting of all of the possibilities.
While I don't happen to fear any kind of stricter mod oversight, I'm also cognizant of the stifling of "free speech" in the form of "Here's a bunch of draconian measures we're taking for your protection. The only people that need to be afraid are those that plan on breaking the rules, and if you've got concerns about it that means you're likely a problem person."
I also find people calling "edition war!1!!1" just because someone happens to prefer a different approach to stuff to be ridiculous. And contrasting the approach taken by one system or another doesn't strike me as being much different.
There really isn't a good solution, and I do think that riding hard on the "edition war ban" would be a bad thing. I don't know if it's possible (practical) to do a "half ban", so that folks like Nifft could feel free to discuss system stuff/contrasts without having "edition war!1!!11!" screamed at them, but it'd be nice if such a thing were possible ...
*sigh*
At the end of the day, decisions have to be made and no matter what happens there's going to be some folks disappointed by it. I just figured I'd toss in my vote for the enforced sanity we've had recently.
I don't think a "permanent" ban would be a good thing (or even possible) for the boards. My hopes for the extension were along the lines of another month, or doing a "half ban" like I mentioned in this post. *shrug* Then again, perhaps the community is just going to have to suck it up and deal with some harsher modding in the short term until folks understand that the lifting of the ban doesn't mean they're free to run riot.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Oh, and by the by... I'm really enjoying the new ENWorld forums. Much smoother, and all kinds of little nice thingies.
I understand the practical reason for the ban, but in the long term, I think these things will have to work themselves out. Stating one edition is better than another is against the "no wars" policy, but it's a reasonable position to take, as long as you are tactful about it. Maybe it's too soon, but I'm starting to wonder when it will have been "long enough."
At the moment, the ban is slightly problematic - I see a growing trend for people to call "edition wars!" on any and all threads that criticize some aspect of an edition. I don't find that at all acceptable.
On the other hand, many people are still being goobers, and lashing out by crapping on threads that don't deserve it.
If we continue the ban, we will restrict the free flow of ideas. If we remove the ban, we are going to have to be a lot more stringent with discipline - and we will have folks complain that we disciplined them when they didn't deserve it.
Until the populace of EN World gets its collective head together, there is no good solution.
Use the tools at your disposal. Mods can split edition wars conversation out of threads that it inappropriately infects and then combine the split-off thread into a huge ongoing depository thread for edition wars chatter (and temp ban anyone who repeatedly causes that to need to happen in threads where it is inappropriate). Once people realize that trying to shut down conversation by jumping in with edition wars talk or accusations, I think that ploy will become less attractive.
Stifling genuine discussion on edition comparisons is probably not a good thing for EN World in the long run.
I'd be quite happy if the next silent wail happens in someone else's living room. I'll watch from across the street in Morrus' living room with binoculars.
Edition wars are basically ideological differences. I have yet to see one that is any different from the political/religious/spanking fights that are thankfully not allowed here. If you want to edition war, go to CM.
-blarg
__________________ Red Hot Swing
"In Inspired Sarlona, nightmares have you!" -Klaus
I wouldn't be surprised if we extend it; edition wars solve nothing and mostly succeed in greatly pissing me off.
Pretty much my feelings about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbran
At the moment, the ban is slightly problematic - I see a growing trend for people to call "edition wars!" on any and all threads that criticize some aspect of an edition. I don't find that at all acceptable.
Only a slight problem though - some people report too many things as 'edition warz!' just like some people report too many things as 'politiks!" It is fairly easy to filter them out.
I don't think most people have difficulty in distinguishing between rational comparison and commentary on rule differences between editions on the one hand and slamming other editions (or by implication those that like other editions) on the other hand.
The problem is that some people do have difficulty - and I've seen it bring out the worst in people, including some of whom I would not have expected it.
Regards,
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
We are using the tools at out disposal, within the limits of the time we have to pay attention to the boards. We only employ hings like topic bans when things would otherwise get out of hand.
Quote:
Stifling genuine discussion on edition comparisons is probably not a good thing for EN World in the long run.
Yes, I agree. But there's an honest question of whether that genuine discussion can happen, given how the people here have been behaving. Too much threadcrapping and aggressive dogmatic argument stifles discussion as well or better than a topic ban.
I put it to you that the populace of EN World has more collective power over this than the mods do - if folks would just stop engaging the problem would vanish. But they don't, so it doesn't.
I put it to you that the populace of EN World has more collective power over this than the mods do
You guys get the bad apples (perhaps with a bit more temp banning, or perma-ban with repeat offenders, rather than thread locking and topic banning), and the rest of us will have no trouble behaving just fine, IMO. I'd suggest starting off by going to each thread that has been locked, making a short list of the repeat offenders, and sending them all a three day vacation as a preemptive strike as the ban is lifted.
I'd be quite happy if the next silent wail happens in someone else's living room. I'll watch from across the street in Morrus' living room with binoculars.
Edition wars are basically ideological differences. I have yet to see one that is any different from the political/religious/spanking fights that are thankfully not allowed here. If you want to edition war, go to CM.
-blarg
Bring an edition war to CM and the locals will laugh at you relentlessly and mercilessly.
Edition wars are basically ideological differences.
-blarg
See, this is what I find so silly about the so-called "edition wars". People have idealogical differences over things like politics, religion, global climate change, abortion and teaching creationism or evolution in public schools. People fight real wars over ideological differences, and real people die.
We, on the other hand, are arguing like a bunch of shallow, spoiled little brats over a game.
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