Ads appearing anyway

[Alzrius]

I recently cleared out my cache of temporary internet files, and now EN World is displaying differently. I checked my profile, and it's still set to having the ads along the side of the page not be visible - and yet, they're showing up anyway.

Moreover, although I'm still logged in, most of the basic information for easy navigation isn't being displayed along the top of the page. I can't, for example, see the links to this forum above the text window, nor the option to search the forums.

What's going on and how do I fix it? I've already tried logging out and back in, but it's no use.

[Merkuri]

You sound like you're having a similar problem to this: Suddenly there is a script error...

What browser are you using? Is it IE6 as well?

[Alzrius]

I'm using Firefox 3, myself.

In the last few hours, the good news is that the missing navigation links at the top of the screen have all reappeared, which is good.

However, I'm still getting notices on the right side of the screen. Looking them over, they're not ads per se, but are "Visit Our Sponsors," "Popular Tags" "Recent Blogs" and "Reviews." None of these were there before, but can't be gotten rid of now. The exception is on the main forum page; they don't appear there.

[Morrus]

This thread.

[CapnZapp]

Adblock Plus & Flashblock is your friend.

Assuming you're using Firefox, that is.

[Morrus]

Originally Posted by CapnZapp

Adblock Plus & Flashblock is your friend.

Assuming you're using Firefox, that is.

If you're not a Community Supporter, that would be extraordinarily rude (especially since we sell the ad-free version); it's not much to ask for free use of the site - let us get our few ad impressions from you each day so that we can afford to run the site for you.

It's probably even worse to advertise that you're doing it.

[Michael Morris]

Originally Posted by CapnZapp

Adblock Plus & Flashblock is your friend.

Assuming you're using Firefox, that is.

Adblockers can be blocked and it's not that hard either.

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, what did I miss here?!

Me being rude for using the great functionality offered by Firefox plug-ins, which was the sole reason for me switching away from IE a few years ago?

Let me be clear: I'm a proud user of adblock and flashblock. They're great products that put the power firmly where it belongs: in the hands of the consumer. I see nothing controversial in this whatsoever.

I have nothing against your site, Mr Morris. In fact, I appreciate it very much.

But I wouldn't dream of stopping all the nasty popups, ads and blinking stuff surfing generally attracts (from elsewhere, not here) just because I happen to visit your particular site.

Of course, you're free to try to circumvent these programs. But 1) I understand it is hard to do, 2) easily side-stepped by new versions of the program, and much more importantly: 3) you're only annoying the segment of your user-base that's likely to either stay away or only become annoyed at ads anyway. That is, the segment of users for which the value of ad impressions is very low anyway.

Obviously I hope you can see this from the consumer's POV, and thus see these programs for the great functionality they represent.

But at the least, I hope we can agree to disagree while still respecting each other. You're certainly the first person I've encountered that calls running adblocker rude, or more specifically, calls me rude for running these essential plug-ins, which I'll admit shocks me a little bit.

As for becoming a community supporter, I've considered it. (Have really only started playing D&D and 4E "for real" again a month ago; before that I mainly frequented rpg.net where I indeed signed up some time ago). Let's discuss this first, obviously.


Best Regards
Zapp

PS. If there's some sort of policy against users running blockers, I've missed it. (I'll freely admit I haven't looked, mainly because I never dreamt there could be one). In fact, if you have it (and are, say, about to block me) you need to draw much more attention to it for users in general. But what can I say - I would strongly advise against alienating what probably amounts to a significant part of your userbase.
PPS. Feel free to take this to PM and I'm fully willing to discuss this further, also divulging my real name. The above opinions are real, and not "just some anon user's".

[Michael Morris]

First off, it isn't my site.

Second off, using an adblocker is stealing bandwidth from the site operator since you are cutting off their ability to pay for the bandwidth you are using.

Third, if the problem continues to grow there are ways to stop adblock plugins. Most all of them are far more intrusive and obnoxious than the ads are in their current state. Given the choice between using them and going out of business, most site owners will reluctantly choose to use them.

Fourth, where I'm from theft is rude. Bragging about doing it doubly so.

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for your reply,

#1: Sorry, my mistake.
#2: False in so many ways. If anything, blocking ads is saving bandwidth. Your argument is the same as saying blind people steal from TV networks, because they don't see the ads. No, this isn't me dragging in a crude and offensive analogy. This is literally the result of having your position.
#3: As long as you or I own and control our own computers, any and all efforts to force-feed consumers ads will fail. Period. And happily we are (still) some way away from a society where individuals are obliged to watch commercial messages, such as if only sealed surf boxes are allowed on the internet...
#4: I agree. Luckily I am not a thief in any way, form or shape. Neither legally, nor morally.

I understand this isn't the right forum for this discussion, so I'll simply express my best wishes you will see the complete and utter untenability of your position some day.

Until then, back to the games we both love!

[Michael Morris]

Ok, Capn, you need an education in online ads and how they work:

Ads are sold in impression lots - around $1 per 1000 impressions. Nearly every page serve triggers an exposure.

Consider a site that runs through approximately 4 million pages. If each one carries an ad that's $4000 revenue.

Now say half the users use an ad blocker. Well, we are down to $2000 in possible revenue since only 2 million pages had ads on them.

If three quarters use an ad-blocker then we're down to $1000 in revenue. Unfortunately, we're still serving 4 million pages, and a server capable of doing that costs about $500 / month. That won't change. If enough users use adblocking then the revenue stream is destroyed.

That is fact capn and no amount of fantasy or weaseling on your part changes that fact.

As to the second, unless you have the skills and know-how to build a browser from scratch, you cannot stop adblock countermeasures. Even if you have those skills is it really worth your time? As to the rather arrogant and ignorant comment about owning and controlling computers - puhlease. If you are like 99.999% of all users on the net (myself included) you do not have total control of your computer so stop living in the fantasy world that you do. Viruses, trojans, worms, spyware and adware exist for a reason - you can't lock an open computer system completely down.

If I am running a site I can force you to use javascript to view my content. Once you enable that language you have lost any ability to stop me from putting anything on your screen in that browser tab. If you don't want to give me the right to run javascript then you don't see my content.

Do websites do this? No, not yet. There are not enough adblock thieves out there yet to warrant the hassle. If they become common enough to threaten the revenue that funds the site though there will be a move to block them.

[jaerdaph]

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

Adblockers can be blocked and it's not that hard either.

I think EN World should just go ahead and implement that.

And if I ever get off my lazy ass and renew my CS account, I'd leave ads on anyway. It's not like they're for Viagra or credit reports - they're RPG company ads for Christ's sake - companies many of us buy from, and I for one like the idea that they support the site by buying ads in the first place.

[Arnwyn]

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

Fourth, where I'm from theft is rude.

I'm glad you've never, ever, fast-forwarded through a television commercial during a show that you've recorded. Good on ya! Keep fighting the good fight!

Or alternately, where you're from is the Land of Delusion.

Bragging about doing it doubly so.

Please stop with the foolish statements. It doesn't help what credibility you have.


In any case, of course it's not rude. That's laughable nonsense. It may be annoying, but whatever - coming up with a way to stop ad-blocking may just be a necessary step to protect your interests. Nothing wrong with that.

The website providers need to do what's necessary (and they should), while consumers will use what tools they have. 'Market forces' win out in the end. Yay.

[Michael Morris]

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

I'm glad you've never, ever, fast-forwarded through a television commercial during a show that you've recorded. Good on ya! Keep fighting the good fight!

Apples and Oranges. Television ads are sold by length and time shown and then added to the feed. By the time the show hits the air they are paid for so whether you fast forward through them or not. The same incidentally for newspaper ads - they are paid for before they are embedded into the paper itself.

Internet ads work quite differently - the page arrives on your computer without an ad at all, the javascript performs a callback to the adserver. Adblockers stop this from occurring and in so doing insure the ad never gets broadcast in the first place.

Or alternately, where you're from is the Land of Delusion.

Please stop with the foolish statements. It doesn't help what credibility you have.

I'm the one that doesn't have a damn clue about how ads on the internet work. I'm also not the one that's trying to argue about something I obviously haven't worked on 1 day for to a guy that's been doing this crap for going on 5 years.

In any case, of course it's not rude. That's laughable nonsense. It may be annoying, but whatever - coming up with a way to stop ad-blocking may just be a necessary step to protect your interests. Nothing wrong with that.

Plenty wrong with it actually. It's a waste of computer resources to start a cat and mouse game between website owners and adblock software providers to determine whether ads show. Forcing all the page loads to go through AJAX is a waste of resources both server and client side.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

Please stop with the foolish statements. It doesn't help what credibility you have.

Dude. Rude. People who take potshots like that shouldn't be talking about credibility.

Everybody: Stop being personal. Address the content of the post, and stop trying to impugn the character of the person you are talking to.

Several folks here have been overly snarky, mean, and unkind to each other. Everyone needs to step back, and consider how civil they have, or have not, been.

[Arnwyn]

Originally Posted by Michael Morris

Apples and Oranges. Television ads are sold by length and time shown and then added to the feed. By the time the show hits the air they are paid for so whether you fast forward through them or not.

Internet ads work quite differently - the page arrives on your computer without an ad at all, the javascript performs a callback to the adserver. Adblockers stop this from occurring and in so doing insure the ad never gets broadcast in the first place.

And the more they FF, the fewer they watch ads, and thus the fewer companies give ad dollars to the networks, and voila - same result. I'm watching TV, and not watching their ads. "Theft", supposedly. (Of course it's not.)

'How' isn't relevant to internet consumers. They are doing the same thing with one entertainment source (avoiding ads) as the other. Nothing wrong with that - especially if the revenue is through a - quite apparent as we see now - questionable delivery method. Whoops on the website providers part (because that's who to blame).

I'm the one that doesn't have a damn clue about how ads on the internet work. I'm also not the one that's trying to argue about something I obviously haven't worked on 1 day for to a guy that's been doing this crap for going on 5 years.

*shrug* You're the one who used the word "theft", which it clearly isn't.

Plenty wrong with it actually. It's a waste of computer resources to start a cat and mouse game between website owners and adblock software providers to determine whether ads show. Forcing all the page loads to go through AJAX is a waste of resources both server and client side.

Then complain to the adblock creators. Quit flailing at the consumers who are using legitimate tools.

In general, accusing normal internet users of being "rude" and of being 'thieves' isn't helpful, nor called for.

Originally Posted by Umbran

Dude. Rude. People who take potshots like that shouldn't be talking about credibility.

I apologize. I was attempting to address the statement, not the person. My second sentence screwed things up more.

[Plane Sailing]

Hey guys - the issue behind the scenes is this: ENworld needs money to run the servers and provide the bandwidth.

Morrus has not yet become fabulously independently wealthy, so money has to be raised from somewhere to keep the site running.

Many people sign up as community supporters, for which we are incredibly grateful. The direct contribution which you make towards the continued existence of ENworld is hugely appreciated. These people are directly contributing their money to ENworld.

There is a wider range of people who, for all kinds of reasons, don't want to sign up as a Community Supporters at the moment. We still love their contributions to ENworld, and accept that they don't want to directly give us money at the moment.

There is a third group of people (the advertisers) who will give us money every time one of their adverts gets seen by people. This is important, as ENworld needs regular advert income. It is also means that those people who don't want to make a financial commitment to ENworld themselves can still contribute towards the continuing existence of the site by accepting adverts from the advertisers who will pay.

Our hope is that the majority of ENworld users will either be community supporters (and directly finance the site) or accept adverts (and indirectly finance the site). If too many people decided to take a third route and neither directly finance nor indirectly finance us (by blocking ads), then ENworld could get into a sticky situation that means that everybody loses out and there are sad faces all round.

I know that some sites around the web are stuffed full of horrible, appalling advertising which people don't want to see - but things like adblock plus (and I presume others) make it easy to set exception filters, so if you put @@|http://enworld.org in your adblock plus filters, it would allow adverts to be displayed on enworld (helping to indirectly finance the site) while keeping out the adverts on all the other sites you visit.

So the question visitors have is whether ENworld is worth supporting directly, or indirectly... or not at all.

Cheers

[Michael Morris]

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

Whoops on the website providers part (because that's who to blame).

Is it now? Because the internet, by it's nature, allows more exact tracking of ad delivery and effectiveness and the customers (the advertisers) demand that accountability or they take their business elsewhere. Once again, a demonstration of woeful ignorance about the business which you are criticizing.

Then complain to the adblock creators. Quit flailing at the consumers who are using legitimate tools.

Just because they are readily available doesn't make them legitimate in any sense. Radar detection equipment is readily available despite being downright illegal in several states. You can do a search for and buy script kits to attack web servers and/or steal people's passwords and credit card numbers quite readily as well. Theft is theft. The display of the ad is an implicit part of viewing the content of the site. If you don't like the ads going and finding another site is the ethical and moral thing to do. Denying the website owner the means to fund his website through ad block programs is theft. You cannot logically portray it as anything else.

In general, accusing normal internet users of being "rude" and of being 'thieves' isn't helpful, nor called for.

Yet theft is theft. Theft is also rude. If you don't like the label do not engage in the behaviors that merit the label. If you use an adblock program here, or anywhere else, you are a thief.

[Morrus]

OK, this thread is closing. It's just a personal argument at this point.