"God Bless America"

[Dannyalcatraz]

You know, the song.

I'm not a super-patriot, but I was in scouting, and I'm pretty proud to be an American.

For years, I've groused about people not removing their hats and covering their hearts with their hands (or hats) in respect when the national anthem is played.

Now, we've got people doing exactly that when "God Bless America" is played...and STILL not doing it for the "Star Spangled Banner."

ARGH!

Is there any tradition in your country that drives you nuts when your countrymen screw it up?

[El Mahdi]

Yeah, this has always bugged me also. It's unfortunate, but you'd be surprised how many people in the military also don't do this properly or don't know the proper etiquette. It's quite sad actually. There are actually different etiquettes for indoor and outdoor events that most people don't know. Technically, when indoors, one is supposed to remove their hat (something we only have to do today, in past times wearing one's hat indoors was a serious breach of etiquette), then face the flag and stand respectfully. Putting your hand over your heart is not the proper etiquette for indoor venues, but, common practice has become to do just that. Although technically not proper etiquette, customs are malleable and do change with time. Putting your hand over your heart when indoors seems to have become acceptable in common use.

When outdoors in civilian clothes, protocol is to stand and face the flag (not the singer, if one is used), remove your hat and place your right hand over your heart. In uniform, and not under arms, proper etiquette is to face the flag (or the direction of the music if no flag is visible), stand at attention and salute upon the first notes of the National Anthem (or To the Colors, if it's used instead). One remains standing at attention, without saluting, during the sounding of Retreat or foriegn National Anthems.

On military bases, the national anthem is played before movies (at the base theatre). Correct etiquette during the national anthem is to stand at attention during the anthem (even in civilian clothes). Putting ones hand over your heart is the civilian equivalent of a salute. One does not salute indoors except when rendering an official reporting statement. Other than reporting statements, saluting is only done outside when wearing cover* (the only time cover is worn indoors is when under arms). You'd be surprised how many people in the military get this wrong, and how many actually teach others that putting your hand over one's heart is the correct form. I've even heard some say that's what they were taught in NCO Preperatory School by their instructors!

There are exceptions made at certain times for official events, but the etiquette being used will be stated at the beginning of the event (such as a change of command ceremony being performed in a hangar, it might be stated at the beginning of the ceremony that it will be considered outdoors - even though it's in a hangar - and hats will be worn).


*cover = hat

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm an army brat...you sound like you served.

[El Mahdi]

Retired Air Force, 21 years. Although I'm by no means an expert on customs, courtesies and etiquette. The stuff above is things everyone in the military knows (or should know). There's actually a dedicated office on each base (usually) and a specific career field for the "experts". They are the ones that help set up ceremonies and such and know all of the proper protocols and rules of etiquette. But that career field would have just driven me crazy. There's also a career field for "Historian". Now that's one I would have enjoyed (if I hadn't wanted to fix aircraft that is).

[Dannyalcatraz]

What I meant was that, as an Army brat, I know- or more accurately- knew a lot of that stuff.

But you just kind of rattled it off like you had lived it... as an adult.

And in case nobody's told you this recently, thank you for your service.

[Mathew_Freeman]

See, this is one of those major differences between the UK and the USA.

I completely understand that Americans see it differently, but in all honesty our own National Anthem has always struck me as a boring, dirge-like offence to music and I wouldn't sing along with it if you paid me.

But if it means something to you (and for many people it does) then I'd never look down on anyone prepared to sing loudly and gustily (in tune is optional ) in public, so all power to you.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by Mathew_Freeman

... I completely understand that Americans see it differently, but in all honesty our own National Anthem has always struck me as a boring, dirge-like offence to music and I wouldn't sing along with it if you paid me. ...

Hey now, we stole the melody from your national anthem and used it in our patriotic song "My Country, tis of Thee".

It's an all time classic in America! (And no jokes about us using your hand-me-downs! I'll make the necessary jokes about America around here.)

Of course though, it may have just been due to a lack of originality on our part, or as a subtle snub (we had just finished a war with you guys like 15 years prior don't you know). But, Who really knows?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

Retired Air Force, 21 years. Although I'm by no means an expert on customs, courtesies and etiquette. The stuff above is things everyone in the military knows (or should know). There's actually a dedicated office on each base (usually) and a specific career field for the "experts". They are the ones that help set up ceremonies and such and know all of the proper protocols and rules of etiquette. But that career field would have just driven me crazy. There's also a career field for "Historian". Now that's one I would have enjoyed (if I hadn't wanted to fix aircraft that is).

They expect you to know all of that? I guess it's not that much information...

[Bullgrit]

Something to keep in mind about this, is that some people aren't exposed to these songs/situations very often. For instance, until my oldest son joined the Cub Scouts a couple years ago, it had been literally many years since I last heard or spoke the Pledge of Allegiance.

I can't remember the last time I heard "God Bless America" or the national anthem. (I don't go to sporting events very often.)

After a few or many years, one forgets what one is supposed to do at these moments.

So, set the example, yourself and quickly, so others who may have forgotten the proper respect can see and emulate your actions.

Bullgrit

[Dannyalcatraz]

Really? You haven't heard it on televised baseball games? Hmmm...

But anyway, leading by example is probably a doomed cause. It looks like its the majority habit these days...at least at sporting events.

[Bullgrit]

Really? You haven't heard it on televised baseball games?

I'm not a sports guy. <shrug> And watching baseball, from the stands or on TV, is torture to me ;-)

Bullgrit

[El Mahdi]

Personally, I think the trends away from these types of displays in the common culture (at least in America) are two-fold.

One: Times have changed. People are less concerned with tradition and ceremony. It's viewed as an anachronistic holdover of an older age. It's not that people are less patriotic today, they just feel less of a need to show it or prove it through codified actions. Personally, I feel that a little bit of something has been lost, but times and mores change. That's just the way it is.

Two: I think the other may be that, since WWII, there's been a trend away from displays or hints of Nationalism in many parts of the world (especially Europe, America, and Japan). IMO, the world got a very harsh, first hand view, of the dark side of Nationalism. A view of what can happen when Nationalism is taken to extremes. Now, I'm not saying that Nationalism is inherently bad or good. Nationalism is a thing, just like anything else, that in moderation is just fine. But, perhaps in the aforementioned areas, there's something in our collective psyches that left us a little gun-shy to displays of Nationalism. Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a politics discussion (which we all know is verboten here), or devolve into a psychiatric discussion (which isn't verboten but IMO, is even a worse subject) so I'll just leave it here without any extra analysis. It just is what it is, and my two cents.

[Dannyalcatraz]

While there is some truth to what you say in general, its not a lack of nationalistic display I'm talking about in my OP.

Its a lack of a display when one is traditional- the playing of the national anthem- and adding the omitted one to a mere pop tune (albeit a patriotic one). IOW, its pure confusion.

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

You know, the song.

I'm not a super-patriot, but I was in scouting, and I'm pretty proud to be an American.

For years, I've groused about people not removing their hats and covering their hearts with their hands (or hats) in respect when the national anthem is played.

Now, we've got people doing exactly that when "God Bless America" is played...and STILL not doing it for the "Star Spangled Banner."

ARGH!

Is there any tradition in your country that drives you nuts when your countrymen screw it up?

You think you're irritated? My father's a Vietnam vet and gets really cheesed off about these sorts of things. But I think kids really aren't taught many of these things in school today, and a lot of these patriotic displays haven't been in fashion like they were back in the 50's since at least then end of the Cold War and probably a some time earlier (around the 70's or so).

There are other thoughts I have on the matter, but they'd probably violate the no-politics rule so I will remain silent.

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by Orius

But I think kids really aren't taught many of these things in school today, and a lot of these patriotic displays haven't been in fashion like they were back in the 50's since at least then end of the Cold War and probably a some time earlier (around the 70's or so).

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Orius

You think you're irritated? My father's a Vietnam vet and gets really cheesed off about these sorts of things. But I think kids really aren't taught many of these things in school today, and a lot of these patriotic displays haven't been in fashion like they were back in the 50's since at least then end of the Cold War and probably a some time earlier (around the 70's or so).

Ditto my Dad.

I confess, I had a lot of it in my youth- I'll make 42 in October- after all, I was an Army brat who attended schools on base until I was 12 or so. (AND I was in Scouting). I couldn't say how much indoctrination other kids got up to that point...but when I went to civilian schools in Kansas and Colorado, we said the Pledge daily.

About Scouting. I know that we got a goodly dose of info on proper displays of the flag, how do display/dispose of them, when and how to salute, etc., and I recall meeting my Canadian counterparts at the Cub Scout Olympics in Munich who pretty much got the same kind of indoctrination for their country's symbols...

And I know there are still a fair number of Scouts (active and former) out there.

[nerfherder]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

About Scouting. I know that we got a goodly dose of info on proper displays of the flag, how do display/dispose of them, when and how to salute, etc., and I recall meeting my Canadian counterparts at the Cub Scout Olympics in Munich who pretty much got the same kind of indoctrination for their country's symbols...

And I know there are still a fair number of Scouts (active and former) out there.

Well, in England we had to say the Cub Scout motto every week: "I promise to do my duty, to God and to the Queen, to help other people, and to keep the Cub Scout law".

Saluting, caps on and off, and all of that I only got when in the Air Training Corps.

Most English know the national anthem well enough to sing the first verse, especially at football matches, and doubly especially when playing Germany but that's about it.

YouTube - National anthem of England/UK - FIFA 06

Oh, and it's impressive when performed by a Formula One car...

You Tube

[megamania]

I remember on several occations during school events and the such standing and covering my heart for the national anthem and having other adults stare at me and out of peer pressure they would respect the flag.


funny thing.... peer pressure.....

[megamania]

Originally Posted by frankthedm

Norman Rockwell.... more American than the Flag to many people.


I grew up next to him in his Vermont home. That said, I never met him but did have an art instruction or two from his assistant- mr. Pellum.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

While there is some truth to what you say in general, its not a lack of nationalistic display I'm talking about in my OP.

Its a lack of a display when one is traditional- the playing of the national anthem- and adding the omitted one to a mere pop tune (albeit a patriotic one). IOW, its pure confusion.

Ahhhhh, I see. I kind of took off on a whole other tangent, didnt' I? Oops! Sorry.


Yeah, I have seen that happen. It is kind of wierd and makes absolutely no sense to me either. But that's what some people do. I can't imagine that it was so long ago kids were brought up that way in school, that people would have forgotten what they are supposed to do (I'm only 41 and I remember being taught that in school, at least up into middle school). But it happens anyways. You're right. Absolutely baffling and frustrating.

I'm also surprised at how many people don't know how to properly handle or display the flag. When I first put a flag up at my house my wife just looked at me like I'd grown a third head when I told her how it was supposed to be handled (can't touch the ground, if it's out at night it needs to be illuminated, etc. - or how to properly fold it, although that can be a bit tricky). It bugs the hell out of me to see how many people leave them out at night with no illumination on the flag, or leave them flying when they are ratty and torn (even schools and government buildings!). I keep telling my wife that someday we're going to have a house where I can put up one of those 150' to 200' flag poles, with lighting, and fly a garrison flag 24/7. Just to show everyone how it's done.



On a tangent (only a slight one this time): When I was stationed in Korea, we would have basewide exercises, including chemical exercises, at least once a quarter (sometimes more often). They would usually last about a week, of which 3 to 5 days of it would be spent wearing chem gear. In the winter it's not quite as bad, but wearing chem gear in 90 degree weather is definitely not fun. Anyways, whenever the exercise would end, there would always be an anouncement over the base Giant Voice system (fancy name for a big PA system) declaring "End of Exercise" or "End Ex" and accompanied by Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA".

I don't stand and remove my cap when that song is played, like you may have seen people do, and then ignore the National Anthem like some of those same people do - but I can't help wanting to shout "End Ex" and start peeling off my chem gear every time I hear it. Kind of a Pavlov's Dog thing.