I don't know of too many placed where you can print out a bound copy of a 576-page rulebook in color for that cheap. Add in the high quality of Paizo's books and I think it's worth buying a physical copy of the rules.
As to local gaming shops, if they really want to see PDFs as a threat, then they're already behind the times. If they want to worry about a real threat to their bottom line, they can worry about Amazon.com. I could go on there right now and order the Pathfinder core rules for something like $35.
Near the end of 3.5 when I was still buying WOTC books I'd buy either from Amazon for a huge discount or Borders of an okay discount. I'd NEVER buy WOTC books from my LGS at full price (and for years and years I used to do just that until I got wise.) I'd pick up dice, Paizo Item cards, modeling equipment and the occasional magazine but not game books.
To be fair though, Paizo IS costing the LGS sales, but only because of their subscription service. Ordering directly from them and getting a discount AND the PDF for free is too good to pass up. PDF's help me prep for my games so much easier. But I'm probably in the minority in my desire for PDF versions of my hardcopies.
__________________ I'm thinking you're totally out to lunch on this one. Find another form of foreplay that doesn't involve 3 hours of explanation and a pocket calculator.
Twowolves, you honestly can't see why brick and mortar stores are upset?
Again, you keep assuming that there will be no lost sales due to the parent company selling this? This isn't Amazon which while they (game store owers) hope WOTC would toss over a bridge they understand the reality of.
This $10 PDF is akin to WOTC decidiing to sell MTGO packs not at the MSRP but at pennies (Gencon and GAMA has many "game store owner" panels and trust me, when MTGO was to first go live, there was much complaints/threats from the store owners of WOTC undercutting them at such panels).
Paizo, in all honesty, is the worse fear of any retail outlet. The manufacturer of the product selling the product at a large discount.
There's also another threat of "what about the other guys". If say both White Wolf and WOTC start doing this, I can not imagine the game store owners being happy..
I buy the .pdf., lets say I like it. Oh now I want a hardcopy, do I shell out $50-60? Hell no, I go to staples, where I could make 2-3 color, bound copies of the book and still be spending less than MSRP.
Something wreaks of desperation, not sure what but something.
I can see some people like that, but I'll still want a hard copy. What kind of pricing can you get for color copies? At Staples across the street from where I live, it's $0.49 a color copy per side. At 576 pages plus the covers, it's $283.22. Add $3 for binding, my final price is $285.22 plus tax. Well, at least it's brutal to go that route here in the SF Bay Area.
I can't say how happy this made me as a 3PP pdf and print on demand company supporting the Pathfinder RPG, a core rule book at this price is awesome!
FlGS will get an uptick from folks buying the supporting proudcts (like pathfinder adventure paths, Card Decks, and pathfinder chronicles), they could get an even greater uptick if they support Pathfinder Society Scenarios.
The price point is good for me to get; I wanted to take a look anyway, though. I respect what Paizo has done in the past and while I have no real plans to run any 3.5/Pathfinder games, 1) I still play some and 2) there are always potential ideas to mine.
I haven't had a LGS in years, so its not an issue for me. I preferred to support mine when it was feasible. If I still had one, I would have likely gotten the hardcover, only later (trying to buy a house right now >> getting the PRPG HC).
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
I'm surprised that anyone is surprised. Paizo has always sold cheaply or given away their pdfs. Or they did back when I was a subscriber. What has always been surprising to me is WotC's weird pdf policies....
Near the end of 3.5 when I was still buying WOTC books I'd buy either from Amazon for a huge discount or Borders of an okay discount. I'd NEVER buy WOTC books from my LGS at full price (and for years and years I used to do just that until I got wise.) I'd pick up dice, Paizo Item cards, modeling equipment and the occasional magazine but not game books.
To be fair though, Paizo IS costing the LGS sales, but only because of their subscription service. Ordering directly from them and getting a discount AND the PDF for free is too good to pass up. PDF's help me prep for my games so much easier. But I'm probably in the minority in my desire for PDF versions of my hardcopies.
This is me.
I buy my books from Amazon and the rest from my FLGS. And I prefer PDF over hardcover for DMing, for sure. The Paizo subscription model is pretty awesome.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
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Twowolves, you honestly can't see why brick and mortar stores are upset?
No, I can see why they would be upset, just like I can see why my 2 year old gets upset when I don't let him have a popcicle instead of vegetables.
The brick and mortar stores wouldn't sell many of this book anyway. At $50 a pop, most people would get it from Amazon or some other online store. Are BnM stores mad at ALL PDF sales, or just cheap ones? From what I gather, a lot of BnM stores are already mad at Paizo because of their subscription service (which sells at a discount AND gives free PDFs of the product), so how is that a loss for Paizo anyway? Are newstand owners mad at the internet too? How so those buggywhip salesmen feel about Ford these days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisterH
Again, you keep assuming that there will be no lost sales due to the parent company selling this? This isn't Amazon which while they (game store owers) hope WOTC would toss over a bridge they understand the reality of.
So it's ok for them to just accept it when WotC does something similar with the DDI, and when Amazon does it to everyone, but by gosh, how dare Paizo try to drum up business in the 21st century??!!? Sounds like a bad case of the "I'm entitled" mentality.
And I don't think there will be a significant ammount of lost sales. At all. In fact, I think there will be more, much more business coming down the pike directly attributible to this move. More players = more sales of adventures, cards, dice, sourcebooks, minis, etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisterH
This $10 PDF is akin to WOTC decidiing to sell MTGO packs not at the MSRP but at pennies (Gencon and GAMA has many "game store owner" panels and trust me, when MTGO was to first go live, there was much complaints/threats from the store owners of WOTC undercutting them at such panels).
No, it's not. Not at all. It'd be more like WotC selling a STARTER DECK at pennies on the dollar, then selling boosters at list price. Or free trial downloads of online games. Ask Blizzard how those two week free trial offers hurt their sales. And I fail to understand how online cards for an online game hinders sales of physical product at all anyway. Yeah, you could trade in a virtual set for a physical set, but really, how many of those were handed out? Since you had to collect a whole set (including foils, IIRC) before you could trade in, it wasn't exactly a loss in $$$.
Finally, overseas sales of Paizo products should skyrocket from thsi move. Exchange rates plus shipping is putting overseas sales in a stranglehold, and this move should blow that market wide open. Anyone who is a gamer and not a Brick and Mortar store owner (and one who refuses to accept the reality of doing business in the digital age and adapting accordingly at that) should be thrilled at this, and even smart BnM store owners should realize that this will only drive MORE sales of their product in the end.
I just feel like it bears repeating (although no game shops have complained... it is a good point). We released the Beta pdf for free and the printed book sold out faster than any other product in Paizo history (to the best of my knowledge). Most of those went through distribution (hence game stores).
While there are some that prefer pdfs only for their game needs (and we are happy to give the a break), most gamers I know still prefer a hard copy to read and use at the table.
When Malhavoc was at the top of its game, I was happy to pay $8 to $10 for thier interesting and useful books in PDF. Those were 64 page books, and this is a 500+ page book at the same price point. Sounds good to me.
THe PRPG rules were free (as in beer) at the same time they were selling perfectbound copies of a (350? 400?) page book. The Paizo booth at last year's GenCon was sold out of 1000 copies in one day and one hour, IIRC. And it was well known that the pdf was free. And game stores around the country were sold out of the book within two months or so. (No one in their right mind is taking a PDF that's hundreds of pages long to Kinko's to print, when a bound copy is cheaper than the cost of that. If you can even get them to print it!)
If a retailer cannot sell copies of a well-produced, high-quality, in-demand product to its core audience, then I don't have any advice for them. (Other than to contact some of the FLGS's in Joe Goodman's thread about favorite game stores to see how they do things.)
__________________ What family doesn't have its up and downs?
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Last edited by Eridanis; 26th June 2009 at 08:18 PM..
I buy the .pdf., lets say I like it. Oh now I want a hardcopy, do I shell out $50-60? Hell no, I go to staples, where I could make 2-3 color, bound copies of the book and still be spending less than MSRP.
I defy you to name that Staples. Where is it? I want to call them.
To do what you assert, the Staples in question would need to charge only 3˘ per color print. There isn't a Staples on Earth that charges that little to do a color print of a PDF. You can't even get black and white prints for that price!
And at the price of 3˘ per copy, they'll need to do the collating & binding for free.
Buying the actual book at a FLGS is far cheaper than getting the PDF and printing it out.
What does the PRPG pdf pricing have to do with FLGSs? IMO, it may have an impact if buyers only consider price as their sole reason to buy/not buy a product.
Edit: Just spoke with my FLGS. Yeah, they definitely reacted to the $9.99 news. $40 bucks is hard to ignore.
Last edited by joela; 26th June 2009 at 09:39 PM..
I buy the .pdf., lets say I like it. Oh now I want a hardcopy, do I shell out $50-60? Hell no, I go to staples, where I could make 2-3 color, bound copies of the book and still be spending less than MSRP.
Something wreaks of desperation, not sure what but something.
You can't even get Kinkos to print the Beta for less than 40 bucks, so we feel that the Core Rulebook print edition has a very good price.
I think the desperation thing is probably projection.
The price for the pdf is unbelievable, the subscription policy (free pdf with the book) is great, and even the $50 price tag on a 570 page color hard cover rule book is more than reasonable.
Kudo's to Erik, Lisa and the rest of the Paizo crew.
__________________ Just be thankful I'm not a twin.
Yeah Kudos to you guys, Erik. This is how the PDF/print thing is supposed to go. Many will buy both. Like me probably, if I can find somewhere in NZ that stock Paizo... although there is always Amazon
I will definitely buy the PDF and see whether I am going to play a campaign after my next 4E campaign.
Just a question as well for Erik or the other Paizo watchers. At what point will the subscription be PFRPG modified? I know it is compatible with 3.5 but there are changes. At launch, at the next AP start, before the main book launch with the rules already pretty much fixed...?
__________________
Last edited by mach1.9pants; 26th June 2009 at 10:18 PM..
OK, I really have no interest in Pathfinder, but I have to give them major kudos. THIS is how you fight piracy... with reasonable prices. Hopefully this will lead to fans buying the hardcover and the PDF, rather then buying the hardcover and pirating the pdf.
$10 says you will still see it pirated. At the page count, I want a hardback anyhow.
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