I likely won't buy it - but this is excellent for consumers. More companies should move towards joint digital and non-digital distribution of their content, IMO.
I just feel like it bears repeating (although no game shops have complained... it is a good point). We released the Beta pdf for free and the printed book sold out faster than any other product in Paizo history (to the best of my knowledge). Most of those went through distribution (hence game stores).
While there are some that prefer pdfs only for their game needs (and we are happy to give the a break), most gamers I know still prefer a hard copy to read and use at the table.
Just thought I would reiterate that...
Rational brick & mortar store owners with good business sense will realize that the $9.99 price of the Pathfinder core book will actually help increase their sales of said book and probably other Pathfinder products as well. A wise store owner would stock up on copies of the core book and accessories.
However, I have met very few store owners with much of a business sense, yet plenty of nerdrage at perceived injustices.
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
$10 says you will still see it pirated. At the page count, I want a hardback anyhow.
Yeah, it will still be pirated, but I think by fewer people. Granted a certain segment of "pirates" does it simply because they want everything free, but I think another segment does it simply because they think the price point is too high. I think that segment of the "piracy" going on will actually pay for this PDF simply because, for once, it is a fair price point.
As for LGS', I have no sympathy for them. They were going out of business in droves before PAizo started doing their PDF's deals, and ALL solid evidence suggests that PDF sales are nothing in comparison to print copies of the same product. So Paizo isn't putting anyone out of business with their PDF deals, online discounters and bad LGS business practices are doing it just fine.
Besides, my LGS cries about Paizo, and even Goodman, but he doesn't even stock them in the first place. He claims he wouldn't be able to sell them if he did. Right. He didn't sell ME any because he didn't have them, so I ordered from Amazon or Paizo. He lost those sales, not Paizo, or even Amazon. He did it all on his lonesome.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Just a question as well for Erik or the other Paizo watchers. At what point will the subscription be PFRPG modified? I know it is compatible with 3.5 but there are changes. At launch, at the next AP start, before the main book launch with the rules already pretty much fixed...?
I _think_ I understand your question. Everything switches over to PFRPG in August, which is when we coincidentally launch the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, which is the first AP to use the final PFRPG rules.
Pretty much everything comes out the first day of Gen Con. Of course, you can pretty easily use older 3.5 stuff (published by Paizo or otherwise) with the PFRPG with simple "on the fly" conversions, as many folks are already doing.
Rational brick & mortar store owners with good business sense will realize that the $9.99 price of the Pathfinder core book will actually help increase their sales of said book and probably other Pathfinder products as well. A wise store owner would stock up on copies of the core book and accessories.
However, I have met very few store owners with much of a business sense, yet plenty of nerdrage at perceived injustices.
That only works if the other Pathfinder products and accessories are some or all of the following:
1. Better suited to hard copy purchases instead of further electronic copy purchases,
2. Not significantly cheaper in electronic copy than in hard copy, or
3. Not conveniently purchased online by mail order.
Also, this might lead people to Pathfinder Subscriptions in a way that trades off negatively with game store sales, or it might trade off with whatever game the customer might otherwise be playing in a way that results in fewer dollars spent at the gaming store.
I don't begrudge Paizo this in ANY WAY. See post 36 for reference where I detail, extensively, why not. I'm just highly skeptical that this has an upside for game stores. It might, maybe, possibly, have an upside for sales of certain Paizo products at game stores, but that doesn't mean its a blessing overall.
That only works if the other Pathfinder products and accessories are some or all of the following:
1. Better suited to hard copy purchases instead of further electronic copy purchases,
All books are better suited to hardcopy purchases. There's a reason PDFs haven't supplanted (or even dented) book sales: for all the convenience of pdfs, most people prefer real books.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadfan
2. Not significantly cheaper in electronic copy than in hard copy, or
If someone prefers electronic, the only way to make them buy another format is to prohibitively price the electronic version. I think when you look at the number of people that were not going to play the game, but will pick it up out of curiosity because it's affordable, you'll find that the segment that actually starts buying product outnumbers the segment that gave up on a physical product for an electronic one for price issues. Who does that anyway? Who, having made up their mind to buy a book, decides to get an electronic version instead just because the price is $15 less than most others would price their PDF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadfan
3. Not conveniently purchased online by mail order.
Almost every book is conveniently discounted on Amazon, which is the real problem for the FLGS.
I honestly don't know why I should care much about whether or not this has an effect on (F)LGSs's. In my mind, the center of the gaming universe has moved far away from them already. Honestly, the effect of a cheap PDF compared to the effect of online sales in general (either at Amazon or Paizo's own site) is likely minimal at best.
As far as I'm concerned, getting a complete rulebook in PDF form for $10 is awesome. I won't buy it* - but others will, and it's a good marketing strategy. It's expensive enough to give perceived value to it (something you don't necessarily get with a free product), but cheap enough that it's easily approachable.
I also think it's a good alternative for players. I'm a fan of the split DM and Player Books model of RPGs, since I don't want my players to spend their cash on stuff only I need. But this is a low-price alternative to a full book, so they can just print the important sections they need.
I'm not exactly Paizo's biggest cheerleader, and I haven't been their customer for a few years now, but this is purely good news for their customers and savvy business sense, as far as I'm concerned. (Then again, I think the DDI is great news and savvy business sense, too, and for similar reasons - so depending on your own opinions, my perspective could be totally meaningless!)
-O
* There's a strong chance I won't buy Pathfinder at all, but if I do, it will be in book form like I've been doing for 25+ years. I don't like screen reading for anything longer than an article. It's still steep for a game I likely won't play and already own most of the rules for, but I've spent more on other games I've never played!
Just a question as well for Erik or the other Paizo watchers. At what point will the subscription be PFRPG modified? I know it is compatible with 3.5 but there are changes. At launch, at the next AP start, before the main book launch with the rules already pretty much fixed...?
AP 5 launching in August is PFRPG. I'd imagine that all the other lines will follow suit immediately as well.
__________________ "Mr. Prince, would you like to know the most significant event in the history of freedom?"
"The American revolution?"
"A defensible choice, a close second even, but not mine. I would choose the moment when the Roman plebians required the patricians to write down the twelve tablets of the law and put them where everyone could see them—and thereby proclaimed the law supreme over the politicians. The rule of law is the essence of freedom."
—Conversation between Prince Lysander and Colonel Falkenberg, The Prince
I think it is the simple realization by Paizo and its fans that they don't really NEED the gamestore. Basically, the health of the game store should not be a factor in pricing etc.
Have to love your hyperbole here. Paizo sales alot of stuff though stores. Selling a cheap pdf is all likly hood will sell more of everything. Sure not everyone will buy the core book, but people will buy mini's paints, flip mats, cards, AP's mods and so on.
If I had a LGS I would buy the core book there, I have zero interest in driving 120 odd miles to the nearest one however. I do have a bookstore 22 miles out that might...might order me the book if I pester them long enough.
So no I have very little sympathy for folks that DO NOT want my money
__________________ Remember kids whisky will not put out flaming mages ,but it will confuse the deathknight
"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
Thank you Gary Gygax, for everything.
"Rock on, Paizo, for you rock mightily".- dragonlordofpoondari
Lisa Stevens Paizo's Ceo said the fallowing on their boards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Stevens
It took me a while to understand the necessity of pricing the PDF at the lower price. And I firmly believe that this won't harm a brick and mortar retailer one iota. Why? Because gamers fall into two camps: those like you and I who love to have dead-tree versions of our games and those who are strictly in the digital realm. Sure, there are folks who like the ability to have both versions (and our subscription practices are aimed at them), but they are mainly dead-tree lovers. Folks who will only buy a PDF were never a customer of the dead-tree version. Many of those folks would have downloaded a free digital version from one of the many pirate websites. Some of them probably still will. But by keeping the PDF price low, it encourages people to check out the PDF legally and because the price is low enough, they are more likely to go the legal route than pirating the digital copy. Also, it is a great way for a customer to preview the game and see if they like it. If they do, I bet that they will end up buying a print copy somewhere, whether it is at a FLGS or online. Without the inexpensive PDF, we probably never would have had the chance to sell a print copy to that person.
Another thing to think about is that the game is open content. Within a very short amount of time of release, I expect the Pathfinder RPG rules to be available for free on various wiki pages. So you can basically play the PFRPG and never pay a penny. With the inexpensive PDF, you might just decide to get the much prettier version instead of just using the wiki. That makes the Pathfinder Core Rulebook a weird duck in regards to the PDFs and pricing and such. There is definitely a big value to the print verson of the core rulebook. Unless you own your own printing facility or can run off high-def copies at work, it is cheaper to buy the print book than to buy the PDF and print it off yourself. Trust me, we needed some early copies of the book ourselves and the B&W printings were more expensive than the core rulebook MSRP.
I have to admit that this whole low-pricing scheme for the core rulebook is a bit of an experiment. My feeling is that it will feed the base of people who play the PFRPG and drive many of them to buy the print version somewhere. Also, I think we will see less pirated copies when the PDF is reasonably priced. Only time will tell whether this was a good move or not, but my gut tells me that it is.
Whew, that was a lot of typing. Thoughts?
-Lisa
__________________ Remember kids whisky will not put out flaming mages ,but it will confuse the deathknight
"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
Thank you Gary Gygax, for everything.
"Rock on, Paizo, for you rock mightily".- dragonlordofpoondari
I know for a fact that Lisa's divisions of gamers into two camps, the "love to have dead-tree versions" camp and the "strictly in the digital realm" camp, misses at least a few people. I know this because I, personally, fall into camp three: people who sometimes buy electronic and sometimes buy hardcopy, depending on the item in question and the relative price. For example, if an RPG book I wanted to buy were available for $40 in hardcopy, and $40 for electronic, I'd buy hardcopy. But if it were $40 for hardcopy and $20 for electronic, I'm not sure which I'd buy. And if it were $40 for hardcopy and $10 for electronic, I'd definitely buy electronic.
Now its possible that I am a total freak of nature and possibly not even human. After all, I generally prefer books but never bought the core 3e books because the SRD is free- a format decision that Lisa, and this thread apparently, believe shouldn't be possible. So maybe I'm some sort of strange, alien being who can't understand how people can deny the relevancy of price point for format choice because my extra terrestrial brain lacks the human psychology that would be necessary for me to understand. It is possible that REAL homo sapiens make their purchases based purely on format concerns, without ever considering choosing one format over another based on issues like cost. That's possible. Economics says its not, but whatever. Economics, schmeconomics.
I just doubt it. A lot.
(Let me reiterate, again, so I don't get flamed, that I think its great that Paizo offers multiple formats of their products at multiple price points based on format choice. As someone who considers different formats depending on issues like price, multiple formats at varying price points is a wonderful, wonderful thing.)
Now its possible that I am a total freak of nature and possibly not even human. After all, I generally prefer books but never bought the core 3e books because the SRD is free- a format decision that Lisa, and this thread apparently, believe shouldn't be possible.
I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying Lisa doesn't think an SRD should be free? She says in her quote above that she expects several Pathfinder wikis to spring up soon after launch, and she said nothing about trying to shut them down, ergo she does NOT in fact have a problem with a "free SRD" (-ish) document.
I know for a fact that Lisa's divisions of gamers into two camps, the "love to have dead-tree versions" camp and the "strictly in the digital realm" camp, misses at least a few people. I know this because I, personally, fall into camp three: people who sometimes buy electronic and sometimes buy hardcopy, depending on the item in question and the relative price. For example, if an RPG book I wanted to buy were available for $40 in hardcopy, and $40 for electronic, I'd buy hardcopy. But if it were $40 for hardcopy and $20 for electronic, I'm not sure which I'd buy. And if it were $40 for hardcopy and $10 for electronic, I'd definitely buy electronic.
Yup, that's me, too. I will buy the pdf-version of the rules although I will probably not play with them. Since the price is so low (about 7€, who can say no to that?) I will look at the book and see how it turned out.
Generally, I think this is a smart move, too. After all, the new rules version by Paizo might turn into the new standard of all those who still want to play 3.x. And Paizo can use that system for free, thanks to the OGL and WotC. I am sure the people at Paizo still thank WotC every day for the OGL. And the GSL, because it made their choice to stay with 3.x much easier after seeing the full development of the edition war.
If the new rules really take off, Paizo might be able to establish themselves as THE competitor to WotC. I could be wrong about that, though, sizewise.
I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying Lisa doesn't think an SRD should be free? She says in her quote above that she expects several Pathfinder wikis to spring up soon after launch, and she said nothing about trying to shut them down, ergo she does NOT in fact have a problem with a "free SRD" (-ish) document.
No, I'm not saying that. You totally misunderstood my post. Read it again.
The thing that shouldn't be possible, according to her, is for me to weigh the positive of hardcopy versus the negative of higher price, and make my decision based on a balancing act between the two. Her dichotomy doesn't allow for people tho choose one format over the other based on price.
That's the entire point of her post, and I think its wrong.
She is correct about the rules being free anyway. I kept thinking that reading this thread. I'll try that route to try the game, and never get the PDF. If I find myself playing a lot, I'll consider buying the book.
well to be fair Lisa was repleying to another poster's points. I did not include his post, my mistake
__________________ Remember kids whisky will not put out flaming mages ,but it will confuse the deathknight
"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru
Thank you Gary Gygax, for everything.
"Rock on, Paizo, for you rock mightily".- dragonlordofpoondari
I'm sure this will irritate some game stores, and I'm sure we'll hear about it, on the internet.
I'm also sure that I, for one, couldn't care less.
Let me tell you a little story:
This past April, at the GAMA Trade Show in Las Vegas, immediately following the whole WOTC pulls PDFs/Marcus King/Green Ronin spat, I ran a free seminar, entitled "Games Publishing and Retail for the New Media."
The stated purpose of the seminar was to present methods by which *everyone*, publisher and retailer alike, could make money via the changing new media paradigm in this industry.
It was scheduled in the space in between two WOTC seminars, detailing their release plans for MTG and D&D. Scheduled in the same room, in fact -- so the only effort that retailers would need to undertake was: Stay in their seats.
We had ONE (count 'em: 1) retailer attend.
The retailers attending GTS are supposed to be some of the best in the country, and even they couldn't be arsed to learn about how to make money from PDF sales and other forms of electronic delivery.
If they represent the best, what do you think the majority of the (let's be honest -- pitifully few) remaining retailers are like?
It's like the old saying -- except in this case, not only will the horses not drink, but they can't even be led to water.
So, really -- at this point, who cares what they think about PDFs? Most are going to stick to running their "Android's Dungeon" clubhouses until they inevitably go under, still complaining about how they were left behind by changes in the marketplace... Changes in which they've had every opportunity to take part, but ignored.
Now its possible that I am a total freak of nature and possibly not even human. After all, I generally prefer books but never bought the core 3e books because the SRD is free- a format decision that Lisa, and this thread apparently, believe shouldn't be possible.
I don't think that it's that you don't exist, it's that you are not a part of a statistically significant minority.
Thoughts?
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