Have to love your hyperbole here. Paizo sales alot of stuff though stores.
My local comic shop / FLGS today (Foundations Edge, Raleigh NC), was chatting with the owner, and according to him, he's got the same number of people with standing orders for Pathfinder material as he does for 4e books. So at least locally with me, PF is doing rather well in stores.
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As a European I was torn between buying one from Paizo (with shipping costing the same as the book) or waiting a month to se if my LGS got a copy. I'd reserve one but they sell reserved stuff to their Warhammer buddies if they ask in Eldar anyway.
With the subscription IŽll get the pdf on the first day and can flip through it til the big book gets here. I'll also mail it to my group for discussion purposes. Assuming my group likes it they'll all buy their own pdfs, and each order a hardcopy from the LGS - that's 5 sales for paizo and 5 for the local shop which he wouldn't have if I hadn't technically pirated the pdf to my mates and suggest changing from 3.5 to PFRPG. And WOTC doesn't believe such things hapen.
The cheap pdf will get my stingy Dutch friends all positive about PF even before they peek inside. Then they will each buy a hardback assuming they like their peek. Chances - 90%, they're itching to buy books but not big 4e fans.
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The thing that shouldn't be possible, according to her, is for me to weigh the positive of hardcopy versus the negative of higher price, and make my decision based on a balancing act between the two. Her dichotomy doesn't allow for people tho choose one format over the other based on price.
That's the entire point of her post, and I think its wrong.
Actually, I think the entire point of her post is that the two markets she described are the only two that matter. You unusual choice will not be mirrored by enough people to even factor it into her thinking. You have no economic impact. It sucks, but hey, them's the brakes. When I design Web sites, I'm usually given a mandate to "cater to the top browsers" and anyone using something crappy, such as IE 4 or Netscape 6, can suck it. Will they lose customers over such a decision? Yep. Like, one. And the cost to cater to that one customer is too high to be worth it.
Actually, I think the entire point of her post is that the two markets she described are the only two that matter. You unusual choice will not be mirrored by enough people to even factor it into her thinking. You have no economic impact. It sucks, but hey, them's the brakes. When I design Web sites, I'm usually given a mandate to "cater to the top browsers" and anyone using something crappy, such as IE 4 or Netscape 6, can suck it. Will they lose customers over such a decision? Yep. Like, one. And the cost to cater to that one customer is too high to be worth it.
No. No, no, no.
No.
What I'm objecting to is the idea that it even makes sense to treat these as discrete demographics, like users of a particular web browser. They're not. This is an economic decision about the convenience of your preferred format versus monetary savings obtained by using a different format. It is not something where you are predestined to be either one or the other. Analogies based on this logic are simply inapplicable.
Lets say that A is the cost of an electronic copy, and B is the cost of a hardcopy. A<B. Right?
She's saying that the people who like hardcopy value it at an amount greater than B-A, or at the very least, the amount of people who prefer hardcopy but value it at less than B-A are statistically insignificant. In this case, B is $49.99, and A is $9.99. B-A is $40. She is saying people who prefer hardcopy, but would prefer to save $40 even more, are statistically insignificant. She is also saying, or at least seems to be saying by implication, that the number of people who would prefer electronic copy but would not be willing to pay $40 more for it is insignificant.
I find that unlikely on both accounts. I guess I could be wrong, but I find it unlikely. I think price points factor into people's decisions.
The thing that shouldn't be possible, according to her, is for me to weigh the positive of hardcopy versus the negative of higher price, and make my decision based on a balancing act between the two. Her dichotomy doesn't allow for people tho choose one format over the other based on price.
I don't think that Lisa believes this to be true.
The simple fact is that we are so confident in the quality of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook that we believe the large majority of "check it out and see at the cheaper price" customers will be convinced to buy the hardcover and lots of our other products after getting a look at (and perhaps even using) the PDF.
I'm certain she did not mean to overlook this audience cohort, even if she did not specifically call attention to it in her post.
Print copies of Paizo's FREE stuff still fetches solid sales on Ebay - a measerly 16-page adventure they gave away freely on FreeRPGDay fetches ten dollars
And I've siad it before, other than a few random reasons (like you don't live in the US) I don't see why anyone would ever buy any Paizo stuff from a LGS. And judging from the back copies of Paizo product on my LGS's shelves, Pathfinders not selling to well... but then they did not even know about Free RPG day... so not like they are a good judge ; )
Keep in mind, I'm playing devil's advocate here....
The whole "PDFs can be a great/horrible thing for retailers" is an assumption that I personally have no stake in.
We're basically an echo chamber here since I suspect that enworld is slanted heavily towards PDF wanting consumers/slightly adverse to dead tree versions.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, according to Erik's post right after yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Mona
The simple fact is that we are so confident in the quality of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook that we believe the large majority of "check it out and see at the cheaper price" customers will be convinced to buy the hardcover and lots of our other products after getting a look at (and perhaps even using) the PDF.
He worded it nicely; I worded it in the most brutal and dismissive fashion possible. However, they both boil down to the same thing -- your market segment isn't statistically significant. You or people like you will be moved into another segment.
Of course, Erik will probably think I'm a jerk for using his very PC text to defend my very blunt text, but people have called me that for a long time. I can handle it. The bottom line is that they care about the market that buys both and they priced for it, just as Lisa said. /me shrugs. There is nothing new under the sun.
EDIT: perhaps the reason I am fine with this state of affairs is that I am exactly the market they are claiming. I intended to have nothing to do with Pathfinder until this $9.99 price point, and now that they've "caught" me, I'll likely buy some hard cover books too.
We're basically an echo chamber here since I suspect that enworld is slanted heavily towards PDF wanting consumers/slightly adverse to dead tree versions.
I know that I am one who will buy a physical book (I am not fond of the term "dead tree version") over a pdf just about every time. Judging from what I have seen when this topic crops up, I am not the only one. I prefer to curl up on the couch and read my gaming books, or take them with me and read in the car, etc. I can't do that with my pdfs, as I have no laptop or netbook to do it. Printing a pdf now that I am not working in my old office is out of the question, so that would leave me sitting at my desk to read and use it.
Now, that's not to say that I am not tempted by the $10 pdf. I may save some cash to get it, or have someone get it for me. Being unemployed, I cannot afford to get the physical book, much as I would prefer it. So, I do not think that the ENWorld populace is as pdf slanted as you might think. I could be wrong, but I do not think so this time.
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I'm interested to hear why you think EN World users would be "slightly averse" to print editions of products? That's certainly not my assumption.
Enworld strikes me as more PDF-friendly than say posters on rpg.net or WOTC. If given a choice between a PDF and a hardback, the number of PDF buyers will be closer to half and half among enworld which is higher than what I expect on say a general science fiction board.
re: MTGO and pricing
MTGO actually gives you a free starter deck when you purchase it (not sure if this has changed)
re: Game stores
There was another thread where we guessed how long game stores would be around. Still believe that as long as the game store owners provide a service that can't be matched over the internet, they will thrive but I do think simply saying "to hell with them" as this thread has done is NOT a good thing for the longterm health of the industry...
We're basically an echo chamber here since I suspect that enworld is slanted heavily towards PDF wanting consumers/slightly adverse to dead tree versions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Mona
I'm interested to hear why you think EN World users would be "slightly averse" to print editions of products? That's certainly not my assumption.
I have not purchased any PDFs yet, and will most likely not be doing so in the near future. I don't subscribe to digital services like DDI either.
I'm strictly dead-tree print books when it comes to tabletop pen and paper RPGs.
It probably isn't a good sign that it was that easy to guess.
I read your post and immediately thought "Guardtower" as well. Crappy service and it smells like unwashed bodies and cat piss. I would walk out of that store with my eyes watering and my lungs full of gunk.
I actually watched a person walk from a game table, pick up a book off the shelf, and take it back to the table. He browsed the book, looking for a rule germane to the game he was playing, while eating a piece of pizza. When he was done, he walked the book back to the shelf, the cover was spotted in grease.
I came to the realization at one point that I could walk out with half the store in my pockets and he wouldn't notice. I would never do that. But it was amazing how little they really watch their stock.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, according to Erik's post right after yours:
He worded it nicely; I worded it in the most brutal and dismissive fashion possible. However, they both boil down to the same thing -- your market segment isn't statistically significant. You or people like you will be moved into another segment.
Of course, Erik will probably think I'm a jerk for using his very PC text to defend my very blunt text, but I'm OK being the jerk. The bottom line is that they care about the market that buys both and they priced for it, just as Lisa said. /me shrugs. There is nothing new under the sun.
EDIT: perhaps the reason I am fine with this state of affairs is that I am exactly the market they are claiming. I intended to have nothing to do with Pathfinder until this $9.99 price point, and now that they've "caught" me, I'll likely buy some hard cover books too.
Wow.
Alright, lets do this slowly.
1. EM makes the argument that Lisa did not mean to disparage or ignore the demographic that will purchase pdfs and not hardcopies if the price point for a pdf is right for pdf, and which will purchase hardcopy if the price point is wrong for pdf. He's misreading her, of course, basic literacy and a reading of Lisa's post clearly show that she's attempting to divide customers into two categories of format preference, and to argue that they don't overlap based on price. Her entire argument about the effect of inexpensive pdfs on gamings tores fails if there's a meaningful group of people who do in fact price shop formats.
2. You misread EM's post to say that the price shopping demographic is insignificant. He doesn't say that at all. He just says that he's sure that Lisa didn't mean to overlook that demographic. He is perhaps misreading me as someone who feels insulted... I'm not, I'm just an internet pedant who doesn't believe for a moment that pricing is irrelevant to format choices. Anyways, he doesn't say the things you apparently believe he says. I'm really not sure how you misread him since he only wrote three sentences.
So... yeah. I think Lisa is wrong. EM misreads Lisa. You misread EM.
I don't know why this is hard for people. Of course cheap pdfs hurt stores that sell more expensive hardcopy. An alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores. Cheap, convenient alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores more. This shouldn't be controversial.
For the record, again, since I'm not sure people are entirely grasping this, I really, really, genuinely do not have a problem with this. I do not consider gaming stores to be some sort of ethical cause that we are obligated to support. I do not think that offering consumers a desirable alternative to purchases through brick and mortar stores is somehow wrong. On the contrary, I think it is a very positive thing.
I just don't feel the need to make up rationalizations or crazy arguments to the effect that one's preference in RPG format is somehow a 0% elasticity good just so you can reach the counter intuitive conclusion that cheap alternatives don't trade off with existing choices.
At $9.99 I could see buying a copy. I can't imagine going back to 3e but at that price point I can at least take a look. Who knows? If it really "wows" me, I might pick up the hardcover.
Despite being a 4e GM, I am big fan of other Paizo material. Their fluff is fantastic. So, at the very least, they deserve a perusal from me. Perhaps I will find some rules material that will inspire house rules/hombrew rules in my 4e game.
Last edited by alleynbard; 27th June 2009 at 04:32 AM..
So... yeah. I think Lisa is wrong. EM misreads Lisa. You misread EM.
/me sighs.
I know that whenever we get to a point in a discussion where one person is claiming everyone else "just doesn't get it" and how it's so obvious and "why is this so hard for you" -- as if everyone else is dense... well, I know the conversation is over. So, thanks for the chat.
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