/me sighs.
I know that whenever we get to a point in a discussion where one person is claiming everyone else "just doesn't get it" and how it's so obvious and "why is this so hard for you" -- as if everyone else is dense... well, I know the conversation is over. So, thanks for the chat.
Very mature of you, aboyd.
And I'd like to applaud everyone in this thread, everyone's been level-headed on all sides of the discussion.
I don't know why this is hard for people. Of course cheap pdfs hurt stores that sell more expensive hardcopy.
We get it - you're just wrong.
Admin here. Remember that part where I said it's fine to disagree with people but don't be a jerk when you're doing so? That part? Yeah -- you forgot, and you really need to remember. Ping me if this is in any way unclear. ~ Piratecat
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Last edited by Piratecat; 27th June 2009 at 04:03 PM..
I don't know why this is hard for people. Of course cheap pdfs hurt stores that sell more expensive hardcopy. An alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores. Cheap, convenient alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores more. This shouldn't be controversial.
I'll raise my hand, because I guess it's hard for me.
Is there any evidence that this is actually the case? I don't think you can compare it to something like music, where (at this point in history) the digital product is 98% identical to the physical product. This is a very different market, and I'm not really buying that the two formats are essentially interchangeable. "Of course it is" doesn't cut it for me, evidence-wise.
I mean, I know game store owners have complained - and will continue to complain - that PDFs are eroding their sales, but frankly game store owners say a lot of things, some more reasonable than others.
Yes, I know you don't have a horse in this race - I don't either, and I don't know it would matter if I did - but my skeptic sense is seriously tingling.
I'll raise my hand, because I guess it's hard for me.
Is there any evidence that this is actually the case? I don't think you can compare it to something like music, where (at this point in history) the digital product is 98% identical to the physical product. This is a very different market, and I'm not really buying that the two formats are essentially interchangeable. "Of course it is" doesn't cut it for me, evidence-wise.
I mean, I know game store owners have complained - and will continue to complain - that PDFs are eroding their sales, but frankly game store owners say a lot of things, some more reasonable than others.
Yes, I know you don't have a horse in this race - I don't either, and I don't know it would matter if I did - but my skeptic sense is seriously tingling.
-O
Considering that both WOTC, and Goodman, have said that PDF sales have hardly any effect on their profits, I would say that for those who listen to such information know that PDF's cause no measurable effect on the sales of any LGS. None that an LGS can prove, at least. They can certainly claim whatever they wish, though.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
So... yeah. I think Lisa is wrong. EM misreads Lisa. You misread EM.
You know you could just as easily be misreading her intent you know. Eric knows her a lot better. Not to mention you could be wrong as well. I am not saying you are or you are not. But your posting smacks of arrogance like you are the only one that gets it and anyone that doesn't is dellusional. Just saying, personally from seeing Lisa post before I am willing to give her a grain of salt and take what she said in the spirit of the comment aka like what Eric said, until I see a reason to take it otherwise.
The internet lacks tone of voice and body language and makes things much easier to misunderstand.
__________________ Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
I really do think this is an amazingly smart move. They're giving out the PDFs for free to subscribers anyway, which means that free copes are going to be up on torrent sites lightning quick. There will be those that download it for free, but this way they can tap into those that are willing to pay a reasonable price. Some of those people, who clearly wouldn't have bought the hardcover before, now will.
That's the iTunes strategy for RPGs, people. It will help sell books in the stores as well as to Paizo directly. I wish other game companies would have been so smart.
This is what I was thinking
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrohd
Smart move by Paizo, maybe now people will buy it instead of pirating it a week or two after release.
I don't know why this is hard for people. Of course cheap pdfs hurt stores that sell more expensive hardcopy. An alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores. Cheap, convenient alternatives to purchase in stores hurts stores more. This shouldn't be controversial.
Considering that the side saying this hurts stores has no evidence to support it, and the other side has the statements regarding the volume of ebook versus paper sales and the example of Baen Books who gives massive amounts of their catalog away for free as ebooks and sells the same ebooks at the same for less then the paperback, and gets higher sales for those titles in both electronic and paper then ones only available in paper. Jim Baen said this many times, and Eric Flint's said it many times. Heck, Flint gives everything he writes away for free after a few months and still makes royalties on both electronic and paper versions.
As for you not fitting neatly into Lisa's rhetorical generalization, so? It was a generalization.
__________________ We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
Never confuse movement with action. - Ernest Hemingway
Great pricing decision - hopefully it'll give more people a chance to try out the PF rules.
I don't think this specific pricing decision hurts LGS sales - but I suspect the Paizo subscription service does however.
I subscribe to all the Pathfinder lines direct - I'd much rather give 100% of my gaming money to the company producing the content (and get a free PDF of every book I buy) than pay a distributor and LGS to sell me the same book (without a PDF) a month later than I get it from Paizo.
LGS's need to evolve if they are to survive - mines OK, not particularly a FLGS but OK, but they don't offer any sort of value added service that is of any use or interest to me so I don't shop there. Retailers need to face facts - and a key one is the internet.
__________________ "You should never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die"
$10 is too good to pass. I also have the hardcover pre-ordered from Amazon (my FLGS doesn't stock D&D-related 3PP books at all, this is a tiny market).
WOW! Paizo in one easy move has created tons of free marketing for themselves, given people the ability to try their product at a low price making it more attractive and has offered a reasonable alternative to those who would pirate the PDF and place it up at torrent site for free. Now I am sure there are people who will pirate it any way, but they were never going to be customers so Paizo really loses nothing. Excellent business strategy and a nice thing to do for your fans. Pay attention WOTC, that is a great way to turn fans of your product into true believers willing to spend the message to others. Now they have made me rethink some ideas I might do. Excellent as always Paizo and I can't wait to support your products as a 3PP in August.
Personally I couldnt care less how this impacts my LGS. I go there for Dice primarily (not very often either) and maybe a back up hardcopy of something that I dont feel like ordering and waiting for.
Usually Hardcopies of anything I get through Paizo because I want to support them. Period. I love the way they handle their business and their customers/fans. If theres any product im interested in, Id rather buy it directly through them even if I have to pay a tad more. Maybe im crazy, but they get my support regardless.
As per the "omg, save the environment" argument.... I still prefer actual physical copies and have already pre-ordered. The Free PDF version is a nice bonus though.
I shop at a very reliable and well stocked Gamestore. I know how much this PDF at $10 is going to kill them... 0%. I am sure the people that want a hardcopy are going to go there and buy it. Even if they do not, my gamestore's primary focus is comics. They are well stocked on games, and keep current with the new releases, but comics keeps them in business so they can order things like Pathfinder.
I am OK with this. Good job. Unfortunately I am too into books to take advantage of this.
I pretty much forego subscriptions from Paizo, so I can buy it from my gamestore. I still get everything just about a week later. Usually I will only buy the PDF if I need something quick like AP #2's Desna write up.
Considering that the side saying this hurts stores has no evidence to support it
It would be nearly impossible for people on that side to actually have that evidence, not because it does not exist but because the LGS are so dispersed and highly varied.
This is all about market segmentation; you sell your product to different groups depending on what they are willing to pay. Some people are willing to pay $10 and some are willing to pay $60. If you develop a product that can meet both groups’ needs and find a way to sell to them at the two price points you can efficiently extract the most amount of money from your market. This is a good thing.
But the real world does not always follow economic theory or there would be no cross-over and no effect on the stores. In this case we really have 3 or 4 groups not two, one group that would never pay $60 for the book but wants it (no loss to the LGS), one group that wants the book and will pay $60 (no loss unless they buy it online), one group that really wants the book but can’t afford it at $60 but will make due at the $10 price (possible loss), and one group that can afford it but is not sure they really want it (possible loss). Now I am not saying that 3rd and 4th groups are a huge number… but it is a number, and they will buy the $10 instead of saving money to buy the $60 one. And to say this has no effect is ignoring reality, it does, just very minor.
At $9.99 I could see buying a copy. I can't imagine going back to 3e but at that price point I can at least take a look. Who knows? If it really "wows" me, I might pick up the hardcover.
And this - right here - is why I think this move is brilliant, and will end up helping both Paizo and game stores. Assuming the quality is what I expect it to be, Pathfinder's biggest challenge is that 4e players normally wouldn't even consider it. Anonymity is the enemy. The pdf price will cause a large amount of people to check it out who wouldn't have otherwise, and some of those people will buy the print copy. By doing this, Paizo isn't cannibalizing their sales... they're expanding their potential market size. Game stores will benefit from the additional print sales this produces.
Kudos, you guys. Great decision.
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